I know boxcars got everywhere imaginable - I have a photo from the early
1960s of a Florida East Coast boxcar behind a BC Hydro Railway locomotive
in New Westminster - but what about other types of cars? I assume things
like ore cars wouldn't venture too far from their home roads (or perhaps
more likely, certain lines on their home roads). To variegate the rolling
stock collection, I'd like to add non-boxcar types from foreign roads,
perhaps distant ones, too, but am not certain as to what travelled how far
from home. Any insight would be very appreciated.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

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Frank Valoczy wrote:
"I know boxcars got everywhere imaginable - I have a photo from the
early 1960s of a Florida East Coast boxcar behind a BC Hydro Railway
locomotive in New Westminster - but what about other types of cars?
I assume things like ore cars wouldn't venture too far from their
home roads (or perhaps more likely, certain lines on their home
roads). To variegate the rolling stock collection, I'd like to add
non-boxcar types from foreign roads, perhaps distant ones, too, but
am not certain as to what travelled how far from home. Any insight
would be very appreciated."

Frank, the short answer is as follows:

- Flat cars and gons, though not as plentiful as boxcars, generally
shared similar use patterns with the exception of specially equipped
cars.

- Cars in coal service tended to be limited to specific regions.
Some cars are found far from home, but to far less an extent than
boxcars.

These are general guidelines only. For more details, check the
group archives, particularly the posts of Tim Gilbert, who analyzed
this subject at length.


Ben Hom

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"I know boxcars got everywhere imaginable - I have a photo from the
early 1960s of a Florida East Coast boxcar behind a BC Hydro Railway
locomotive in New Westminster - but what about other types of cars?
I assume things like ore cars wouldn't venture too far from their
home roads (or perhaps more likely, certain lines on their home
roads). To variegate the rolling stock collection, I'd like to add
non-boxcar types from foreign roads, perhaps distant ones, too, but
am not certain as to what travelled how far from home. Any insight
would be very appreciated."

Ben replied:

Frank, the short answer is as follows:

- Flat cars and gons, though not as plentiful as boxcars, generally
shared similar use patterns with the exception of specially equipped
cars.

- Cars in coal service tended to be limited to specific regions.
Some cars are found far from home, but to far less an extent than
boxcars.

I'll add:
Tank cars - After WWII, most of these were used in the delivery of refined products or chemicals. Road names were almost exclusively private and shipments were mostly local to regional.

Stock cars - Depending on the season, these could get quite far from home. PRR cars on the left coast and UP, ATSF & GN etc on the right coast were not unheard of. In addition to hauling stock for a variety of reasons, these were used to haul other cargoes out of season.

Reefers - Again, mostly private. However, these cars traveled nationwide. Originating roads for cargos often had fairly biased fleets (e.g. UP and SP almost all PFE, ATSF almost all SFRD) however terminating roads often had a mix. In addition, related companies like FGE/WFE/BRE pooled reefers to cover different harvests so you were likely to see BRE reefers in Georgia and FGE reefers in the Pacific NW.

You mention a Canadian example - if you are modeling Canada, the issue is very much more complicated due to the issues of international travel of cars.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
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Bruce and Ben, thanks for the info.

I mentioned the Canadian example mainly because that was the first that
came to mind; I'm actually modeling South Carolina in 1951. However,
wanting to have a few Canadian cars present for the sake of modeling
something 'closer to home: where can I find information regarding the
rules governing international movement of cars?

Also: has there ever been lists made of who the various SHPX/UTLX/GATX
tanks were leased out to?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"I know boxcars got everywhere imaginable - I have a photo from the
early 1960s of a Florida East Coast boxcar behind a BC Hydro Railway
locomotive in New Westminster - but what about other types of cars?
I assume things like ore cars wouldn't venture too far from their
home roads (or perhaps more likely, certain lines on their home
roads). To variegate the rolling stock collection, I'd like to add
non-boxcar types from foreign roads, perhaps distant ones, too, but
am not certain as to what travelled how far from home. Any insight
would be very appreciated."

Ben replied:

Frank, the short answer is as follows:

- Flat cars and gons, though not as plentiful as boxcars, generally
shared similar use patterns with the exception of specially equipped
cars.

- Cars in coal service tended to be limited to specific regions.
Some cars are found far from home, but to far less an extent than
boxcars.

I'll add:
Tank cars - After WWII, most of these were used in the delivery of
refined products or chemicals. Road names were almost exclusively
private and shipments were mostly local to regional.

Stock cars - Depending on the season, these could get quite far from
home. PRR cars on the left coast and UP, ATSF & GN etc on the right
coast were not unheard of. In addition to hauling stock for a
variety of reasons, these were used to haul other cargoes out of season.

