Date
1 - 17 of 17
Cranberries
|
Jerry Dziedzic
I find that L&HR handled 250-400 cars per year of cranberries
originating on the New Haven in 1946-1950. This comes from L&HR annual traffic reports. It appears that these were fresh cranberries. One of the reports explains that loadings were down that year because market conditions resulted in berries being attracted to canning operations. A major shipper named is American Cranberry Exchange, half or more of the total. No location is given. I assume that this traffic was seasonal, timed between harvest, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. Does anyone have more information? Was this handled in reefers? Whose? What other connecting roads handled New Haven berries? How much was the total of berry traffic? May as well say a few things more and get them off my chest: I'm looking forward to getting bogged (drum roll) down in detail. Thank you, berry, berry much. Jerry Dziedzic Pattenburg, NJ
|
|
|
|
al_brown03
For info on the American Cranberry Exchange, try this link:
http://www.umass.edu/agcenter/documents/cranberry_situation.pdf ACE was formed in 1910 by merging a co-op out of Middleboro, Mass., with one in southern New Jersey. Berries they shipped over the New Haven were almost certainly from Cape Cod. Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla. --- In STMFC@..., "Jerry Dziedzic" <jerdz@...> wrote: conditions resulted in berries being attracted to canning operations.of the total. No location is given.Thank you, berry, berry much.
|
|
|
|
joe binish <joebinish@...>
Help! Isn't there something in the "bylaws" of the STMFC against bad puns? Shouldn't Jerry be put in the dungeon for such virtual abuse? Save us Mike the Moderator!!!!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Joe Binish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Dziedzic" <jerdz@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:02 AM Subject: [STMFC] Cranberries I find that L&HR handled 250-400 cars per year of cranberries
|
|
|
|
Richard Townsend
Oh, give him a break!? He was just trying to cran as many puns into one message as he could.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Richard Townsend Lincoln City, Oregon
-----Original Message-----
From: joe binish <joebinish@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 8:18 am Subject: Re: [STMFC] Cranberries Help! Isn't there something in the "bylaws" of the STMFC against bad puns? Shouldn't Jerry be put in the dungeon for such virtual abuse? Save us Mike the Moderator!!!! Joe Binish ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Dziedzic" <jerdz@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:02 AM Subject: [STMFC] Cranberries I find that L&HR handled 250-400 cars per year of cranberries ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com
|
|
|
|
rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "joe binish" <joebinish@...> wrote:
puns? Joe BinishI thought it was berry good, Joe Clark (south of crazyland) Propst
|
|
|
|
Greg Martin
Jerry and all,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
To answer part of your question, the New Haven was part of Fruit Growers Express and I would expect that?the vast majority?of the crop was shipped in FGEX (or members equipment) if it were destined for markets that they served. Evidence of this can be found in many shots of?New Haven yards.?If a portion of the crop were to go to markets (read as end users) not served by member roads(FGEX/BREX/WFEX) then those roads would likely have supplied cars for their receivers. But reading a bit on the industry it was fairly well spread out into Wisconsin (served by likely BREX and NWX), Oregon (the Bandon Dunes, Coos Bay area SP served) and Washington State (likely served by WFEX, NP and MLW roads) to distribute in their own markets. Product reaching the LA markets were likely seen in PFE or ATSF and some WFEX cars (likely in that order) based on demand. Some might question the SFRD cars with cranberries, but it make perfect sense as I am sure the folks at Western Fruit Express would request that the Santa Fe supply their own cars into the pool to supply their markets, or at?least allow their car to be reloaded towards home roads?once unloaded with fresh Navel?Oranges that ended up in the PNW, equipment sharing was part of the marketing exchange game. Canadians had their production from British Columbia and Quebec so I? would look for product in those markets in their own cars, but with the vast majority of thier population being within 100 miles of the border some US cars might end up in the mix if they were exporting into the US markets. ? Greg Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Dziedzic <jerdz@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 7:02 am Subject: [STMFC] Cranberries I find that L&HR handled 250-400 cars per year of cranberries originating on the New Haven in 1946-1950. This comes from L&HR annual traffic reports. It appears that these were fresh cranberries. One of the reports explains that loadings were down that year because market conditions resulted in berries being attracted to canning operations. A major shipper named is American Cranberry Exchange, half or more of the total. No location is given. I assume that this traffic was seasonal, timed between harvest, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. Does anyone have more information? Was this handled in reefers? Whose? What other connecting roads handled New Haven berries? How much was the total of berry traffic? May as well say a few things more and get them off my chest: I'm looking forward to getting bogged (drum roll) down in detail. Thank you, berry, berry much. Jerry Dziedzic Pattenburg, NJ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com
