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  2. Air hoses and brackets...

Air hoses and brackets...

Jack Burgess
 

A few weeks ago, we were discussing Denny's obsession with air hose
brackets. Does anyone know the manufacturer of the air hoses and brackets
supplied with the Sunshine and Speedwitch kits?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com
Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

A few weeks ago, we were discussing Denny's obsession with air hose
brackets.
H-mm. Great interest, yes; but obsession.... :-) ?

Well, it ain't over until its over. Courtesy of one of our own List members, I do have some very fine CAD drawings for a very doable good looking but secure HO air hose bracket, which I have presented to PSC for consideration for brass casting. The cost of making a master or pattern is beyond belief, but if a brass pattern can be fabricated (+8% to account for shrinkage), they will do it. If the same pattern is made from resin or wax, they can also do it, but only for very short runs.

IMHO, resin or styrene brackets simply do not cut it because there is no way to make them sturdy enough to withstand the most casual handling over any period of time, especially with the relatively stiff brass air hoses (be careful what you wish for!).

My intention has been to attempt making a brass pattern, but I am totally preoccupied with other pressing matters that will not let up until mid January :-( .

All of this said, the appearance of our prototype freight cars, either individually or en train, is so dramatically improved by the routine inclusion of these details that it is worthy of the effort.

Although I am not standing in a trench on this issue, I am much interested that this problem be solved right here in the USA, not China.

Denny



--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento
Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
 

H-mm. Great interest, yes; but obsession.... :-) ?
Yes Denny, it's an obsession. You aren't implying there is anything wrong with that are you? : -)

IMHO, resin or styrene brackets simply do not cut it because there is
no way to make them sturdy enough to withstand the most casual
handling over any period of time, especially with the relatively
stiff brass air hoses (be careful what you wish for!).

It seems to me that the biggest issue is how the bracket is bonded onto the model. I hope our planned brackets have a pin to strengthen the joint.

Ned Carey
jim peters
 

Denny or anyone else . . .

I share in the obsession, but my thought was to fabricate the bracket in etched brass. To date I have made one inquiry about the do-ability and cost . . . with a "I don't have the time" response.

My thinking was, the etched brass part would allow variance in mounting to the car and with a short piece of .006" brass wire partially wrapped around the air hose (brass of coarse) could be soldered to the other end of the bracket, giving the appearance of a U-Bolt attachment.

If anyone on the group is experienced in the brass etching process, I have all the dimensions worked out and would like to discuss the project further . . . on or off the list.

Jim Peters
Coquitlam, BC


To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: danspach@macnexus.orgDate: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 09:14:41 -0800Subject: [STMFC] Re:Air hoses and brackets...




A few weeks ago, we were discussing Denny's obsession with air hose>brackets.H-mm. Great interest, yes; but obsession.... :-) ?Well, it ain't over until its over. Courtesy of one of our own List members, I do have some very fine CAD drawings for a very doable good looking but secure HO air hose bracket, which I have presented to PSC for consideration for brass casting. The cost of making a master or pattern is beyond belief, but if a brass pattern can be fabricated (+8% to account for shrinkage), they will do it. If the same pattern is made from resin or wax, they can also do it, but only for very short runs.IMHO, resin or styrene brackets simply do not cut it because there is no way to make them sturdy enough to withstand the most casual handling over any period of time, especially with the relatively stiff brass air hoses (be careful what you wish for!).My intention has been to attempt making a brass pattern, but I am totally preoccupied with other pressing matters that will not let up until mid January :-( .All of this said, the appearance of our prototype freight cars, either individually or en train, is so dramatically improved by the routine inclusion of these details that it is worthy of the effort.Although I am not standing in a trench on this issue, I am much interested that this problem be solved right here in the USA, not China.Denny-- Denny S. Anspach, MDSacramento





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Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, jim peters <mikado2206@...> wrote:


Denny or anyone else . . .

I share in the obsession, but my thought was to fabricate the
bracket in etched brass. To date I have made one inquiry about the
do-ability and cost . . . with a "I don't have the time" response.

My thinking was, the etched brass part would allow variance in
mounting to the car and with a short piece of .006" brass wire
partially wrapped around the air hose (brass of coarse) could be
soldered to the other end of the bracket, giving the appearance of a
U-Bolt attachment.

If anyone on the group is experienced in the brass etching process,
I have all the dimensions worked out and would like to discuss the
project further . . . on or off the list.

Jim Peters
Coquitlam, BC
I was kind of hoping that the gentleman from Free State Systems would
chime in, as I thought he was on this list. I know that that firm does
some small size etched parts sets, such as the Carmer cut levers that
have been discussed.

From the little etching design experience I have, I see two potential
problems that make etching not the most desirable method of production
for these parts:

1) Rule of thumb is that the minimum through hole is 1.5X the material
thickness. It is possible to fudge this a bit, but holes sized at 100%
of material thickness tend to not etch through. Since you want holes
for .006" diameter wire, that means you either keep the material that
thin or less, or the holes will need to be drilled out by the modeler.
Keep in mind, the smallest drill available to most modelers is #80,
which is .0135" in diameter, over twice the desired size.

2) The biggest reason people don't just make these out of flat stock
is the difficulty of making accurately located bends. The standard way
to do this with etching is to include "fold lines" etched half way
through the material thickness on the side toward the inside of the
bend. While .006" brass may be a reasonable thickness for the part,
the .003" left at the bend locations is going to be exceedingly weak.
The bends could be reinforced with solder after bending, but most
people don't want to solder, and CA isn't going to give adequate
reinforcement to these critical areas. This would seem to indicate
that somewhat thicker material would be preferable, but that causes
problems with the holes as stated above.