Reefers - Again, mostly private. However, these cars traveled
nationwide. Originating roads for cargos often had fairly biased
fleets (e.g. UP and SP almost all PFE, ATSF almost all SFRD) however
terminating roads often had a mix. In addition, related companies
like FGE/WFE/BRE pooled reefers to cover different harvests so you
were likely to see BRE reefers in Georgia and FGE reefers in the
Pacific NW.

You mention a Canadian example - if you are modeling Canada, the
issue is very much more complicated due to the issues of
international travel of cars.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
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On Oct 16, 2007, at 1:19 PM, destron@... wrote:

Bruce and Ben, thanks for the info.

I mentioned the Canadian example mainly because that was the first that
came to mind; I'm actually modeling South Carolina in 1951. However,
wanting to have a few Canadian cars present for the sake of modeling
something 'closer to home: where can I find information regarding the
rules governing international movement of cars?

One of the most interesting sources of documentary information for you might be the photos from the Col. Chet McCoid (sp?) collection (Bob's Photos). Many of these were taken around Ft. Bragg in the early 1950s.

As for Canadian cars, the rules were pretty simple. IIRC, they could travel to the US with Canadian cargo. They could not, in general, travel between points in the US with domestic lading. I'm pretty sure that they could also return to Canada loaded.

Also: has there ever been lists made of who the various SHPX/UTLX/GATX
tanks were leased out to?

Not really. An early issue of the RPC covered the AC&F Type 27 and has much of that information for that design, and Ed Kaminski's AC&F tank car book offers a lot of information about original leases.
http://www.signaturepress.com/tank.html
However, tanks moved on and off lease with some frequency, so this data may not be terribly relevant for your dates.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
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On Oct 16, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

> Also: has there ever been lists made of who the various
SHPX/UTLX/GATX
> tanks were leased out to?

Not really. An early issue of the RPC covered the AC&F Type 27 and
has much of that information for that design, and Ed Kaminski's AC&F
tank car book offers a lot of information about original leases.
http://www.signaturepress.com/tank.html
However, tanks moved on and off lease with some frequency, so this
data may not be terribly relevant for your dates.

Bruce is correct, as usual. The tank car leasing companies obviously
kept such records but if any of them have survived, their whereabouts
remain a mystery. Photographic evidence indicates that tank car leases
sometimes lasted for a decade or more but often were much briefer, only
six months or a year. As is often the case, the only sure way to know
is to find photos of cars from the era you're modeling.

Richard Hendrickson

Bruce,

Interesting rule. How was it enforced before the days of computer
systems?

Russ

Russ Strodtz wrote:

Interesting rule. How was it enforced before the days of computer systems?

Like every other kind of accounting, including per diem: clerks with pencils. Well, sometimes even with typewriters. Those clerks just issued MT waybills back to Canada.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Would this rule hold true for cars that came from Mexico? And how much traffic did come Mexico in the 40s and 50s?

Michael Bishop

Russ Strodtz <railfreightcars@...> wrote:
Bruce,

Interesting rule. How was it enforced before the days of computer
systems?

Russ

As for Canadian cars, the rules were pretty simple. IIRC, they could
travel to the US with Canadian cargo. They could not, in general,
travel between points in the US with domestic lading. I'm pretty
sure that they could also return to Canada loaded.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

Tony,

Documentary evidence suggests otherwise.

Russ

During the wheat rush we did not care what was printed on the side of a box car. We used them for loading wheat.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

Tony said:

Like every other kind of accounting, including per diem: clerks
with pencils. Well, sometimes even with typewriters. Those clerks just
issued MT waybills back to Canada.

Russ replied

Tony,

Documentary evidence suggests otherwise.

Russ

Russ,

Documentary evidence shows that car clerks used something other than pencils and typewriters to route cars back to Canada? <G> (OK, maybe we should add in telephone and telegraph in some cases)

Now, if you meant to imply that documentary evidence shows that Canadian owned cars WERE used to ship between domestic US points, neither Tony nor I implied that to be false. You'll note that I said "They could not, IN GENERAL (emphasis added), travel between points in the US with domestic lading." That does not mean that they absolutely could not, nor does it mean that folks like Larry Jackman weren't willing to break those rules when they needed a car! Nor does it mean that Tony's comment on the method of enforcement of these rules, in direct answer to your question, was incorrect. Indeed, based on that method of enforcement, you can see how a few cars might have slipped through...

As I understand it, the rule on domestic US use of Canadian cars had to do with taxes. If a Canadian car was in service within the US, then the railroad needed to pay a tax on the car as the car itself was considered to be an imported good.

