Hi Folks

The recent discussion about the use of double sheathed cars for
carrying grain, and Richard Hendrickson's observation that "all the
granger RRs got double sheathed instead of single sheathed USRA box
cars" caused me to wonder whether this preference persisted into the
mid-twentieth century. I wanted to compare the DS/SS split for
granger and non-granger railroads using my 1949/1950 digital ORER.

However, I ran into the difficulty of not being able to find a
compendium of the granger RRs. A search of "granger" in the archives
of this list earlier today turned up 95 hits; none of them cataloged
the granger railroads, but some examples were given: GN, CMO, MILW,
RI, NP, CP, CN, CNW, SOO, ATSF, and UP. The M&STL, IC, and Cotton
Belt were also mentioned, but with some dubiousness.

Here is my tentative list of granger RRs (U.S. only). What do you
think should be added? What should be removed?

ATSF
CB&Q
CMO
CNW
FW&D
GN
KCS
KO&G
MILW
M-K-T
MP
MV
NP
RI
SLSF
SOO
T&P
UP

Thanks,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Could be wrong but I had always understood granger railroads were
those located generally in the middle to upper Midwest between the
Mississippi River and the Continental Divide.

Mike Fortney

It's just a nickname for Pete's sake! The Grange was a large
and powerful social/political organization throughout most of
the United States but especially strong wherever agriculture
was predominant -- like in the middle of the country. It had
a huge impact on the eventual regulation of railroads and
other social and economic causes. And it still exists! So a
railroad that served areas where the Grange was the strongest
can be called a "Granger" railroad. I think of the Milwaukee
as the quintessential Granger.

Tim O'Connor

--- In STMFC@..., "laramielarry" <ostresh@...> wrote:

Here is my tentative list of granger RRs (U.S. only). What do you
think should be added? What should be removed?

ATSF
CB&Q
CMO
CNW
FW&D
GN
KCS
KO&G
MILW
M-K-T
MP
MV
NP
RI
SLSF
SOO
T&P
UP

Thanks,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Mr. Ostresh,

As I understand it, the term "granger railroad" rather generically refers to a railroad that
serves a primarily agricultural traffic base. The term comes from the Grange movement of
the mid nineteenth century, which was started by farmers who were dissatisfied with the
increasing cost of railroad transport of their crops and livestock, among other things. The
Granger movement's political activism led to the Munn vs. Illinois Supreme Court ruling of
1876, which held that grain elevators and railroads, althought private businesses, were
acting as public utilities by virtue of their monopoly power in certain areas, and were
therefore subject to state regulation, notably of rates for transportation of goods. Several
state railroad commissions were set up after this decision, with the power to regulate intra
and interstate commerce. In 1886, in a case referred to as "the Wabash case", the Court
weakened this power by the states to regulate interstate commerce, which eventually led
to the formation of the Interstate Commerce Commission. There were a few attempts by
farmers to build their own railway lines to transport goods to market, but most of these
either failed or were eventually purchased by larger, established railroads. Their biggest
success was federal regulation of the railroads, which was the first industry in American
history to be so regulated.

Anyway, I don't think the term "granger railroad" was specifically given to any railroad. If I
am wrong, I would love to be corrected. When I think of granger railroads, I think of
Midwestern railroads such as:

C&NW, CRI&P, CMO, GN, NP, M&St.L, CB&Q, Milwaukee, Soo Line, etc.

Here is a link with a brief overview of the movement:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Patrons_of_Husbandry_(The_Grange)

You can also find more information if you google the terms "granger movement" and
"granger railroad".

As always, comments, criticisms, and corrections are most welcome.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND

Hi,
How about the CGW, C&S, IC, TP&W, M&StL and GM&O

gn3397 <heninger@...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., "laramielarry" <ostresh@...> wrote:

Here is my tentative list of granger RRs (U.S. only). What do you
think should be added? What should be removed?