Biggest problem with photo etching is that the initial development is
not cheap, and if the chosen dimensions don't work out, you scrap that
art and start all over again. It is certainly doable, but If Doc Denny
can get parts cast, they will be not only stronger, but more user
friendly as well.

Dennis
joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

I agree wholeheartedly with Dennis. I am still loking for my shorts from haveing M&StL all weather windows etched. They turned out to my liking but cost me a small fortune(by my standars)
joe binish

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@mchsi.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re:Air hoses and brackets...


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, jim peters <mikado2206@...> wrote:


Denny or anyone else . . .

I share in the obsession, but my thought was to fabricate the
bracket in etched brass. To date I have made one inquiry about the
do-ability and cost . . . with a "I don't have the time" response.

My thinking was, the etched brass part would allow variance in
mounting to the car and with a short piece of .006" brass wire
partially wrapped around the air hose (brass of coarse) could be
soldered to the other end of the bracket, giving the appearance of a
U-Bolt attachment.

If anyone on the group is experienced in the brass etching process,
I have all the dimensions worked out and would like to discuss the
project further . . . on or off the list.

Jim Peters
Coquitlam, BC
I was kind of hoping that the gentleman from Free State Systems would
chime in, as I thought he was on this list. I know that that firm does
some small size etched parts sets, such as the Carmer cut levers that
have been discussed.

From the little etching design experience I have, I see two potential
problems that make etching not the most desirable method of production
for these parts:

1) Rule of thumb is that the minimum through hole is 1.5X the material
thickness. It is possible to fudge this a bit, but holes sized at 100%
of material thickness tend to not etch through. Since you want holes
for .006" diameter wire, that means you either keep the material that
thin or less, or the holes will need to be drilled out by the modeler.
Keep in mind, the smallest drill available to most modelers is #80,
which is .0135" in diameter, over twice the desired size.

2) The biggest reason people don't just make these out of flat stock
is the difficulty of making accurately located bends. The standard way
to do this with etching is to include "fold lines" etched half way
through the material thickness on the side toward the inside of the
bend. While .006" brass may be a reasonable thickness for the part,
the .003" left at the bend locations is going to be exceedingly weak.
The bends could be reinforced with solder after bending, but most
people don't want to solder, and CA isn't going to give adequate
reinforcement to these critical areas. This would seem to indicate
that somewhat thicker material would be preferable, but that causes
problems with the holes as stated above.

Biggest problem with photo etching is that the initial development is
not cheap, and if the chosen dimensions don't work out, you scrap that
art and start all over again. It is certainly doable, but If Doc Denny
can get parts cast, they will be not only stronger, but more user
friendly as well.

Dennis





Yahoo! Groups Links
Michael Watnoski
 

Hi Dennis and All,

I have responded to this offline. I am willing to consider this part, but I would like to evaluate the design and dimensions first. I may have some other thoughts about this after checking the design.

Michael Watnoski
Free State Systems

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@mchsi.com>
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, jim peters <mikado2206@...> wrote:


Denny or anyone else . . .

I share in the obsession, but my thought was to fabricate the
bracket in etched brass. To date I have made one inquiry about the
do-ability and cost . . . with a "I don't have the time" response.

My thinking was, the etched brass part would allow variance in
mounting to the car and with a short piece of .006" brass wire
partially wrapped around the air hose (brass of coarse) could be
soldered to the other end of the bracket, giving the appearance of a
U-Bolt attachment.

If anyone on the group is experienced in the brass etching process,
I have all the dimensions worked out and would like to discuss the
project further . . . on or off the list.

Jim Peters
Coquitlam, BC
I was kind of hoping that the gentleman from Free State Systems would
chime in, as I thought he was on this list. I know that that firm does
some small size etched parts sets, such as the Carmer cut levers that
have been discussed.

From the little etching design experience I have, I see two potential
problems that make etching not the most desirable method of production
for these parts:

1) Rule of thumb is that the minimum through hole is 1.5X the material
thickness. It is possible to fudge this a bit, but holes sized at 100%
of material thickness tend to not etch through. Since you want holes
for .006" diameter wire, that means you either keep the material that
thin or less, or the holes will need to be drilled out by the modeler.
Keep in mind, the smallest drill available to most modelers is #80,
which is .0135" in diameter, over twice the desired size.

2) The biggest reason people don't just make these out of flat stock
is the difficulty of making accurately located bends. The standard way
to do this with etching is to include "fold lines" etched half way
through the material thickness on the side toward the inside of the
bend. While .006" brass may be a reasonable thickness for the part,
the .003" left at the bend locations is going to be exceedingly weak.
The bends could be reinforced with solder after bending, but most
people don't want to solder, and CA isn't going to give adequate
reinforcement to these critical areas. This would seem to indicate
that somewhat thicker material would be preferable, but that causes
problems with the holes as stated above.

Biggest problem with photo etching is that the initial development is
not cheap, and if the chosen dimensions don't work out, you scrap that
art and start all over again. It is certainly doable, but If Doc Denny
can get parts cast, they will be not only stronger, but more user
friendly as well.

Dennis





Yahoo! Groups Links
Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

A very good person of accomplished skills has stepped forward and is willing to attempt a bracket pattern suitable for casting.

Etching can be great, but will it stand up to the gaff?

More as I know it!

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento
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