Jack Delano color photos


ed_mines
 

Has anyone seen a Delano color photo of a string of SFRD reefers? The
railroads at war book has many B&W photos taken on the ATSF.

I think the latest Delano color photos in Shorpy show ATSF diesels in
color.

Ed


Aley, Jeff A
 

Ed,



I can't answer your question directly, but it may interest
you to know that many of Delano's RR photos are now available at
www.flickr.com <http://www.flickr.com/> . Their site is easier for me
to use than the Library of Congress website.



Regards,



-Jeff





________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
ed_mines
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:37 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Jack Delano color photos



Has anyone seen a Delano color photo of a string of SFRD reefers? The
railroads at war book has many B&W photos taken on the ATSF.

I think the latest Delano color photos in Shorpy show ATSF diesels in
color.

Ed


Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Speaking of which, its not a great shot, but how about <http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/2178416353/>.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@intel.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Jack Delano color photos


Ed,



I can't answer your question directly, but it may interest
you to know that many of Delano's RR photos are now available at
www.flickr.com <http://www.flickr.com/> . Their site is easier for me
to use than the Library of Congress website.



Regards,



-Jeff





________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
ed_mines
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 9:37 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Jack Delano color photos



Has anyone seen a Delano color photo of a string of SFRD reefers? The
railroads at war book has many B&W photos taken on the ATSF.

I think the latest Delano color photos in Shorpy show ATSF diesels in
color.

Ed







Yahoo! Groups Links





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Todd Stearns <toddsyr@...>
 

Love this shot!


http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=471324544&size=l

Thanks for the tip Jeff!

Todd K. Stearns


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

RE: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=471324544&size=l

Does anyone weather their models that heavily?
Gene Green
Out in the - aww,you know where I am.


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Does anyone weather their models that heavily?<
Richard Hendrickson


Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Short answer, "no".

I have a large number of boxcars all sitting on a shelf next to me and not one is that darkly weathered. Some are not too far from the Erie car, but not that dark. I guess I could do one or two to that extent (I model 1946). But much as photos like this one are worthy of note, there are so many other Delano photos from about the same era where multiple cars are shown and the weathering is somewhat lighter that I think a cross section where these are at the extreme end is probably appropriate.

More challenging to me however is the faded paint beneath that weathering. The colours that come from the bottle (or mixed) are not nearly this washed out. I keep making the mistake of applying those sorts of mixes, decaling and clear coating, and then trying to weather. I think I've go the order wrong in the case of very weathered cars. I should try the fist paint coat, perhaps lightened or otherwise pushed toward a more faded colour, and then another coat to increase the sunburned washed out paint colour. Only then should the clear coat and decals be applied and then the grime. I think.... Will have to try it.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Green" <bierglaeser@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Jack Delano color photos


RE: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=471324544&size=l

Does anyone weather their models that heavily?
Gene Green


Todd Stearns <toddsyr@...>
 

Notice how even most of the buildings have alot of weathering too.

Todd K. Stearns


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

I do, too. A long look at all the photos from my area and era pretty much
seals that deal. Anything more than a scattering of newly-painted cars would
render my whole re-creation a fantasy.



Interestingly, I still get comments on "how could you mess up such a nice
model like that", from attendees at the meets, though. I think there still
exists a large "rose-colored glasses" set in our midst.



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon
Miller
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 11:39 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Jack Delano color photos



Does anyone weather their models that heavily?<
Richard Hendrickson

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

Yes. Not all, but some.
Norm Larkin

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Green
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 11:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Jack Delano color photos


RE: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=471324544&size=l

Does anyone weather their models that heavily?
Gene Green
Out in the - aww,you know where I am.


Tim O'Connor
 

If you model the steam era, esp pre 1950, carbon soot could
accumulate on a parked rail car quite rapidly. Add a little rain
and sunshine, and you can get a really filthy car quite rapidly.
I've seen steam era color photos of cars just 2 or 3 years old
that were incredibly filthy. I think the percentage of truly filthy
cars declined somewhat in the 1950's as large numbers of
new cars were added, old junkers were scrapped, many older
cars got new paint jobs, and the amount of air pollution
declined ever so slightly (especially around rail yards). By the
late 1950's railroads cut back on repainting so weathering took
on more of a faded and/or rusty nature, rather than sooty.

