hopper loads


ed_mines
 

How can you tell anthracite from bituminous coal? Do they look the same?
My recollection is that anthracite is really hard and difficult to
break.

I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

Should model anthracite and bituminous coal loads appear different?

As long as I can remember (I was born in 1949) most roads were made
from asphalt and small small stones. Were these stones (or larger rocks)
common hopper loads? Was this type of road common in the '40s?

I recall there's a third type of coal - lignite. I saw this up close
when I lived in Germany. It almost looked like like Celotex ceiling
tiles. Was this a common hopper load in the US anywhere in the '40s?

How about coke? What does that look like? How common was it as a load
in the '40s? Were special coke cars always used?

I'm sorry to hear that Tim Gilbert passed away. I always enjoyed his
contributions. He'll be missed.

Ed Mines


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:


I recall there's a third type of coal - lignite. I saw this up close
when I lived in Germany. It almost looked like like Celotex ceiling
tiles. Was this a common hopper load in the US anywhere in the '40s?
There was a certain amount of lignite mined in North Dakota, but it
wasn't shipped very far; after all, the only reason for trying to burn
the "brown dirt" was that it was cheap, and shipping charges negated
that advantage. The Northern Pacific burned lignite in their
locomotives, at least for a while, and had to use larger than normal
fireboxes to get adequate BTUs. The Soo Line bought it for heating
coal, which led to all sorts of stories from old time agents about
flitching "locomotive coal" (bituminous) to get the stoves hotter
during the coldest weather.

Lignite doesn't weather well; it dissolves in the rain and returns to
the from whence it came. Therefore what little lignite that shipped by
rail went in boxcars. I've seen a picture of the Washburn Mine loading
tipple during the WWI era, and they were loading boxcars exclusively.


How about coke? What does that look like? How common was it as a load
in the '40s? Were special coke cars always used?
Coke is flat black to dark gray in color. It is considerably lighter
in weight than coal, so a typical coal hopper couldn't haul a full
load. The eastern roads had special hoppers with "coke racks"
extending their sides for added cubic capacity. Old boxcars and
stockcars with their roofs removed were also common. Roads that had
little coke traffic just used boxcars or stockcars.

I'm sorry to hear that Tim Gilbert passed away. I always enjoyed his
contributions. He'll be missed.
I'll miss Tim's contributions also.

Dennis


Ljack70117@...
 

A lot of the so call "Black Top" roads are oil and sand. Interstate 84 in Idaho is made that way. They spray oil on the road and then spread sand on the oil. The use rollers to roll the sand into the oil but then let the traffic finish the job. When they were redoing a state road north of Salina Ks we got gondola loads of sand from the McPherson branch and then went east to the Solomon branch and then up to Bennington Ks. These sand trains were about 50 cars twice a week all summer long.
Have you ever seen an concrete asphalt road/street?
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@comcast.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Aug 15, 2007, at 11:11 AM, ed_mines wrote:

How can you tell anthracite from bituminous coal? Do they look the same?
My recollection is that anthracite is really hard and difficult to
break.

I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

Should model anthracite and bituminous coal loads appear different?

As long as I can remember (I was born in 1949) most roads were made
from asphalt and small small stones. Were these stones (or larger rocks)
common hopper loads? Was this type of road common in the '40s?

I recall there's a third type of coal - lignite. I saw this up close
when I lived in Germany. It almost looked like like Celotex ceiling
tiles. Was this a common hopper load in the US anywhere in the '40s?

How about coke? What does that look like? How common was it as a load
in the '40s? Were special coke cars always used?

I'm sorry to hear that Tim Gilbert passed away. I always enjoyed his
contributions. He'll be missed.

Ed Mines




Yahoo! Groups Links



proto48er
 

Guys -

Down here in south Texas, lignite was shipped in gondolas, and
sometimes in hoppers. It was mined extensively in the Rockdale area
for many years (still is today) and has a surprisingly high BTU
value. It was shipped in gons on the I-GN (MP) to Austin and burned
in the U of Texas powerplant until the early 1950's.

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:

There was a certain amount of lignite mined in North Dakota, but it
wasn't shipped very far; after all, the only reason for trying to
burn
the "brown dirt" was that it was cheap, and shipping charges negated
that advantage. The Northern Pacific burned lignite in their
locomotives, at least for a while, and had to use larger than normal
fireboxes to get adequate BTUs. The Soo Line bought it for heating
coal, which led to all sorts of stories from old time agents about
flitching "locomotive coal" (bituminous) to get the stoves hotter
during the coldest weather.

Lignite doesn't weather well; it dissolves in the rain and returns
to
the from whence it came. Therefore what little lignite that shipped
by
rail went in boxcars. I've seen a picture of the Washburn Mine
loading
tipple during the WWI era, and they were loading boxcars
exclusively.


ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:
Coke is flat black to dark gray in color.
How about particle size?

Was there much coke being shipped? I recall it was a byproduct of
illuminating gas and some utilities burned coke in special plants.

Ed


Jim Williams <wwww5960@...>
 

Anthracite is the hardest, shiny and highest heat yield. Bituminous is softer (still brittle) with a lower heat yield. It's nic eto have a simple classification, but just remember they grade into each other.......Best Jim Williams

ed_mines <ed_mines@yahoo.com> wrote: How can you tell anthracite from bituminous coal? Do they look the same?
My recollection is that anthracite is really hard and difficult to
break.

I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

Should model anthracite and bituminous coal loads appear different?

As long as I can remember (I was born in 1949) most roads were made
from asphalt and small small stones. Were these stones (or larger rocks)
common hopper loads? Was this type of road common in the '40s?

I recall there's a third type of coal - lignite. I saw this up close
when I lived in Germany. It almost looked like like Celotex ceiling
tiles. Was this a common hopper load in the US anywhere in the '40s?

How about coke? What does that look like? How common was it as a load
in the '40s? Were special coke cars always used?

I'm sorry to hear that Tim Gilbert passed away. I always enjoyed his
contributions. He'll be missed.

Ed Mines






---------------------------------
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Bob Karig <karig@...>
 

I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

Should model anthracite and bituminous coal loads appear different?
Anthracite has a sheen to it.

Both anthracite and bituminous were sized. Lump was greater than 4". Sizes progressed downward from there to less than half an inch, or smaller.

So you could have a train with each hopper car having a different sized coal.

Bob Karig


Charlie Vlk
 

I have a copy of a 1901 Burlington Route "Special Instructions Regarding Fuel Economy." that goes into great detail regarding coal, boiler water, combustion, firing, etc..
It lists a number of coals (including Liginite) and rates their efficiencies against Streator (IL) coal as a benchmark of 100. For some reason Liginite is discussed but not
rated in the table. Liginite is a young soft coal that has a lot of shale and other waste material in it and being soft it has a high water content. It has a fairly good gaseous content and was used by the CB&Q (mostly later than this publication) extensively. The "Q" locomotives so fired were identified with a Yellow square on the tender coal bunker sidesheet and had special grates and additional netting in the smokebox, which was often extended to deal with the high ash content.
The point for steam era freight cars is that a number of railroads used different grades of coal in locomotive service with the higher grades reserved for passenger use. As Dennis pointed out different coals were supplied for stove heating. "Company" coal and mines are perhaps an under-represented source of traffic on our railroads....and a determiner of car distribution and use as well.
Charlie Vlk


Ljack70117@...
 

I see an error. I meant cement asphalt.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@comcast.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Aug 15, 2007, at 11:55 AM, Ljack70117@comcast.net wrote:

A lot of the so call "Black Top" roads are oil and sand. Interstate
84 in Idaho is made that way. They spray oil on the road and then
spread sand on the oil. The use rollers to roll the sand into the oil
but then let the traffic finish the job. When they were redoing a
state road north of Salina Ks we got gondola loads of sand from the
McPherson branch and then went east to the Solomon branch and then up
to Bennington Ks. These sand trains were about 50 cars twice a week
all summer long.
Have you ever seen an concrete asphalt road/street?
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@comcast.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left




On Aug 15, 2007, at 11:11 AM, ed_mines wrote:

How can you tell anthracite from bituminous coal? Do they look the
same?
My recollection is that anthracite is really hard and difficult to
break.

I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

Should model anthracite and bituminous coal loads appear different?

As long as I can remember (I was born in 1949) most roads were made
from asphalt and small small stones. Were these stones (or larger
rocks)
common hopper loads? Was this type of road common in the '40s?

I recall there's a third type of coal - lignite. I saw this up close
when I lived in Germany. It almost looked like like Celotex ceiling
tiles. Was this a common hopper load in the US anywhere in the '40s?

How about coke? What does that look like? How common was it as a load
in the '40s? Were special coke cars always used?

I'm sorry to hear that Tim Gilbert passed away. I always enjoyed his
contributions. He'll be missed.

Ed Mines




Yahoo! Groups Links





Yahoo! Groups Links



Tim O'Connor
 

Technically, bitumen and sand. Crude oil won't adhere. Besides
sand, you can use gravel, ash, steel mill slag, crushed glass, and
sometimes, shredded tires. Nowadays they use synthetic mats and
spread the bitumen on top of that and then add sand etc to soak up
the excess.

Tim "it's all macadam to me" O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Ljack70117@comcast.net
A lot of the so call "Black Top" roads are oil and sand.


np328
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote: How
can you tell anthracite from bituminous coal? Do they look the same?