ATSF
CB&Q
CMO
CNW
FW&D
GN
KCS
KO&G
MILW
M-K-T
MP
MV
NP
RI
SLSF
SOO
T&P
UP

Thanks,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Mr. Ostresh,

As I understand it, the term "granger railroad" rather generically refers to a railroad that
serves a primarily agricultural traffic base. The term comes from the Grange movement of
the mid nineteenth century, which was started by farmers who were dissatisfied with the
increasing cost of railroad transport of their crops and livestock, among other things. The
Granger movement's political activism led to the Munn vs. Illinois Supreme Court ruling of
1876, which held that grain elevators and railroads, althought private businesses, were
acting as public utilities by virtue of their monopoly power in certain areas, and were
therefore subject to state regulation, notably of rates for transportation of goods. Several
state railroad commissions were set up after this decision, with the power to regulate intra
and interstate commerce. In 1886, in a case referred to as "the Wabash case", the Court
weakened this power by the states to regulate interstate commerce, which eventually led
to the formation of the Interstate Commerce Commission. There were a few attempts by
farmers to build their own railway lines to transport goods to market, but most of these
either failed or were eventually purchased by larger, established railroads. Their biggest
success was federal regulation of the railroads, which was the first industry in American
history to be so regulated.

Anyway, I don't think the term "granger railroad" was specifically given to any railroad. If I
am wrong, I would love to be corrected. When I think of granger railroads, I think of
Midwestern railroads such as:

C&NW, CRI&P, CMO, GN, NP, M&St.L, CB&Q, Milwaukee, Soo Line, etc.

Here is a link with a brief overview of the movement:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Patrons_of_Husbandry_(The_Grange)

You can also find more information if you google the terms "granger movement" and
"granger railroad".

As always, comments, criticisms, and corrections are most welcome.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND






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Tim O'Connor wrote:

So a railroad that served areas where the Grange was the strongest
can be called a "Granger" railroad. I think of the Milwaukee
as the quintessential Granger.

I agree with Tim, a granger railroad served areas that were primarily
agricultural. My quintessential example of a Granger railroad has always been the
CB&Q.

Jerry Michels




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You are forgetting the CGW. They retained very few DS cars after 1930 or so, perhaps a few.

Tom Baker
bakert@...

________________________________

michael bishop <goldrod_1@...> wrote:
How about the CGW, C&S, IC, TP&W, M&StL and GM&O

And the P&E, TStL&W, LE&W, L&M, Alton, CMO, FtDD&S, A&N, BCR&N, and any other of the hundred plus smaller Midwestern roads that were absorbed into larger systems before the Depression?

Ray Breyer




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Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

If you review a lot of the literature I believe you will find that the term “granger” roads was applied to railroads that had most of their trackage in that area of IL, MO, KA, NE, IA, WI, MN, SD, ND. I would not say that a railroad that had most of its trackage elsewhere was a granger road.

By the those criteria, here’s how they fall.

Definte granger roads. CB&Q, CMO, CNW, MILW, RI, SOO, CGW, M&StL, GM&O (C&A)

Marginal granger KO&G, M-K-T, MV, TP&W, IC, SLSF

Not granger roads. ATSF, FW&D, GN, KCS, MP, NP, T&P, UP, C&S, GM&O (GM&N)


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The TP&W had 95% of it track in IL right through the major corn belt of IL How does it rank as a marginal granger road. In about every town that it went through it went by the local Grange Hall.

Michael





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the TP&W was primarly a bridge route across centeral Illinois.?1. this created a Chicago bypass?for other roads and generated its highest source of income? 2. a very small income was generated on line----jim young

I would think you would then have to include the Wabash, since it was in the law suit ...

--

Allen Rueter
StLouis MO




---


Mr. Ostresh,



.... In 1886, in a case referred to as "the Wabash case", the Court

weakened this power by the states to regulate interstate commerce, which eventually led

to the formation of the Interstate Commerce Commission.

....


Sincerely,

Robert D. Heninger

Stanley, ND









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Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
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I think part of our thinking was molded by the mid-20th century experience:
railroads like C&NW and Milwaukee with huge networks of branch lines over
the Northern Plains States - look at the old maps and the lines look like
capillaries in the human body - with light rail, used heavily only at
harvest time. And usually in and out of receivership.

I would add to the list of granger railroads the wonderfully ambitious
Midland Continental, which never quite reached either Winnipeg or the Gulf
of Mexico, but certainly served North Dakota. Once you begin thinking about
marginal short lines that never quite made it to 1950, the list grows
exponentially.

Regards,
William Bryk

Hi Larry,

You have raised an interesting classification.

I would think MSTL is a clear granger running in Iowa, Minn and northern Ill.