Even more rarely modeled than filthy cars, are brand new
SHINY cars! Most model railroads could use some examples
of both.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Jon Miller" <atsf@inow.com>
Does anyone weather their models that heavily?<
Richard Hendrickson


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 30, 2008, at 8:32 AM, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

If you model the steam era, esp pre 1950, carbon soot could
accumulate on a parked rail car quite rapidly. Add a little rain
and sunshine, and you can get a really filthy car quite rapidly.
I've seen steam era color photos of cars just 2 or 3 years old
that were incredibly filthy. I think the percentage of truly filthy
cars declined somewhat in the 1950's as large numbers of
new cars were added, old junkers were scrapped, many older
cars got new paint jobs, and the amount of air pollution
declined ever so slightly (especially around rail yards). By the
late 1950's railroads cut back on repainting so weathering took
on more of a faded and/or rusty nature, rather than sooty.

Even more rarely modeled than filthy cars, are brand new
SHINY cars! Most model railroads could use some examples
of both.
Tim is entirely correct on almost all counts. The amount of soot and
grime that came out of the stacks of coal burning steam locos, though
well documented in both color and B/W photos, seems difficult for most
modelers to imagine unless they're old enough to have been there. Oil
burners weren't quite as bad - until the firemen sanded the flues, but
then they were, if anything, worse. Whether in trains or yards,
freight trains were constantly bombarded with that stuff. Adding to
that, when cars were idle they often spent a lot of time in heavily
polluted industrial areas (Pittsburgh or South Bend in the 1940s? The
mind boggles.) As Tim says, the retirement of steam locos made a big
difference after the mid-1950s. I'll take one mild exception to Tim's
remarks, however. White it's true that model railroads need some brand
new or recently repainted cars, truly shiny is not what you want.
Sure, fresh paint was somewhat shiny, as the photos show us. But it
didn't stay that way for more than a couple of weeks after the car
entered revenue service. Also, shine doesn't scale down. A model as
shiny as a freshly painted prototype looks wrong. More realistic is an
eggshell finish, mostly flat but with just a bit of shine to it (e.g.,
2/3 Dullcote and 1/3 glosscote).

Richard Hendrickson


Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Wouldn't the roughness of the painted surfaces have a lot to do with
how "weathered" a car looked? Pullman, in its glory days, repainted its
cars every couple of years. That tells me the glossy surface finishes
of the steam era broke down relatively quickly. Having done a few
(well, more than a few) bad airbrush jobs where the paint went on too
dry, I can certainly see how a rough painted surface would hold soot
and general grime much more readily than a smooth finish. The phasing
out of steam locomotives and the phasing in of synthetic paints (were
they concurrent?) would certainly have changed weathering patterns.

Just a random thought.

Tom Madden


Tim O'Connor
 

Tom

Didn't Pullman cover most paint with "varnish" as a clear coat? So
not only is the paint important, but perhaps the finish clear coats also
changed and would that affect how frequently passenger cars were
repainted? In addition passenger cars were washed frequently (while
freight cars were almost never washed) and so the effects of brushes,
detergents and abrasion would be significant for passenger cars. On
the other hand, passenger cars probably didn't have standing piles of
crud on their roofs with acidic compounds that ran down the car sides
for days and weeks on end. (Coal smoke was full of sulfur componds
for example.)

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Tom Madden" <tgmadden@worldnet.att.net>
Wouldn't the roughness of the painted surfaces have a lot to do with
how "weathered" a car looked? Pullman, in its glory days, repainted its
cars every couple of years. That tells me the glossy surface finishes
of the steam era broke down relatively quickly. Having done a few
(well, more than a few) bad airbrush jobs where the paint went on too
dry, I can certainly see how a rough painted surface would hold soot
and general grime much more readily than a smooth finish. The phasing
out of steam locomotives and the phasing in of synthetic paints (were
they concurrent?) would certainly have changed weathering patterns.

Just a random thought.

Tom Madden


Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Tim asked:
Didn't Pullman cover most paint with "varnish" as a clear coat? So
not only is the paint important, but perhaps the finish clear coats
also changed and would that affect how frequently passenger cars
were repainted? In addition passenger cars were washed frequently
(while freight cars were almost never washed) and so the effects of
brushes, detergents and abrasion would be significant for passenger
cars.
I guess I was thinking of the Imron epoxy "paints" applied to
excursion locos today, which appear to be so glossy (and retain that
gloss) that any cruds landing on the surface would have a hard time
staying there. That's an entirely different surface than you'd get
with pre-1950 paints. Any sort of gloss finish on those paints,
whether from an extra layer of varnish or leveling agents in the
paint, would break down relatively quickly, leaving a rough(er)
surface on which contaminants would readily stick. Pullman had to
apply the varnish coat fairly frequently to keep their cars looking
fresh.