|
|
|
|
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Greg Martin wrote:
Product reaching the LA markets were likely seen in PFE or ATSF and some WFEX cars (likely in that order) based on demand. Some might question the SFRD cars with cranberries, but it make perfect sense as I am sure the folks at Western Fruit Express would request that the Santa Fe supply their own cars into the pool to supply their markets, or at?least allow their car to be reloaded towards home roads?once unloaded with fresh Navel?Oranges that ended up in the PNW, equipment sharing was part of the marketing exchange game.This is an interesting speculation and it would be nice to find evidence. I personally doubt if it happened this way, as the WFE people were responsible to their own roads and would have preferred their own cars. Certainly in other markets served by SFRD and PFE there was no such "market pool" for particular crops, even if such pools did exist for other products. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
|
|
|
|
Richard Hendrickson
On Dec 20, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:
Greg Martin wrote:I share Tony's skepticism about what he aptly terms "an interesting speculation." Obviously, many SFRD and PFE reefers went to New England with loads of western produce, and their owners would have been happy to have them sent back west loaded with cranberries as opposed to having them returned empty. But there is no evidence in the SFRD files of any formal pool service agreement, and certainly not of an agreement that required SFRD to provide cars for this traffic. Nor would have such an agreement been needed; since perishable traffic was much heavier eastbound than westbound, there were doubtless empty PFE and SFRD reefers readily available in the area during the Cranberry harvest season. Here again, as always when we're talking about reefer traffic, it's necessary to specify the date; foreign road reefers would have been more likely to be loaded with cranberries between 1942 and 1948, when the federal mandate was in effect that placed all refrigerator cars in a single pool, than before or after that period, when the railroads preferred to load the cars they owned or, in this case, leased from FGE. Richard Hendrickson
|
|
|
|
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Richard Hendrickson wrote:
I share Tony's skepticism about what he aptly terms "an interesting speculation." Obviously, many SFRD and PFE reefers went to New England with loads of western produce, and their owners would have been happy to have them sent back west loaded with cranberries as opposed to having them returned empty.I can't speak for SFRD on this, but it's not true for PFE in peak harvest season--it was far more important to get the empties back to their own shippers, and westbound loads were most certainly NOT PFE's focus. But the cranberry season is outside the peak PFE harvest season, so I would agree with Richard on this particular case. But there is no evidence in the SFRD files of any formal pool service agreement, and certainly not of an agreement that required SFRD to provide cars for this traffic. Nor would have such an agreement been needed; since perishable traffic was much heavier eastbound than westbound, there were doubtless empty PFE and SFRD reefers readily available in the area during the Cranberry harvest season.I think this is correct for New England, but I was mostly responding to Greg's suggestion that SFRD reefers might have been used for the Oregon cranberry harvest. I'm pretty skeptical. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
|
|
|
|
Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
The bulk of the New England cranberry bogs are in former New Haven
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
territory which was a FGE member; FGE had a fairly large pool of cars to draw on; I'm not aware of FGE contracts with either PFE, SFRD; that's a question for Bill Welch Roger Hinman
On Dec 20, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
On Dec 20, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:Greg Martin wrote:andProduct reaching the LA markets were likely seen in PFE or ATSFthesome WFEX cars (likely in that order) based on demand. Some mightas
|
|
|
|
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Roger Hinman wrote:
