Trainman 70 ton Triple Hoppers


steel770862000 <steel77086@...>
 

Can anyone tell me for which railroads (esp. the B&O ??) the Trainman
70 ton,9panel hopper is accurate for,or at least as a stand-in??

Vince Altiere


rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

Vince Altiere wrote:

Can anyone tell me for which railroads (esp. the B&O ??) the Trainman
70 ton,9panel hopper is accurate for,or at least as a stand-in??
This car was discussed on the list when it first came out so search
the older messages for more information about correct prototypes for
this model.

I can address the B&O part of your question. The car is close to the
B&O Class W-11. These were a group of 300 cars originally built by
the Press Steel Car Company for the C&EI in 1951 termed the "PSC
Payloader welded hopper car". An article about them was published in
Railway Age, March 31, 1952, p. 38. These were 70-ton cars. They
were all welded and the Atlas Trainman car is of riveted construction.
The major dimensions are very close to the PSC cars built for the
C&EI and removing the rivets would be a first step in modeling this
car. The B&O purchased them in 1962, 290 cars remained, and that date
places them outside the date range for discussions by this group.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana


Tim O'Connor
 

Atlas calls this model an "AAR hopper". But Stewart also
made two "AAR hopper" cars from the same era. Were there
really three different 70 ton AAR design ex-post hoppers
being built in the 1950's? ( I think one of the Stewart
models was a NYC design, and the other the PRR H39? )

Tim O'Connor

Vince Altiere wrote:

Can anyone tell me for which railroads (esp. the B&O ??) the Trainman
70 ton,9panel hopper is accurate for,or at least as a stand-in??
This car was discussed on the list when it first came out so search
the older messages for more information about correct prototypes for
this model.

I can address the B&O part of your question. The car is close to the
B&O Class W-11. These were a group of 300 cars originally built by
the Press Steel Car Company for the C&EI in 1951 termed the "PSC
Payloader welded hopper car". An article about them was published in
Railway Age, March 31, 1952, p. 38. These were 70-ton cars. They
were all welded and the Atlas Trainman car is of riveted construction.
The major dimensions are very close to the PSC cars built for the
C&EI and removing the rivets would be a first step in modeling this
car. The B&O purchased them in 1962, 290 cars remained, and that date
places them outside the date range for discussions by this group.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana


steel77086@...
 

Tim,

As you probably know, the Accurail and Stewart triple hoppers were
of the offset design,while the
Trainman model has straight side panels. I have searched the archives but
found no reference to this partiocular model. Can anyone else help me??

Vince Altiere



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Tim O'Connor
 

?????????

Stewart produced several exterior-post ("ribbed") hoppers. And
we're not talking about Accurail in any case. Bowser now owns the
Stewart product line.

http://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/stew_14_panel/70%20ton%20Hoppers.htm

Tim

As you probably know, the Accurail and Stewart triple hoppers were
of the offset design,while the
Trainman model has straight side panels. I have searched the archives but
found no reference to this particular model. Can anyone else help me??
Vince Altiere


steel77086@...
 

Tim,

Sorry for my error. I forgot about the Bowser/Stewart strait side
hoppers. Anyway, I'm still trying to find find out which roads would be appropriate
for the Atlas /Trainman triple hopper.

Vince Altiere



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steel77086@...
 

Bob,

Thanks for the info. You have been very helpful.

Vince A.



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SUVCWORR@...
 

According to Atlas site the 9 panel 70t AAR open top hopper is a reccomended
AAR practice from the 1930's which "fell out of favor by the 1950's"

Rich Orr


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Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

I imagine Vince meant Accurail and Bowser, but the issue still remains that searching for "atlas hopper", "atlas trainman", or "atlas triple" doesn't uncover the earlier archived messages discussing the Atlas Trainman 70t triple hopper mentioned by an earlier poster.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor

?????????

Stewart produced several exterior-post ("ribbed") hoppers. And
we're not talking about Accurail in any case. Bowser now owns the
Stewart product line.

As you probably know, the Accurail and Stewart triple hoppers were
of the offset design,while the
Trainman model has straight side panels. I have searched the archives but
found no reference to this particular model. Can anyone else help me??
Vince Altiere
----- Original Message -----


rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

Vince Altiere wrote:

Tim,

As you probably know, the Accurail and Stewart triple hoppers
were
of the offset design,while the Trainman model has straight side
panels. I have searched the archives but
found no reference to this partiocular model. Can anyone else help
me??
Vince,

I had the wrong group. I and Jim Mischke discussed this model on the B&O
Yahoo Group. In my recent post on the STMFC Group I correctly
summarized the information about using these cars to model B&O Class
W-11 hopper cars. I am not sure what else you are looking for. Find the
Railway Age article and decide for yourself.