The bottom line is that Canadian cars on US roads should be considered to be either in transit to or from Canada unless direct evidence to the contrary is available, and that they were represented at very reduced proportions within the total US population of cars.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
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|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
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Russ nln,

Documentary evidence suggests what otherwise? That clerks did not
use pencils or typewriters? That they didn't issue MT waybills back
to Canada? Can you explain?

Rob Simpson


--- In STMFC@..., "Russ Strodtz" <railfreightcars@...>
wrote:

Tony,

Documentary evidence suggests otherwise.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October, 2007 02:00
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Car travel

Russ Strodtz wrote:

Interesting rule. How was it enforced before the days of computer
systems?

Like every other kind of accounting, including per diem: clerks
with pencils. Well, sometimes even with typewriters. Those clerks

just issued MT waybills back to Canada.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,

thompson@...

So, from this discussion and one I found in the archive, I'm concluding
that I can safely have a couple of Canadian cars in my rolling stock park,
and on occasion have them 'slip' into local service (like Larry Jackman
just mentioned, and like one of the messages on the subject in the
archives mentioned a Canadian car in NC loaded with sawdust for shipment
to eastern NC). I would echo Michael Bishop's question on Mexican cars,
though. Would an assumption similar to Canadian cars be valid? (PGE
reefers loaded with sockeye salmon from the BC coast and cars from Mexico
loaded with tequila?)

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Tony said:

Like every other kind of accounting, including per diem: clerks
with pencils. Well, sometimes even with typewriters. Those clerks just
issued MT waybills back to Canada.

Russ replied

Tony,

Documentary evidence suggests otherwise.

Russ

Russ,

Documentary evidence shows that car clerks used something other than
pencils and typewriters to route cars back to Canada? <G> (OK, maybe
we should add in telephone and telegraph in some cases)

Now, if you meant to imply that documentary evidence shows that
Canadian owned cars WERE used to ship between domestic US points,
neither Tony nor I implied that to be false. You'll note that I said
"They could not, IN GENERAL (emphasis added), travel between points
in the US with domestic lading." That does not mean that they
absolutely could not, nor does it mean that folks like Larry Jackman
weren't willing to break those rules when they needed a car! Nor
does it mean that Tony's comment on the method of enforcement of
these rules, in direct answer to your question, was incorrect.
Indeed, based on that method of enforcement, you can see how a few
cars might have slipped through...

As I understand it, the rule on domestic US use of Canadian cars had
to do with taxes. If a Canadian car was in service within the US,
then the railroad needed to pay a tax on the car as the car itself
was considered to be an imported good.

The bottom line is that Canadian cars on US roads should be
considered to be either in transit to or from Canada unless direct
evidence to the contrary is available, and that they were represented
at very reduced proportions within the total US population of cars.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
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I wonder if the war emergency from the end of 1941 to late 1945 was a basis for relaxing/ignoring the "tax" rule affecting movement of cars between the USA & Canada (and Mexico?) during those years. Certainly all sorts of work-arounds were developed for other purposes - such as hand pushing US planes across the border into Canada to avoid putting the US into the war before the end of '41. But I've never seen anything on this sort of approach to railway equipment.

Rob Kirkham

On Oct 17, 2007, at 1:37 AM, Russ Strodtz wrote:

Tony,
Documentary evidence suggests otherwise.

Care to provide any?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

destron@... wrote:

So, from this discussion and one I found in the archive, I'm
concluding that I can safely have a couple of Canadian cars in my
rolling stock park, and on occasion have them 'slip' into local
service (like Larry Jackman just mentioned, and like one of the
messages on the subject in the archives mentioned a Canadian car in
NC loaded with sawdust for shipment to eastern NC). I would echo
Michael Bishop's question on Mexican cars, though. Would an
assumption similar to Canadian cars be valid? (PGE reefers loaded
with sockeye salmon from the BC coast and cars from Mexico loaded
with tequila?)

Frank, per Dominion railroad statictics only about 10% of all Canadian
carloadings were destined to points in the US. Some of those would have
been using mty US marked cars being sent home.

As the CN and CP would have owned enough cars to take car of Canada's
traffic in a given year, it's a reasonable probability then that over time
there would be an average of not more than 10% of their cars beeing seen
south of the border at any given time. Some days would have more, some
less, but over time it would average out to around 10%.

If you take 10% of Canada's boxcar fleet and compute those cars as a
percentage of the total US boxcar fleet it works out to around 1.4% (early
1950's data). Now, looking at wheel reports, the numbers of Canadian cars
is unusually low relative to the total CP / CN fleet -- see, if there were
no issues at the border whatsoever you'd see about 15% of all boxcars were
marked CP or CN as that's what percentage their total fleet would be in the
US... but the analyized wheel reports show the numbers close to the expected
1.4%. Now you'd probably find distortions regionally... such as near
Buffalo or Seattle for instance as compared to, say, some tiny burg south of
Phoenix Arizona or in central Georgia. But I am of the opinion that once
they cleared the border choke points, the cars probably dispersed fairly
evenly.