The bulk of the New England cranberry bogs are in former New Haven territory which was a FGE member; FGE had a fairly large pool of cars to draw on; I'm not aware of FGE contracts with either PFE, SFRD; that's a question for Bill WelchRoger, both the PFE retired managers I interviewed mentioned that FGE had an "agreement" with PFE to share cars when practical. What that may have meant in specific cases, I don't know. At the very least, I'm sure it meant that peak harvest seasons for each donor company were excluded. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
|
|
|
|
John Hile <john66h@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
FWIW, I checked a 1950 Freight Traffic Red Book and copy of the Perishable Protective Tariff No. 13, effective June 15, 1944. Nothing obvious regarding cranberries, i.e. requests for rate adjustments, handling rules, etc., from point A to point B. I did, however, upload a pdf scan to the STMFC file area of Rule 36 from Tariff 13 (file name: P P Tariff 13 Rule 36) which gives the general rules for furnishing refrigerator cars. Part 2 of the rule deals specifically with SFRD and PFE served railroads and their ability to refuse to furnish for loading, or accept in interchange, private cars which are to be used at or are bound for a specifically defined western territory (see Part 2 Section C) with other than perishable cargo. Meat reefers are OK, as are private cars with perishable freight requiring protection. This seems to imply that when these rules were followed (assuming no special agreements are made between car owners or other AAR arrangements) if you saw a private reefer other than a PFE or SFRD car on the west coast, it would have come there hauling a perishible cargo. It also seems to imply that the car would not be loaded for an intra-area load, or for a perishable load heading east which would be loaded within the protected area. I would appreciate others reading this rule and letting me know if my interpretation is correct. John Hile
|
|
|
|
Greg Martin
All,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
First of all if we look for paper to verify the use of foreign line cars in reloading or loading application we are not likely to find it. Marketing agreements and contract were private and protected from the public.?In conversations with several marketing guys (now retired and as you might expect working as consultants and one old head ex-Q ex-BN car applicator) this was the way it was explained to me. When marketing wanted to increase market share the first hurdle of new business was to go to car management and bring the idea to them, ultimately they made the program happen or die. Marketing would explain the opportunity, "we have this piece of business on the Santa Fe in the LA Basin to move a product (this case cranberries, it could be apples) into LA Markets and capture some SP market share..." The reply was always, "Okay, so where do we get the cars?" "We are tapped out on reefers and if the Santa Fe wants the business they will have to agree to?supply the cars or allow us to reload their empties out of Hoquim, Markem,or South Bend to make the program work." With heads down and lower lips rolled down the marketing guys head back to their desk... However if the Santa Fe car management agrees to a portion of the car supply the program goes forward.?If cars of a particular type were long because of? short harvest or in betwen harvest then car management?might agree, it was simply a matter of asset management. Why would car management that serves the origin want to supply a?car offline to cover the business for the Santa Fe(or any foreign road)? Cars and especially?high?value cars like reefers?were always tight, all through the 40's, 50's and 60's. Now if there was a new class of car displacing another?similar perhaps they could be added to the service, but by the 50's?many older car?of like types were being scrapped or rebuilt but the fleet never grew on a one to one basis.? We have had long discussion regarding?car management on this list, and I realize it might be difficult for some outside the business to understand asset management, but railcars were the railroads most valuable asset, other than people.? Tony, your right the SP would not likely?request or reload?an ATSF car?for an online move, but I wonder how PFE management would view several carloadings that destine for someplace like Albuquerque, NM and furthermore, why would the Santa Fe want to pay mileage to PFE for a move?from Albuquerque with an empty?dead head back? Why?would?PFE want to loose a car offline for perhaps two weeks or more in the middle of a harvest? And it might not be cranberries, it could be pear from southern Oregon, or hops from the upper Willamette Valley, these were all considerations for good car management. As one retired Milwaukee marketing guy told me we have to give you a car, that is mandated, but we never said when... But he admits that this was part of the ultimate death of his railroad... Greg martin?