I have an Atlas model lettered for M & St. L and has the builder as ACF.
It is a model of a larger capacity stake-side, triple hopper and differs
from the other models previously available from Athearn (ex-MDC) and
Bowser (ex-Stewart).

There is a two page ad in the Car Builders Cyclopedia 19th ed. (1953)
for an ACF 70-ton, triple hopper with riveted construction with IL of
42'-8" that appears to be the closest prototype for the Atlas Trainman
model. The ad lists the dimensions for the cars and its capacity.
Unfortunately there are no photographic examples of any railroads that
purchased them. May be others can fill in that information.

This edition of the CBC also has an ad for the Press Steel Car welded
version of this hopper and there is a photo of a D&RW hopper #18950
built to this design by PSC. The inside width of the ACF car was
9'-7-3/4" and the PSC was 9'-10" so the PSC version had a slightly
larger cubic capacity of 2,785 cu. ft. compared to 2,734 cu. ft. for the
ACF version.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana


James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

Can anyone tell me for which railroads (esp. the B&O ??) the Trainman
70 ton,9panel hopper is accurate for,or at least as a stand-in??
The Atlas car is basically a hybrid welded/riveted car that AC&F built for C&O in the early and mid-1950s. The Stewart cars were: a late-1950s NYC ribside triple adopted as an alternate AAR standard; the PRR-C&O-N&W consortium car; and the AAR offset-side triple also recently done by Accurail.

David Thompson


Rich C
 

--- rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@indy.rr.com> wrote:

Vince Altiere wrote:

Can anyone tell me for which railroads (esp. the
B&O ??) the Trainman
70 ton,9panel hopper is accurate for,or at least
as a stand-in??
Vince,

I purchased one last month. I am modeling one in
Southern series 70300-73749 / 281000-281299. The model
is almost a spitting image of the AAR design of the
'50s. The article, drawings and photos, which I am
using are in the December 1990 Mainline Modeler.

Rich Christie
Future "J" fan and modeler



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Greg Martin
 

Vince,

I am not sure but I believe your original post was regarding this Atlas
Trainman hopper and correct me if I am wrong...

_http://www.atlastrainman.com/HOFreight/tmho70tonhopper.htm_
(http://www.atlastrainman.com/HOFreight/tmho70tonhopper.htm)

And if we are talking about the same car I know a couple of New Haven
lurkers here in the PNW that claim that this car is a very good fit for a New Haven
Hopper that I had taken photos of in Mingo Junction, Ohio in the early
1970's ( one of the two NH guys here was with me at the time) and albeit I don't
have one of the kits to measure it does look like a very good match got NH's PS
hopper and if I a not mistaken I believe they were purchased about 1953. The
NH numbers were 80000 to 80549 built by Pullman Standard and they did have
rivets on the exterior post.

What is not clear is how these cars differ from other cars on the market and
until one or both of these guys receive their cars. If it is correct and it
sure looks correct to me it will be a big plus for the NH guys, and other NH
steam era freight car.

Greg Martin






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rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

James D Thompson wrote:
The Atlas car is basically a hybrid welded/riveted car that AC&F built
for
C&O in the early and mid-1950s. The Stewart cars were: a late-1950s
NYC
ribside triple adopted as an alternate AAR standard; the PRR-C&O-N&W
consortium car; and the AAR offset-side triple also recently done by
Accurail.

David,

I respect your knowledge of hopper cars, but are you sure about what you
stated? I just checked Al Kresse's book on C&O hopper and gondolas and
cannot find any 70-ton C&O hoppers with the longer inside length as
modeled by the Atlas Trainman series hopper. As I stated in my earlier
post the Atlas triple hopper appears closest in dimensions to the one
ACF advertised in the 1953 Car Builders' Cyclopedia. The Atlas model
represents a triple hopper that is sightly longer (IL 42'-8") than the
ones built by ACF (IL 40'-6") or Bethlehem and others (IL 40'-8"). All
have of height of 10'-8" from the top of the rail to the top of the
side.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana


Tim O'Connor
 

Jim Eager wrote to MFCL 7-June-2005 about this model:
=============================================================
... basically a remake of the MDC 9-panel, which was never
great and definitely long in the tooth, but it looks to be
welded. If so, then C&EI/MP (longer), D&RGW (longer), MKT,
TNM, and TP/MP are it. If riveted then B&O, C&O, C&EI, C&I,
CG, CRR, FEC, GTW, M&StL, RDG, StLBE, and WM, although some
of those had arched or peaked ends.
=============================================================

Tom Haag then wrote:
=============================================================
I then compared it to drawings of a Southern AAR hopper car
that were in the 12/90 issue of MM. The Atlas car was about
a foot and a half longer that the car in the drawing.

