Topics

N&W G4 vs. CNJ rebuilt WE gondola


Pieter Roos
 

Hi all;

I'm planning on acquiring the Cryer Gray Foundry N&W G4 model as a
re-built CNJ war emergency gondola.

Does anyone see major differences between the N&W model and the CNJ
version? Or, for that matter, anything different from any other
railroad's rebuilding, except the Rock Island's corrugated panels?

http://www.cryergrayfoundry.com/projects/G4-gondola_home.shtml

If there are things that need changing I may get the unpainted instead
of painted black but unlettered model. BTW, it's S scale, so options
like Tichy or F&C versions don't work! :~{

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Pieter Roos


proto48er
 

Pieter -

I am an "O" scaler. I did the drawings for these cars for Pacific
Limited, an "O" scale importer, about ten years ago, and they were
imported from Korea in 2000.

At that time, we could not find any photos of CNJ/RDG cars as
composite cars. Furthermore, the CNJ/CRP cars had a cubic capacity
which indicated they were ALL STEEL very early - (by 1944?) - so I am
not convinced that all were really composite cars - maybe only a few
were! That was a pre-internet, simpler time, and that does not mean
that the photos of composite cars are not out there somewhere! I do
recall a photo of a steel conversion of the CNJ gon having (a) an
extra plate at the far ends of each side (the plate goes from the
bolster to the end of the side, and covers up the "open" area below
the 4" X 4" angle in the open air below the floor) and (b) ends with
THREE Y-shaped panels in them.

That being said, the N&W cars were UNIQUE among 52'-6" composite war
emergency gons in having only TWO Y-shaped panels in each drop end!
No other cars had these N&W style drop ends. Also, only the CNJ/RDG
cars had the little rectangular plates at the bottoms of the sides.
All other cars of this type had an opening from the bolster to the
end sill under the floor angle.

Some of the N&W cars, as built, had four side boards in each side;
some had five. All other cars built to that plan had five boards,
except LV, which had four also. This makes a difference in the rivet
pattern on the side braces. I cannot tell from the Crier Gray
website which one they modeled! CNJ/CRP cars probably had the five-
board configuration, if they started out as composite cars.

A prototype photo of the CNJ/CRP/RDG cars would help!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pieter_roos" <pieter_roos@...> wrote:

Hi all;

I'm planning on acquiring the Cryer Gray Foundry N&W G4 model as a
re-built CNJ war emergency gondola.

Does anyone see major differences between the N&W model and the CNJ
version? Or, for that matter, anything different from any other
railroad's rebuilding, except the Rock Island's corrugated panels?

http://www.cryergrayfoundry.com/projects/G4-gondola_home.shtml

If there are things that need changing I may get the unpainted
instead
of painted black but unlettered model. BTW, it's S scale, so options
like Tichy or F&C versions don't work! :~{

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Pieter Roos


Pieter Roos
 

Hi Mr. Knott;

Thank you for a VERY helpful reply. I have found a couple of CNJ
prototype photos (after rebuilding) and noted the differences you
mention, as well as the use of ladder stile type grab mounts on the
N&W car where CNJ used individual bolted on grabs.

The end difference is interesting. I assume that the "y" panels you
mention are the spaces between the reversed Dreadnaught ribs, which
leads some folks to call them "bifurcated" ends. It appears that the
CNJ used normally oriented ends rather than inverted. Does the
difference in the end ribs and the number of boards on the sides
indicate a lower side height on the N&W cars? I find it hard to fathom
that there would have been different stamp patterns for the
Dreadnaught design ends, and to what purpose?

The result of all this is that I requested an unpainted version of the
car. I could fill in the side panels with styrene, but removing the
ladder styles and possibly the drop ends may require soldiering.

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:

Pieter -

I am an "O" scaler. I did the drawings for these cars for Pacific
Limited, an "O" scale importer, about ten years ago, and they were
imported from Korea in 2000.

At that time, we could not find any photos of CNJ/RDG cars as
composite cars. Furthermore, the CNJ/CRP cars had a cubic capacity
which indicated they were ALL STEEL very early - (by 1944?) - so I am
not convinced that all were really composite cars - maybe only a few
were! That was a pre-internet, simpler time, and that does not mean
that the photos of composite cars are not out there somewhere! I do
recall a photo of a steel conversion of the CNJ gon having (a) an
extra plate at the far ends of each side (the plate goes from the
bolster to the end of the side, and covers up the "open" area below
the 4" X 4" angle in the open air below the floor) and (b) ends with
THREE Y-shaped panels in them.

That being said, the N&W cars were UNIQUE among 52'-6" composite war
emergency gons in having only TWO Y-shaped panels in each drop end!
No other cars had these N&W style drop ends. Also, only the CNJ/RDG
cars had the little rectangular plates at the bottoms of the sides.
All other cars of this type had an opening from the bolster to the
end sill under the floor angle.