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:37 am Subject: Re: [STMFC] Cranberries Greg Martin wrote: Product reaching the LA markets were likely seen in PFE or ATSF andThis is an interesting speculation and it would be nice to find evidence. I personally doubt if it happened this way, as the WFE people were responsible to their own roads and would have preferred their own cars. Certainly in other markets served by SFRD and PFE there was no such "market pool" for particular crops, even if such pools did exist for other products. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com
|
|
|
|
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Greg Martin wrote:
First of all if we look for paper to verify the use of foreign line cars in reloading or loading application we are not likely to find it.Fine. That's why I interviewed people rather than counting on finding paper. But remember, Greg, absence of paper likewise does not prove there WAS an agreement. Tony, your right the SP would not likely?request or reload?an ATSF car?for an online move, but I wonder how PFE management would view several carloadings that destine for someplace like Albuquerque, NM and furthermore, why would the Santa Fe want to pay mileage to PFE for a move?from Albuquerque with an empty?dead head back? Why?would?PFE want to loose a car offline for perhaps two weeks or more in the middle of a harvest?Sorry, you're not making sense. The railroads HAD to pay mileage to the refrigerator car operators whether the "wanted to" or not. And we've already agreed that cranberries are NOT harvested in the peak seasons for the growing territories of ATSF and PFE. No, SP did not "reload ATSF cars," as it was PFE's responsibility to supply cars on-line to both UP and SP perishable shippers. And ample testimony from those who did the work is that PFE and SFRD simply did not use each other's cars. Period. You can rationalize from your car distribution experience all you want, but those are the facts from that era. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
|
|
|
|
Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
Posted by: "John Hile" I did, however, upload a pdf scan to the STMFC file area of Rule 36 from Tariff 13 (file name: P P Tariff 13 Rule 36) which gives the general rules for furnishing refrigerator cars. Part 2 of the rule deals specifically with SFRD and PFE served railroads and their ability to refuse to furnish for loading, or accept in interchange, private cars which are to be used at or are bound for a specifically defined western territory (see Part 2 Section C) with other than perishable cargo. Meat reefers are OK, as are private cars with perishable freight requiring protection.
This seems to imply that when these rules were followed (assuming no special agreements are made between car owners or other AAR arrangements) if you saw a private reefer other than a PFE or SFRD car on the west coast, it would have come there hauling a perishible cargo. It also seems to imply that the car would not be loaded for an intra-area load, or for a perishable load heading east which would be loaded within the protected area. I would appreciate others reading this rule and letting me know if my interpretation is correct. ================== From a legal point of view, there is a problem with that interpretation. Every railroad had a common carrier obligation to accept in interchange any load tendered to the origin road on a legal bill of lading, routed via the receiving road and loaded in accordance with applicable AAR rules for the type of load. You couldn't refuse a load because it was a particular car type or mark carrying a wrong commodity. When short of box cars, it was not unusual for eastern roads to use PFE and other reefers for forwarder traffic to the west coast. I saw that done on the NYC on the west side. I wonder if that language that John refers to was more pertinent to acceptance of empty private line cars in interchange. BTW the fact that a rule existed didn't necessarily mean that it was enforceable or that penalties, if any, were sufficient to dissuade a railroad from misusing a car in order to avoid loss of revenue.. Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383 New England Rail Shipper Directories 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478
|
|
|
|
Mark Mathu
Jerry Dziedzic wrote:
A major shipper named is American Cranberry Exchange, half or moreAmerican Cranberry Exchange was a cooperative marketing groups formed in 1910 from several regional co-ops, and is a forerunner to Ocean Spray. They shipped from many locations in several states. __________ Mark Mathu Whitefish Bay, Wis.
|
|
|
|
Mark Mathu
Greg Martin wrote:
But reading a bit on the industry it was fairly well spreadNo doubt NWX reefers were used for Wisconsin cranberries... I'm looking for more specific information, but I believe that WRX (Western Refrigerator Lines) reefers were also used for cranberries in Wisconsin. WRX operated reefers for the GB&W. Here are 1943 & 1953 versions of a directory of industries put out by the GB&W, and there are ten shippers located in four towns along the GB&W (Wisconsin Rapids, Biron, Walker & City Point, Wis.): http://www.greenbayroute.com/industries.htm Most of these were smaller shippers which trucked their cranberries -- most likely to the nearest team track, but Biron Cranberry Co. was a large shipper with rail access on their property. Wisconsin Rapids, Wis. • Biron Cranberry Co. [located on the Soo Line] • Wisconsin Cranberry Sales / American Cranberry Exchange Biron, Wis. • Biron Cranberry Co. • Wisconsin Cranberry Sales / American Cranberry Exchange Walker, Wis. • Searles Cranberry Co. • Wisconsin Cranberry Sales / American Cranberry Exchange City Point, Wis. • Bissig Brothers (probably off-track) • Jepson • Michalak and Smagacz (probably off-track) • Ellis and Volz (located one block off-track)
|
|
|