You kicked out SSW, which is OK; but then I would think KCS would also be out. And Frisco is a real question running into Texas. OK and Kansas, but also into the deep South (Florida).

You should get lots of suggestions on this question.

Ted

At 09:25 PM 8/29/2007, you wrote:

Hi Folks
The M&STL, IC, and Cotton
Belt were also mentioned, but with some dubiousness.

Here is my tentative list of granger RRs (U.S. only). What do you
think should be added? What should be removed?

FW&D
GN
KCS
KO&G
MILW
M-K-T
MP
MV
SLSF
SOO
T&P
UP

Thanks,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

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847-697-5353 or 5366
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http://RailsUnlimited.ribbonrail.com/

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Ted wrote:

You kicked out SSW, which is OK; but then I would
think KCS would also be out. And Frisco is a real
question running into Texas. OK and Kansas, but also
into the deep South (Florida)

SSW a.k.a. the Cotton Belt had most of its territory in
Southeast Missouri, Arkansas and Texas. IIRC the main
agricultural products were rice, beans, milo, and of
course cotton.

Somehow I don't think any of the above would qualify
it as a "granger" road.

Shawn Beckert

On Aug 30, 2007, at 8:25 AM, Malcolm Laughlin wrote:

If you review a lot of the literature I believe you will find that the
term �granger� roads was applied to railroads that had most of their
trackage in that area of IL, MO, KA, NE, IA, WI, MN, SD, ND. I would
not say that a railroad that had most of its trackage elsewhere was a
granger road.

By the those criteria, here�s how they fall.

Definte granger roads. CB&Q, CMO, CNW, MILW, RI, SOO, CGW, M&StL,
GM&O (C&A)

Marginal granger KO&G, M-K-T, MV, TP&W, IC, SLSF

Not granger roads. ATSF, FW&D, GN, KCS, MP, NP, T&P, UP, C&S, GM&O
(GM&N)

Any criteria which render RRs like the Santa Fe, Great Northern, and
Northern Pacific non-granger RRs are obviously false and misleading.
All three railroads handled vast amounts of agricultural traffic,
especially grain shipments, from the regions along their routes that
were east of the Rocky Mountains. The fact that they had main lines
extending to the Pacific Coast is, in the context of this discussion,
irrelevant. How does the MILW, which also had a main line to the
Pacific Coast, qualify as a granger RR but not the GN and NP? And the
Santa Fe transported far more grain and other agricultural products
than, for example, the CGW, M&StL, or Alton. A granger railroad was
any railroad that hauled large amounts of grain and other ag products
from the states between the Mississippi River and the Front Range.
Never mind where else it went or what other sources of traffic it had.
Any other definition renders the term meaningless.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Webster's Third New International Dictionary," in general an excellent
reference on railroad-related terms, says simply that "granger" in our
context means "a grain-carrying railroad." That's probably too simple to
resolve this controversy, but maybe it's the controversy that's too
complicated.

Have a good weekend,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142

I believe the late David P. Morgan, editor of TRAINS magazine in the
1940s-1970s, coined the term "granger railroad," but I have no hard
evidence to support that statement.

Anybody else know?

Bob Edmonson
Maryland, near Wash. D.C.

How does the MILW, which also had a main line to the
Pacific Coast, qualify as a granger RR but not the GN and NP?

Fairly easily, given that the grange movement was of the last decades
of the 1800's, at which time the Milwaukee had not yet added the "&
Pacific" to their name, and was a RR serving Chicago from St. Paul &
Kansas City, with a wide branchline network in place to haul the
grain.

Neither the GN nor the NP had the extensive midwestern branch network
comparable to that of the MILW. Branches, yes; just not to the same
level.

The grange itself peaked politically 1880ish, primarily in the Upper
Midwestern states of Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Wisconsin. Given
that the major focus of the Grange was against the monopolistic RR
tactics of the day, it makes sense that the term Granger Road would
apply mostly to those roads in the fight. Which doesn't mean that
the SSW or MKT didn't haul grain, they just weren't in the regions
where the Grange was most powerful and where the lexicon was most
influenced.


--
david d zuhn, St Paul Bridge & Terminal Ry., St. Paul, Minn.
http://stpaulterminal.org/

In regards to the granger donnybrook, could a railroad's being
considered a granger be determined by having a large percentage of
it's income earned by grain haulage be the way of determining as to
wether they were a granger road or not?

Eric Petersson