Here is a listing from a fireman's instructional book in our NPRHA
archives that was donated by the family of Bill Shannon, one time
head of the NP Mechanical Dept.

Coal Classifications

Super Anthracite - High carbon/low impurities content/hard to start/
appearance- black and of pure carbon
Anthracite - used for domestic heating and coking/almost pure
carbon/few impurities/appearance/black
Sub-Anthracite - used for domestic heating and coking/good carbon
Bituminous/Good carbon content/some impurities/low-no moisture
Sub-Bituminous- Iowa/Illinois coals typical/impurities/some
moisture/blackish brown
Lignite-low carbon content/measurable water content/higher impurities
content/brown
Peat- high moisture/low carbon content

Also it mentions that Anthracite was BTU stable for a matter of
months, Lignite for a matter of weeks before it went slack.

Were special coke cars always used?

In the St.Paul, MN Kopper Coke yard, coal came in in gondolas
and hoppers and left in the same. From reports that I have read,
mostly NP Rwy reports, it was the consignee who determined what type
of car would be used to deliver the coke.

James Dick - NPRHA Archives
St. Paul, MN


armprem
 

In my youth during the depth of the Great Depression people would walk along the tracks carrying burlap bags.Their mission was to pick up coal along the tracks that had spilled from locomotives and cars.Bituminous (Soft) coal was burned in locomotives and in many homes as the prime source of heat.Often seen dowagers would boldly venture near the coal chutes where the picking was more rewarding.Railroad men would turn a blind eye toward the less fortunate.Railroads made little effort to salvage spilled coal.Soft coal had a special aroma.Anthracite (Hard) coal was more expensive and was the coal of choice for home heating as it burned cleaner and had a higher BTU.Some companies dyed their coal as an advertizing gimmick i.e. Blue Coal.There were several grades of coal and often came in several sizes.If I recall correctly stoker coal was smaller.Hope this adds some fuel to the fire.<G> Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@mchsi.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:40 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: hopper loads


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:


I recall there's a third type of coal - lignite. I saw this up close
when I lived in Germany. It almost looked like like Celotex ceiling
tiles. Was this a common hopper load in the US anywhere in the '40s?
There was a certain amount of lignite mined in North Dakota, but it
wasn't shipped very far; after all, the only reason for trying to burn
the "brown dirt" was that it was cheap, and shipping charges negated
that advantage. The Northern Pacific burned lignite in their
locomotives, at least for a while, and had to use larger than normal
fireboxes to get adequate BTUs. The Soo Line bought it for heating
coal, which led to all sorts of stories from old time agents about
flitching "locomotive coal" (bituminous) to get the stoves hotter
during the coldest weather.

Lignite doesn't weather well; it dissolves in the rain and returns to
the from whence it came. Therefore what little lignite that shipped by
rail went in boxcars. I've seen a picture of the Washburn Mine loading
tipple during the WWI era, and they were loading boxcars exclusively.


How about coke? What does that look like? How common was it as a load
in the '40s? Were special coke cars always used?
Coke is flat black to dark gray in color. It is considerably lighter
in weight than coal, so a typical coal hopper couldn't haul a full
load. The eastern roads had special hoppers with "coke racks"
extending their sides for added cubic capacity. Old boxcars and
stockcars with their roofs removed were also common. Roads that had
little coke traffic just used boxcars or stockcars.

I'm sorry to hear that Tim Gilbert passed away. I always enjoyed his
contributions. He'll be missed.
I'll miss Tim's contributions also.

Dennis




Yahoo! Groups Links



gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:

There was a certain amount of lignite mined in North Dakota, but it
wasn't shipped very far; after all, the only reason for trying to burn
the "brown dirt" was that it was cheap, and shipping charges negated
that advantage. The Northern Pacific burned lignite in their
locomotives, at least for a while, and had to use larger than normal
fireboxes to get adequate BTUs. The Soo Line bought it for heating
coal, which led to all sorts of stories from old time agents about
flitching "locomotive coal" (bituminous) to get the stoves hotter
during the coldest weather.