Some of the N&W cars, as built, had four side boards in each side;
some had five. All other cars built to that plan had five boards,
except LV, which had four also. This makes a difference in the rivet
pattern on the side braces. I cannot tell from the Crier Gray
website which one they modeled! CNJ/CRP cars probably had the five-
board configuration, if they started out as composite cars.

A prototype photo of the CNJ/CRP/RDG cars would help!

A.T. Kott


proto48er
 

Pieter -

You are welcome! My information is at home, and the computers are at
work, so I have a couple of corrections. The LV cars and the AT&SF
cars are different from the other cars in having a totally different
handbrake and end posts from the N&W/PRR/CRI&P/NYC/CNJ cars. The
CRI&P cars are oddballs because of their corrugated drop ends. The
N&W cars are oddballs because of their 2-panel Dred. drop ends - all
others had three panel Dred. drop ends. The LV and AT&SF cars all
had four (instead of five) boards in their sides.

Looking at the Crier Gray website, it looks like they got the N&W
ends correct (worse luck!). The N&W cars just had different ends for
some reason - they had the same dimensions of the other cars.
Interestingly, the models have a REALLY UNUSUAL brake gear
arrangement! This was similar to the arrangement on PRR cars of an
earlier era, so I cannot comment on whether it is correct or not for
the N&W cars. PRR also had these cars and they may have also had
these brake arrangements. I tried to call CG Found. today and ask
them where they got the information - no answer. I have a feeling
the brakes are correct for PRR and N&W, however. They PROBABLY would
not be correct for the other cars. I measured two AT&SF cars for the
basis of my drawings, and they had more conventional brake component
placement. No good info on this, however!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pieter_roos" <pieter_roos@...> wrote:

Hi Mr. Kott;

Thank you for a VERY helpful reply. I have found a couple of CNJ
prototype photos (after rebuilding) and noted the differences you
mention, as well as the use of ladder stile type grab mounts on the
N&W car where CNJ used individual bolted on grabs.

The end difference is interesting. I assume that the "y" panels you
mention are the spaces between the reversed Dreadnaught ribs, which
leads some folks to call them "bifurcated" ends. It appears that the
CNJ used normally oriented ends rather than inverted. Does the
difference in the end ribs and the number of boards on the sides
indicate a lower side height on the N&W cars? I find it hard to
fathom
that there would have been different stamp patterns for the
Dreadnaught design ends, and to what purpose?

The result of all this is that I requested an unpainted version of
the
car. I could fill in the side panels with styrene, but removing the
ladder styles and possibly the drop ends may require soldiering.

Pieter Roos


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

A. T. Kott wrote:
"The N&W cars are oddballs because of their 2-panel Dred. drop ends -
all others had three panel Dred. drop ends."

Three PANEL or three MAJOR CORRUGATIONS? A three panel end on a gon
seems highly unlikely.


Ben Hom


proto48er
 

Pieter -

The N&W cars had the same IH as the other cars. Those were just odd
Drednaught ends for a gon with that IH, for some reason. PRR's were
more "normal" with three panels.

When drop ends, or for that matter, any type of freight car ends of
Drednaught design are stamped in a press, each of the >----< shapes
have a single male-female pair of dies to form them. To make a
complete car end, several pairs of dies are placed in the press in
alignment to make an end stamping with the proper configuration. I
have always heard these die sets referred to as panels, but others
here probably know better!

I have no idea why the N&W ends were different; however, it may be
that (a) they were the first production models of these cars or (b)
the Pressed Steel Car Co. had some unused ends laying around! Note,
however, that the other(PRR/NYC/LV/AT&SF/CNJ) car ends are not three
FULL panels, rather 2-3/4+ panels.

N&W drop ends:
----------<
----------<
All others (except odd CRI&P):
>--------<
----------<
----------<
I hope the above example shows up on your computer!

Anyway, it could be that PSSCo. made an additional short die set to
make the other car ends more sturdy. Perhaps the N&W ends did not
perform as well as expected (they lasted a long time in service,
however).

Have plans been published for the N&W version of these cars??

A.T. Kott


Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

I think it had been mentioned before, but I think it is still lost in
here. The CNJ gons had a unique (for War Emergency gons) end with
rather wave-like corrugations, as used on the B&O AAR (Bethlehem)
gons. While it also hasn't been touched upon, the GTW cars had
fixed ends with "Pressed Steel" ends (this is my moniker and I mean
the company, not just plain old pressed steel and I refer to them
this way because of their use on other gons built by Pressed Steel
such as the D&RGW Emergency GS gons and the CRI&P Emergency drop end
gons that we have been discussing.)

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@speedwitch.com
www.speedwitch.com
(203) 747-0190