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Paint shelf life?
Charles Hladik
Brian,
A couple of years ago the LHS I worked at had some Modelflex set up in the bottle. Badger replaced it. IIRC Accuflex was the precursor to Modelflex and it was taken off the market due to some of the problems that you relate. Sorry, but I don't know what to do to rectify your problem. Chuck Hladik **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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Greg Martin
In a message dated 1/11/2008 7:41:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
brian@... writes: SGL wrote; Plastic bottle, Brian? Yes, plastic bottle. The paint wasn't solid, very liquid in fact. Just a strange painting experience. It went through my airbrush like water. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY Brian, It is likely still good. The stuff is very "thin" but covers well and needs no thinning. You got good color coverage, correct? Greg Martin **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
Tonight I tried to paint a Bowser X31 using Badger Accuflex (yes Accuflex,
not Modelflex) Light Tuscan Oxide Red. I've used Accuflex before, but probably not in 3 years, this was a brand new (to me) unopened bottle that I mixed well. The coverage was spotty and wet and no combination of air and paint would produce smooth results. Nor did it matter how close or far away I held the brush, the paint stayed spotty. The paint did exhibit a "funky" odor that I never noticed when using acrylic paint before. My question is can acrylic paint go bad in the bottle? I have no idea how long the bottle was on the shelf at my local hobby shop. Normally, I use Polly S acrylics. Any thoughts? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY
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Schuyler Larrabee
Plastic bottle, Brian? Polyethylene or similar? I suspect that is the problem. Accuflex is also
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the paint that had the major meltdown IIRC, and there was a huge batch of it made with polluted water, as I understood it, which made it go solid in the bottle . . . and in your airbrush while you were painting with it. I had a near (airbrush) death experience with it. Really too bad, too, because when it first came out I painted a three-color passenger car AND decaled it in one 7 PM to 11 PM session. SGL
Tonight I tried to paint a Bowser X31 using Badger Accuflex (yes Accuflex,
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Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
SGL wrote; Plastic bottle, Brian?
yes, plastic bottle. The paint wasn't solid, very liquid in fact. Just a strange painting experience. It went through my airbrush like water. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY
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Dennis Williams
Brian.
My luck dealing with acrylic paints was not that great. The "spotty" sounds like some oils (fingerprints)were left on the car surface. Seems to be no matter how much I cleaned, I still had that problem. I heard that one time, correct me if I'm wrong, one brand had problems with their paint. May have been Badger. For the past 20 years that I have been airbrushing, I try to stick with Scalecoat I and II, II is for plastics. Also it has a nice decal surface. Now, talk about shelf life, Scalecoat seems to jell after a long while. My opinion is the large bottle. 1/2 paint, 1/2 air. I started to use smaller bottles and it seems to work. To answer your last question, paints can go bad over time. I have some Floquils that are 20 years old with no problems. But I had some that did not last a year after opening. I guess that it all depends on the mix at the time. Dennis --- Brian J Carlson <brian@...> wrote: Tonight I tried to paint a Bowser X31 using Badger ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
Brian, in short, Yes. Badger offers a guarantee on their paint. Contact them
and they will replace the paint. I did this recently after discovering a number of new bottles, and some open ones, that were just as you describe, including one with a really bad odor. Badger was very cordial, all I had to do was send them a list of the paint colors that were bad and they replaced them. I have been using Accuflex and later ModelFlex since it first came out. Requires different airbrush techniques, but I have not had problems with paint quality until this last year. I attritubted the problem to a couple of recent moves when my paint was in storage for a length of time. I have learned when using ModelFlex that I want a supply of hot water handy for cleaning the airbrush or removing a bad paint job immediately, ie paint next to the laundry tub if possible. Also have a bottle of Windex/window cleaner, use it for a final cleaning of the airbrush. The ammonia in the window cleaner cuts the paint when the hot water doesn't. If you begin cleaning within 5 minutes you can usually remove the paint with no trouble (provided you have not set the paint with the hair dryer). Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1219 - Release Date: 1/11/2008 10:19 AM
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I'm not the fastest modeller in the world and and thus I always seem
to have lots of old paint that I can no longer use. I have been fantasizing about having compressed nitrogen at my work bench so that I could replace the atmosphere in opened paint with N2. I believe (though don't know for certain) that this would dramatically improve shelf life. Unfortunately, even a small cylinder ("lecture bottle") is > $100, at least as far as I've been able to determine. If this is a valid technique, commercial paint shops should already be on to it. Anyone heard of anything like this? Bob Sterner --- In STMFC@..., RUTLANDRS@... wrote: set up in the bottle. Badger replaced it. IIRC Accuflex was the precursor toModelflex and it was taken off the market due to some of the problems thatyou relate. Sorry, but I don't know what to do to rectify your problem.shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Bob Sterner" <rwsterner@...> wrote:
Bob, You might take a look at the small cans of pressurized nitrogen and argon mix made for the yuppie oenophile (wine connoisseur) market. The idea is the nitrogen displaces the air, then the argon settles over the surface of the liquid. Argon is totally inert, and so prevents any oxidation. However, the solvents in the paint will still evaporate into the rare gas atmosphere in the bottle, so I'm not sure preventing oxidation will make that much difference. The only way to find out is to try it. I just ran into a catalog page for the argon wine preserver on the Plastic Process Equipment web site; can't figure out why, most the people I know in the tool making and molding industries drink stronger stuff than wine, and don't leave partial bottles around long enough for oxidation to be a problem :-) I suspect that this stuff has probably found some industrial uses too varied to list, possibly conserving partially filled cans of coatings. Whatever, here's a link to the page. I'm sure the PPE will take credit card orders. http://www.ppe.com/08cat/1022.pdf Or see your local wine shoppe :-) Dennis
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Dennis Williams
Question I would have is: Do you have to remove the N2
before mixing the paint or it does not matter? That sounds like it may help prevent jelling of scalecoat paints. Dennis --- Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote: --- In STMFC@..., "Bob Sterner" ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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Charles Morrill
Micro-Mark also sells the small spray cans --- principly to help preserve the RTV and urethane liquids.