Next I reread J. Eager's article on AAR 3-bay, nine-panel
hoppers in the 6/95 issue of RMJ. The article stated that
the Southern cars were a foot longer than the typical AAR
recommended design. Uh oh.

Finally the article said that the M&StL cars were two feet
longer than the typical car. Hmmmm.

So it appears that Atlas used a non-typical prototype to
model the AAR standard 9-panel hopper car.

So fans of the M&StL (and perhaps D&RGW and C&EI) may be
happy but modelers of RDG, CR, WM, CRR, C&O, C&I, CB&Q,
NH and others won't be.
============================================================

No one has said -- is the model riveted or welded? Were the
Southern cars riveted, or welded?

Tim O'Connor

James D Thompson wrote:

The Atlas car is basically a hybrid welded/riveted car that AC&F built for
C&O in the early and mid-1950s. The Stewart cars were: a late-1950s NYC
ribside triple adopted as an alternate AAR standard; the PRR-C&O-N&W
consortium car; and the AAR offset-side triple also recently done by Accurail.
David,

I respect your knowledge of hopper cars, but are you sure about what you
stated? I just checked Al Kresse's book on C&O hopper and gondolas and
cannot find any 70-ton C&O hoppers with the longer inside length as
modeled by the Atlas Trainman series hopper. As I stated in my earlier
post the Atlas triple hopper appears closest in dimensions to the one
ACF advertised in the 1953 Car Builders' Cyclopedia. The Atlas model
represents a triple hopper that is sightly longer (IL 42'-8") than the
ones built by ACF (IL 40'-6") or Bethlehem and others (IL 40'-8"). All
have of height of 10'-8" from the top of the rail to the top of the
side.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana


Scott Pitzer
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, SUVCWORR@... wrote:

According to Atlas site the 9 panel 70t AAR open top hopper is a
reccomended
AAR practice from the 1930's which "fell out of favor by the 1950's"

Rich Orr
Seems like Atlas may have taken that description from a much different
prototype, the offset triple (as modeled by Stewart and then
Accurail.) Who had anything even similar to this Atlas model in the
1930s?
Scott Pitzer


rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Jim Eager wrote to MFCL 7-June-2005 about this model:
=============================================================
... basically a remake of the MDC 9-panel, which was never
great and definitely long in the tooth, but it looks to be
welded. If so, then C&EI/MP (longer), D&RGW (longer), MKT,
TNM, and TP/MP are it. If riveted then B&O, C&O, C&EI, C&I,
CG, CRR, FEC, GTW, M&StL, RDG, StLBE, and WM, although some
of those had arched or peaked ends.
=============================================================

Tom Haag then wrote:
=============================================================
I then compared it to drawings of a Southern AAR hopper car
that were in the 12/90 issue of MM. The Atlas car was about
a foot and a half longer that the car in the drawing.

Next I reread J. Eager's article on AAR 3-bay, nine-panel
hoppers in the 6/95 issue of RMJ. The article stated that
the Southern cars were a foot longer than the typical AAR
recommended design. Uh oh.

Finally the article said that the M&StL cars were two feet
longer than the typical car. Hmmmm.

So it appears that Atlas used a non-typical prototype to
model the AAR standard 9-panel hopper car.

So fans of the M&StL (and perhaps D&RGW and C&EI) may be
happy but modelers of RDG, CR, WM, CRR, C&O, C&I, CB&Q,
NH and others won't be.
============================================================

No one has said -- is the model riveted or welded? Were the
Southern cars riveted, or welded?

Tim O'Connor

Tim,

I stated that the Atlas Trainman is of riveted construction at least
this is what is visible on the side stakes. David Thompson suggested a
hybrid construction with a welded center sill and riveted side stakes,
etc. and that agrees with the description in the ACF ad.

I have this model and it represents this longer version of the "70-ton
AAR standard side-stake triple hopper". Based on the information in the
1953 C.B. Cyc. apparently both PSC and ACF introduced their larger cars
at about the same time. The ad for Pullman-Standard describes their
PS-3 which also was designed with a larger cubic capacity than the "AAR"
standard hopper described in the Mainline Modeler article.

It is not a B&O prototype so I have not researched this car further.
The B&O continued to order and build the AAR 70-ton standard off-side
side triple and 50-ton twin hoppers until 1959.

Does anyone have information about an alternate AAR standard design for
triple hoppers issued in the early 1950s? Was there a committee report
generated, but not accepted by AAR members? Was the motivation from
outside the AAR; from the railroads and the car builders? In the
1950s, there appeared to be movement towards larger hopper cars as
illustrated by designed generated by the PRR-C&O-N&W consortium and the
two designs offered by ACF and PSC.