So again, you need to first think of national averages -- 10% of ladings
going to the US means roughly 10% of boxcars seen in the US would be
Canadian... and then make whatever adjustments you deem correct to account
for seasonality, location, and possibly lading (somewhat lessor odds of
Canadian lumber being delivered to, say, a lumber center like Burns,
Oregon).

In the final analysis, I think you can justify that 1.4% w/ no difficulty.
But making it 15-20% will be either take a real stretch of imagination of a
fortuitous choice of locations.

Dave Nelson

Michael,

Yes, the same rule did hold true. As to how much traffic came north from Mexico I can not answer your question with regards to the late 40's or 1950's; but . . . In the early stages of World War II, the United States realized that Mexico as well as the rest of Latin America could furnish key materials required for the war effort. The Mexican government could not deliver the quantity of materials at the rate they were required with its railway system rundown and still trying to recover from the effects of the revolution. With negotiations between the two countries the UNITED STATES RAILWAY MISSION TO MEXICO was developed.

Sponsored by the Institute of Inter-American Transportation, a subsidiary of the Office of Inter-American Affairs (OIAA) and headed by Nelson A. Rockefeller, the mission greatly increased the ability of the Ferrocarriles Nacionales de Mexico (NdeM) to safely carry large amounts of supplies, especially to the United States. By the end of 1942 this essential traffic north reached an estimated 1,300,000 tons.

As a special note, the mission was the first massive American technical assistance program to a foreign country and as a measure of its success was instrumental in the development of the Marshall Plan of 1948.

Maybe others have additional information, when added to this could better answer your question.

You have a good day,

Jim Peters
Coquitlam, BC


To: STMFC@...: goldrod_1@...: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:18:41 -0700Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Car travel




Would this rule hold true for cars that came from Mexico? And how much traffic did come Mexico in the 40s and 50s?Michael BishopRuss Strodtz <railfreightcars@...> wrote:Bruce,Interesting rule. How was it enforced before the days of computersystems?Russ> > As for Canadian cars, the rules were pretty simple. IIRC, they could > travel to the US with Canadian cargo. They could not, in general, > travel between points in the US with domestic lading. I'm pretty > sure that they could also return to Canada loaded.>>> Regards> Bruce> > Bruce F. Smith> Auburn, AL---------------------------------Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.






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Russ,
If the cars were not returned "loaded or empty", what was their status.
Chuck Hladik



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Hmmm, I'm not so sure of your 10% figure Dave. Not that I can say it is incorrect, and I'd appreciate it if you could point to a figure somewhere, but....

According to the Dominion Bureau of Statistics Monthly Railway traffic Reports for the year ended December 31, 1953, the total of railway freight loaded at stations in Canada was 120,059,931 tons. In addition, a further 36,047,121 tons of freight entered Canada from elsewhere and moved over Canadian lines. Of that 36 million tons received from outside Canada and moved on Canadian railways, 16,690,236 tons was shipped back out of Canada. Of all the freight moving in Canada, 110,860,379 tons terminated in Canada, and 44,523,673 tons left Canada. (The figures do not quite add up as you'd expect. Total freight originated in 1953 was 156,107,052 tons; total freight terminated was 155,384,052. that almost 1 million tons. I gather that this is attributable in part to the way the statistics were gathered, with only terminated freight counted. As a result, freight still on the move would not be included, and freight loaded at the end of the previous year that terminated in 1953 would be counted. In addition, LCL was not quite captured by the numbers and so impacted the total tons some. I don't quite follow this, but it is mentioned quickly in a note with the 1940 Railway Revenue Freight Loadings report.)

The next document I have is the Railway Transport Reports - also DBS publication. It shows total freight carried to be 156,249,259 tons. Another tables shows 176,751,636 tons carried, but notes that of this, 20,502,377 tons was carried by more than one railway - so counted twice. Freight received from foreign connections weighed in at 36,263,279 tons - also slightly different from the monthly reports figures. This information is broken down by commodity and railway, so is somewhat helpful for those modelling regional railways - but not too useful to anyone trying to ascertain anything about the traffic on a small portion of one of the trans-continental lines.

So, first problem with this info is that tons are not cars. Second, a certain amount of the commodities shipped over Canadian railways was terminated at docks to continue in ocean going vessels. I haven't seen a stat that separates USA bound shipments from those bound to the rest of the world. Geography says that the rail traffic out of Canada went to the USA, but just how big a proportion of total traffic went by ship? Third, a certain portion was shipped from one Canadian point to another making use of bridge routes through the USA.

So it get's rather muddled.

Rob Kirkham