Lignite doesn't weather well; it dissolves in the rain and returns to
the from whence it came. Therefore what little lignite that shipped by
rail went in boxcars. I've seen a picture of the Washburn Mine loading
tipple during the WWI era, and they were loading boxcars exclusively.
Mr. Storzek,
Much lignite is still mined in North Dakota, but today it is shipped out via powerline,
as it is converted into electricity at powerplants situated right at the mines. Some is
converted into byproducts at a coal gasification plant near Beulah. You may be interested
to know that in the steam era, there was a Baukol-Noonan mine tipple located south of
Noonan on the GN's Crosby branch that loaded hoppers and presumably drop bottom
gons as well. Today the old mine pits (pre-reclamation era) are fishing lakes. You can see
a picture of the tipple, along with a short history of the company (now BNI coal) at:

http://www.bnicoal.com/about/history.htm

Those hopper cars are very similar to the recent IC hoppers produced by Sunshine, but
are 4 feet longer inside (approx 31' IL on the IC vs. 35' on the GN). Hey, that gives me a
great idea. I happen to know of a certain kit manufacturer who has produced GN prototype
kits in injection molded styrene, who seem to be lacking an offset twin in their product
line. <g>.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


Tim O'Connor
 

Hey, don't get greedy! Accurail's already given you two unique-to-GN
freight cars (and acquired a third one from McKean) so give some other
railroads a chance! Seems to me that Accurail SORELY lacks a 3-dome
tank car...

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "gn3397" <heninger@medicine.nodak.edu>

I happen to know of a certain kit manufacturer who has produced GN
prototype kits in injection molded styrene, who seem to be lacking an
offset twin in their product line. <g>.


CJ Riley
 

There was much coke shipped through the 50s in western PA. The Connellsville
are was loaded with beehive oven complexes that shipped by hopper. While some
large steel mills may have had their own in-house coke plants,(J&L Hazlewood
for example) it was my understanding they shipped coke to their mills that
weren't making coke: a very nasty, dirty, and smelly operation not welcomed by
the locals when a new mill was opened. Keep in mind that foundries and similar
industries used coke and wouldnot have in-house capabilities.

CJ Riley
Formerly of Pittsburgh,
now in smoke free Bainbridge Island WA


--- ed_mines <ed_mines@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:
Coke is flat black to dark gray in color.
How about particle size?

Was there much coke being shipped? I recall it was a byproduct of
illuminating gas and some utilities burned coke in special plants.

Ed



____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7


Ray Meyer
 

Bituminous - As I recall that's short for by two minutes it's gone....


--
Atty Raymond G. Meyer
110 E. Main St
Port Washington, WI 53074
262-284-5566
rgmeyer2@gmail.com


Philip Dove <philip.dove@...>
 

The coke I knew for burning in a domestic stove (hand fired) was about an inch in size and more irregular in shape than a lump of coal because it was porous because all the gas had been baked out (basically coke is coal that has been heated to red heat in an absence of air so it can't burn) Sometimes coke was a by product of making town gas, and tar products, sometimes the coke was what you wanted and the rest was a waste product. Coke is a lot harder to ignite but burns hot and with no smoke. Some coke that I saw was the size of an adults fist. The coke was porous IE honeycombed with very fine pin holes. At a quick glance a heap of coke was black but it was a very dark silvery grey. If I needed to make a model of a coke load I would get some of that very dark grey dense foam used for packing, such as in a Bachmann spectrum box and mince it up small. real coke would just be dust by the time you'd finished trying to crush it to HO scale. Loads of coke straight from the coke oven had to be damped down with water and trucks would be literally steaming. Sometimes you wondered whether the load was smouldering or steaming. In the UK up to the late 1950s one of the main brands of "gasoline" was made with a significant percentage of benzole derived from coal during the coking process. Coke could also be used in filter beds for Sewage farms. Some Kind of bacteria was added to the coke and then dilute sewage was sprayed onto the colonized coke and the fluid that filtered through the beds became treated sewage rather than very noxious raw sewage. Sewage farms would only require loads of coke when they first built the treatment beds, so don't direct carloads of coke to the sewage farm.

----- Original Message -----
From: ed_mines
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 15 August 2007 17:21
Subject: [STMFC] Re: hopper loads


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:
> Coke is flat black to dark gray in color.

How about particle size?

Was there much coke being shipped? I recall it was a byproduct of
illuminating gas and some utilities burned coke in special plants.

Ed


gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@... wrote:


Hey, don't get greedy! Accurail's already given you two unique-to-GN
freight cars (and acquired a third one from McKean) so give some other
railroads a chance! Seems to me that Accurail SORELY lacks a 3-dome
tank car...

Tim O'Connor
Yes, Mr. O'Connor, but the stockcar and boxcar don't exist yet in my era. <g>.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


tbarney2004
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@> wrote:
Coke is flat black to dark gray in color.
How about particle size?

Was there much coke being shipped? I recall it was a byproduct of
illuminating gas and some utilities burned coke in special plants.

Ed
In the vicinity of steel mills, unless produced on site, there would
be a lot inbound, as it (is/was) heavily used in steel production as
fuel and source of carbon in the blast furnaces themselves.

Tim Barney


CJ Riley
 

--- Bob Karig <karig@sprintmail.com> wrote:


I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

I don't know about anthracite, but many hopper loads of bituminous that I saw
were shiny. Coke was pretty dull.

CJ Riley



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