Bob Witt




James D Thompson wrote:

The Atlas car is basically a hybrid welded/riveted car that AC&F
built for
C&O in the early and mid-1950s. The Stewart cars were: a late-1950s
NYC
ribside triple adopted as an alternate AAR standard; the
PRR-C&O-N&W
consortium car; and the AAR offset-side triple also recently done
by Accurail.

David,

I respect your knowledge of hopper cars, but are you sure about what
you
stated? I just checked Al Kresse's book on C&O hopper and gondolas
and
cannot find any 70-ton C&O hoppers with the longer inside length as
modeled by the Atlas Trainman series hopper. As I stated in my
earlier
post the Atlas triple hopper appears closest in dimensions to the one
ACF advertised in the 1953 Car Builders' Cyclopedia. The Atlas model
represents a triple hopper that is sightly longer (IL 42'-8") than
the
ones built by ACF (IL 40'-6") or Bethlehem and others (IL 40'-8").
All
have of height of 10'-8" from the top of the rail to the top of the
side.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana


Rich C
 

The Southern car is riveted. On the model there are no
rivets that attach the bays to the sides however. Also
missing on the model are the poling pockets.


Tim you are right the model is slightly longer than
the drawing. Oh well, gonna build it anyway, its close
enough.


Rich Christie


--- Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> wrote:


Jim Eager wrote to MFCL 7-June-2005 about this
model:
=============================================================
... basically a remake of the MDC 9-panel, which
was never
great and definitely long in the tooth, but it
looks to be
welded. If so, then C&EI/MP (longer), D&RGW
(longer), MKT,
TNM, and TP/MP are it. If riveted then B&O, C&O,
C&EI, C&I,
CG, CRR, FEC, GTW, M&StL, RDG, StLBE, and WM,
although some
of those had arched or peaked ends.
=============================================================

Tom Haag then wrote:
=============================================================
I then compared it to drawings of a Southern AAR
hopper car
that were in the 12/90 issue of MM. The Atlas car
was about
a foot and a half longer that the car in the
drawing.

Next I reread J. Eager's article on AAR 3-bay,
nine-panel
hoppers in the 6/95 issue of RMJ. The article
stated that
the Southern cars were a foot longer than the
typical AAR
recommended design. Uh oh.

Finally the article said that the M&StL cars were
two feet
longer than the typical car. Hmmmm.

So it appears that Atlas used a non-typical
prototype to
model the AAR standard 9-panel hopper car.

So fans of the M&StL (and perhaps D&RGW and C&EI)
may be
happy but modelers of RDG, CR, WM, CRR, C&O, C&I,
CB&Q,
NH and others won't be.
============================================================

No one has said -- is the model riveted or welded?
Were the
Southern cars riveted, or welded?

Tim O'Connor



James D Thompson wrote:

The Atlas car is basically a hybrid
welded/riveted car that AC&F built for
C&O in the early and mid-1950s. The Stewart cars
were: a late-1950s NYC
ribside triple adopted as an alternate AAR
standard; the PRR-C&O-N&W
consortium car; and the AAR offset-side triple
also recently done by Accurail.

David,

I respect your knowledge of hopper cars, but are
you sure about what you
stated? I just checked Al Kresse's book on C&O
hopper and gondolas and
cannot find any 70-ton C&O hoppers with the longer
inside length as
modeled by the Atlas Trainman series hopper. As I
stated in my earlier
post the Atlas triple hopper appears closest in
dimensions to the one
ACF advertised in the 1953 Car Builders'
Cyclopedia. The Atlas model
represents a triple hopper that is sightly longer
(IL 42'-8") than the
ones built by ACF (IL 40'-6") or Bethlehem and
others (IL 40'-8"). All
have of height of 10'-8" from the top of the rail
to the top of the
side.

Bob Witt
Indianapolis, Indiana



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steel77086@...
 

Gentlemen,

Thanks to all who responded to my question re. the Atlas/Trainman 70
ton hoppers. I was
especially glad to learn that the B&O had a bunch(even if second-hand) in
the 1960's. I have a few which will
look good behind my GP-30's.

Vince Altiere



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steel77086@...
 

Jim,

As a long-time B&O fan, I appreciate your confirmation that the B&O
did indeed have these hoppers.
Now I can run a few of them on my layout with a "clear conscience". Can you
tell me if the B&O had
any other classes of STRAIGHT SIDE hoppers before the Chessie system era??
Or were most of their
cars still of the offset design? Thanks again.

Vince Altiere



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