On the other hand, passenger cars probably didn't have standing
piles of crud on their roofs with acidic compounds that ran down
the car sides for days and weeks on end. (Coal smoke was full of
sulfur componds for example.)
Indeed. As has been pointed out many times, Eastern weathering is
corrosion-based (rain, soot and the general acidity of the
environment) while Western weathering tends to be abrasion-based
(wind, sun and blowing sand/dirt). Eastern lawn care requires the
generous and frequent application of lime to reduce the acidity of
the soil. When we moved from New Jersey to Colorado in 1970 I went to
a garden center to pick up some lime to spread on the lawn, and they
just laughed at me! Soils are very alkaline out here.

Tom Madden


bnpmodeler
 

Mr. Kirkham and list, how about the Mike Rose dullcoat technique (visit
http://www.mrhobby.com/fading.html)? I have been working up the nerve to try
it myself; I believe that he concentrates on more modern equipment, but I
would think it would lend itself to steam era freight cars as well.

Jim Harr




More challenging to me however is the faded paint beneath that weathering.
The colours that come from the bottle (or mixed) are not nearly this washed
out. I keep making the mistake of applying those sorts of mixes, decaling
and clear coating, and then trying to weather. I think I've go the order
wrong in the case of very weathered cars. I should try the fist paint coat,
perhaps lightened or otherwise pushed toward a more faded colour, and then
another coat to increase the sunburned washed out paint colour. Only then
should the clear coat and decals be applied and then the grime. I think....
Will have to try it.

Rob Kirkham


Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Its worth a try James, but to be frank, that style of colour fading - which tends toward white-ish to my eyes - isn't exactly what I see when I look at Delano photos. I suspect there is a difference attributable to paint chemistry that effects weathering in different eras; that Mike's modelling with the Dulcote method is for later eras; that the washed out colours in the Delano photos (tending to the earth tones) reflect older types of paint. So how to achieve that older style of faded/washed out paint colour? I think Rose's comments at the bottom of his tutorial about blending paint to match the faded colour from the get-go are more apropos to this issue. Still, I will have to give it a go on some boxcar red colours and see what it does.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Harr" <bnchmark@embarqmail.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:49 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Jack Delano color photos


Mr. Kirkham and list, how about the Mike Rose dullcoat technique (visit
http://www.mrhobby.com/fading.html)? I have been working up the nerve to try
it myself; I believe that he concentrates on more modern equipment, but I
would think it would lend itself to steam era freight cars as well.

Jim Harr


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Guys;



I agree with Rob. The Dullcote method works nicely on cars that had darker
synthetics, particularly PC green and some blues, but Rob sees it like my
eyes see it; it bleaches toward a chalky or cloudy version of those colors.
Mike Rose's PC cars using this technique look great to me. Synthetics can
weather to any color of the rainbow (the DT&I auto boxes were an extreme
example), but you have to look at photos and figure out what the individual
variations were.



My attempts on red or brown cars, for prototypes painted using "natural"
pigments, using that technique did not look as good to my eyes. The real
cars, it appears to me, bleach from sunlight more toward tan or yellower or
oranger- red/brown versions of the base color; the exception, again to my
eyes, being the WM and B&O cars that bleached toward pinkish red. Some ATSF
cars look to me like they bleached toward a tan version of Mineral Brown, as
Richard said, perhaps due to the area in which they were used. Since many of
the early paints were made of natural pigments in linseed oil (or similar),
the use of natural tones in lightening them has appeared better for my uses.
Rob's suggestion of doing a fade from the get-go is a good one, as also might
be applying a base coat of the original color, and then overspraying it with
lighter or various different variations off that color, to your satisfaction.
I have used DRGW orange, Rail Brown, and Rust, as an additive or overspray,
but not applied uniformly, on some of the cars I am happiest with.

The appearance of rust, either through the paint, or along seams and on
rivets, does not usually apply to the entire paint job, but in select areas,
which I thought best approached by use of washes, streaking, and blotching,
in those areas you want to re-create that effect. Gons, in particular, got
dinged, or got roasted from hot coils, in a way different from other cars, so
can stand a lot more heavy-handed application of rust. Jack Consoli did a
really nice "roasted" gon in the recent TKM, using some new techniques to get
thick layers of rust. Old, dark rust trends more toward black, so Roof Brown,
Burnt Umber, and various shades of black, can be mixed for those areas.
Lighter scrapes look more orange. Gon interiors tend toward dark rust in the
corners and lighter rust where scrap and loads are rubbing against the sides.



The one I would also like to master is the many variations of worn-off paint,
like on galvanized roof panels, or old single-sheathed box cars. The
slightly silver, grey of galvanized sheeting, can look slightly blue on some
cars, but also can eventually rust like anything else made of steel. That is
a whole subject of its own.



Then, you get to the endless variations in color and texture of wood....