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Around here, good wine in an open bottle doesn't stay around long enough to worry about it. Bad wine, why preserve it? Charlie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:38 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Paint shelf life?
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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Dennis Williams <pennsy6200@...> wrote:
The real question is, why do they jell? If they are jelling because the resin (the binder in the paint) is chemically reacting with the oxygen in the air, then removing contact with oxygen should do the trick. However, if they are jelling because loss of solvent allows the resin molecules to coalesce, the solvent is still going to be lost as vapor in the headspace, no matter what gas the headspace is filled with. In which case, the solution is to reduce the amount of headspace, usually by transferring the paint to a smaller container. I've also heard of floating a bit of thinner on top of the paint before closing the bottle, but this tends to cause the paint to become thinner with each use. Dennis Storzek
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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Charles Morrill" <badlands@...> wrote:
preserve the RTV and urethane liquids.enough to worry about it. Bad wine, why preserve it?Urethanes are a special case; they react with water, which acts as a foaming agent. This is exactly the way urethane insulating products, such as Great Stuff work; you inject the liquid resin from the can, and atmospheric water vapor causes it to foam and cure. So the secret to keeping urethane resins for any amount of time after opening is to purge the headspace with something totally devoid of moisture, and canned nitrogen is cheap. Considering our atmosphere is already 80% nitrogen, I don't think this will do anything to reduce solvent evaporation. Dennis
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Dennis Williams
Thanks
--- Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote: --- In STMFC@..., Dennis Williams ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
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ed_mines
--- In STMFC@..., "Bob Sterner" <rwsterner@...> wrote:
I could replace the atmosphere in opened paint with N2. I believeBob, a past employer used to sell very reactive moisture cure coatings. We used to recommend blanketing the unused coating with nitrogen. I did this on many occasions, blowing the liquid out of the cans (or bottles) about half the time. I don't think the coatings sold for model railroads are that reactive though. In fact many aren't reactive at all. (Tradional Scalecoat is reactive and traditional Floquil isn't.) Some reactive coatings like traditional Scalecoat smell for weeks; the smell is linseed oil which reacts with oxygen like an old fashioned paint. Coatings in polyethylene bottles sometimes loose cosolvents through the plastic. I found that traditional Floquil lasted a lot longer if the circular plastic seal on top of the bottle was put back intact. I many have even bought some replacement seals. Ed Mines
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Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
I painted with both Floquil and Scalecoat about a month back. So
that's what I smell when Scalecoat is drying. It smelled like linseed oil, but I didn't think it could be used in a "model" paint. Interesting that they'd use it in a lacquer. Perhaps that's why it goes through an airbrush so well? Floquil is everyone's old standby, what with the problems many including myself have spraying Modelflex. Tamiya stuff sprays far easier than Modelflex. I have made new liners out of thick plastic from water bottle packaging. The jury's still out on these. Steve Lucas. --- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote: Some reactive coatings like traditional Scalecoat smell for weeks; the smell is linseed oil which even bought some replacement seals.
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Charles Hladik
When you speak of linseed oil, is it "boiled linseed oil" or "raw". Years
ago when trying to refinish a gunstock I was told to use linseed oil, well, it never dried. I then learned about boiled linseed oil, it dries. Chuck Hladik **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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I looked into books on the chemistry of surface coatings. I found
the book, Paint and Surface Coatings: Theory and Practice (2nd ed., Lamborne and Strives, eds., 1999) the most helpful. Most if not all of it is free and searchable on Google Scholar. I'm not pretending to have turned into a surface chemist overnight but here's what I found. Both oxidative polymerization and solvent loss are involved in paint drying or "curing". It appears to me from my reading that oxidation is more associated with oil-based rather than water-based paints, though nothing I found came right out and said that real clearly. It seems quite logical to me that an N2 or argon atmosphere will lengthen the shelf life of paints that cure by oxidation (yes, most of the atmosphere is N2 but O2 is a strong oxidant). The oenophile industry has helpfully provided just the product we need (thanks for finding that, Dennis!). I haven't decided if I'll try that but I just might. For that matter, if curing of water-based paints is largely due to evaporation of the water out of the bottle, then presumably one could greatly lengthen shelf life of aqueous paints by simply storing them in some kind of sealed container containing water, maintaining humidity at 100% and thus keeping the dang water in the paint bottle. That's basically free. I think I'm going to start doing that immediately. The only cost is convenience so even if its hokum, little is lost. Bob S. --- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote: believe improve(though don't know for certain) that this would dramatically coatings.shelf life.Bob, a past employer used to sell very reactive moisture cure We used to recommend blanketing the unused coating with nitrogen. Idid this on many occasions, blowing the liquid out of the cans (orbottles) about half the time.reactive though. In fact many aren't reactive at all. (Tradional Scalecoatis reactive and traditional Floquil isn't.) Some reactive coatingslike traditional Scalecoat smell for weeks; the smell is linseed oilwhich reacts with oxygen like an old fashioned paint.the plastic.circular plastic seal on top of the bottle was put back intact. I many haveeven bought some replacement seals.
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