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob
Kirkham
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 11:20 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Jack Delano color photos



Its worth a try James, but to be frank, that style of colour fading - which
tends toward white-ish to my eyes - isn't exactly what I see when I look at
Delano photos. I suspect there is a difference attributable to paint
chemistry that effects weathering in different eras; that Mike's modelling
with the Dulcote method is for later eras; that the washed out colours in
the Delano photos (tending to the earth tones) reflect older types of paint.
So how to achieve that older style of faded/washed out paint colour? I
think Rose's comments at the bottom of his tutorial about blending paint to
match the faded colour from the get-go are more apropos to this issue.
Still, I will have to give it a go on some boxcar red colours and see what
it does.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Harr" <bnchmark@embarqmail.com
<mailto:bnchmark%40embarqmail.com> >
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:49 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Jack Delano color photos

Mr. Kirkham and list, how about the Mike Rose dullcoat technique (visit
http://www.mrhobby.com/fading.html <http://www.mrhobby.com/fading.html> )?
I have been working up the nerve to
try
it myself; I believe that he concentrates on more modern equipment, but I
would think it would lend itself to steam era freight cars as well.

Jim Harr


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

Its worth a try James, but to be frank, that style of colour fading -
which
tends toward white-ish to my eyes - isn't exactly what I see when I
look at
Delano photos. I suspect there is a difference attributable to paint
chemistry that effects weathering in different eras; that Mike's
modelling
with the Dulcote method is for later eras; that the washed out
colours in
the Delano photos (tending to the earth tones) reflect older types of
paint.
So how to achieve that older style of faded/washed out paint colour? I
think Rose's comments at the bottom of his tutorial about blending
paint to
match the faded colour from the get-go are more apropos to this issue.
Still, I will have to give it a go on some boxcar red colours and see
what
it does.
Mike Rose's weathering techniques are clever and effective, but largely
inappropriate on models of steam era rolling stock. You are right to
be looking at the 1940s color photos of Delano and others, rather than
looking at more recent freight cars (or, for that matter, at photos of
cars from the early 1950s on), as the latter are more misleading than
useful. I have a copy set of 70-some color slides taken in 1941 by the
late Jack Maxwell on the UP and D&RGW in the Rockies, and they
abundantly confirm the evidence in Delano's color shots. No doubt
paint faded in those days, just as did in later years, but on steam-era
cars the fading was almost always more or less concealed by a heavy
coat of dirt and grime.

Richard Hendrickson


Schuyler Larrabee
 

On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

Its worth a try James, but to be frank, that style of colour fading -
which
tends toward white-ish to my eyes - isn't exactly what I see when I
look at
Delano photos. I suspect there is a difference attributable to paint
chemistry that effects weathering in different eras; that Mike's
modelling
with the Dulcote method is for later eras; that the washed out
colours in
the Delano photos (tending to the earth tones) reflect older types of
paint.
So how to achieve that older style of faded/washed out paint colour? I
think Rose's comments at the bottom of his tutorial about blending
paint to
match the faded colour from the get-go are more apropos to this issue.
Still, I will have to give it a go on some boxcar red colours and see
what
it does.
Mike Rose's weathering techniques are clever and effective, but largely
inappropriate on models of steam era rolling stock. You are right to
be looking at the 1940s color photos of Delano and others, rather than
looking at more recent freight cars (or, for that matter, at photos of
cars from the early 1950s on), as the latter are more misleading than
useful. I have a copy set of 70-some color slides taken in 1941 by the
late Jack Maxwell on the UP and D&RGW in the Rockies, and they
abundantly confirm the evidence in Delano's color shots. No doubt
paint faded in those days, just as did in later years, but on steam-era
cars the fading was almost always more or less concealed by a heavy
coat of dirt and grime.

Richard Hendrickson
I watched Mike Rose's presentation on weathering at Cocoa Beach. I don't care for the technique,
not only because of what Richard has written here about era, but because it seemed to me to leave a
great deal to chance, and that there is little-to-no control over what is happening to the model.
I also saw no way to decide that this is NOT going the way you want and to punt.

I weather with acrylics, color pencils, some conte crayon and pastel sticks, even some *gasp* dirt.
If you have access to a baseball diamond which is really properly maintained with regulation dirt,
go there sometime when there's no game on and it's not rained for a while. The powdered dirt around
home plate is wonderful stuff, and with moisture, gets sticky. A coffee can full will last you
forever. After I've got what I want this way, I'll use the airbrush, because the most recent
weathering on any car at all is windblown dirt. What's been said here recently about eastern mud
and rain, vs western dust and wind, is very true, and I try to get that impression. I also like to
have a photo of the car or at least a similar car when I start.

SGL