Color fun was FGE Yellow Color


James Eckman
 

In addition to all the other fun involved our models, colors have a size as well! Just ask anyone who's bought paints from paint chips and then painted walls with it. Damn, too dark... is the usual problem. I think Mile and Larry hit it on the head, if it looks right on the layout, it is right. For early freight cars that are 'boxcar red' I usually start with burnt sienna and add white or black to taste. Burnt umber is also a good base color for freight cars that need a more muddy brown color.

Jim Eckman


W. Lindsay Smith <wlindsays2000@...>
 

Before the spectrograph, it was difficult to measure colors. Texure
and lighting futher caused differrences. When I was a painter's
laborer in Berkeley CA, it was common for the painter to mix the
colors. He added the tints to get the warmth and appearance he
wanted. In the shops the painters always wanted to make the color
better and added to the pot. One had me add black (soot) to the pot
when we were painting the sunny side of the building so that it would
look like the same color as the shaddy side. So the "standard" color
charts were guidance at best; and even then, the objects did not have
the same color. I think you are emulating the practice as you make up
the paint for old models.
My mother had a yarn shop before 1941 and I used to have to sort
skeins of yarn by dye lot because the colors varied. Even in the
1970s when I was buying Navy electronics, I would have discussions
about the black case color from job to job. Beauty and color are in
the eyes of the beholder.
Lindsay Smith
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:

In addition to all the other fun involved our models, colors have a
size
as well! Just ask anyone who's bought paints from paint chips and
then
painted walls with it. Damn, too dark... is the usual problem. I
think
Mile and Larry hit it on the head, if it looks right on the layout,
it
is right. For early freight cars that are 'boxcar red' I usually
start
with burnt sienna and add white or black to taste. Burnt umber is
also a
good base color for freight cars that need a more muddy brown color.

Jim Eckman


Charlie Vlk
 

This is a problem that keeps on coming up.

The funny thing about "correct" colors is most of the time the frame of reference by the vast majority of consumers is
another company's model (correct or not) or "Color Guides" printed in China from decades old color prints or slides
(or even colorized B&W prints!!!) color matched using Chinese or Japanese ink systems and printed by people who
never saw the prototype!!

Drift cards are a good start and reproducing these valuable source documents is a huge problem.

Prototype
Lighting Conditions
Viewing Distance
Sky / Weather Conditions
Sun Angle
Weathering (dirt, etc. film)
Paint Fading / Deterioation
Varying Paint Formulations
Different Vendors
Changes in Specifications over time
Paint Finish

Model
Scale of Color
Lower Intensity (than the Sun) Lighting Conditions on the Layout
Different Temperature Light Sources
Cumulative errors in matching colors from sub-masters
Color Perception of Individuals involved in the Research/Design/Manufacturing/Approval/Production processes
Color Perception Memory
Scale of Paint (pigment size....evident in Metalics and composites like Graphites
Paint Finish (largely not addressed in models beyond Gloss/Flat)
Sprayed paints vs. Tampo printed inks
Order of application of paints over varying color substrates

...and a high percentage of Males and even some Females have some degree of Color Blindness


Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Colour blindess--it's more common than you think. There is at least
one well-known model rail author that is colour blind. Colour vision
is tested by either the Isihara plates (those coloured numbers inside
coloured circles) or a lantern test, which originated with the Royal
Navy, but is also used--for testing prototype train crews. AFAIK
there are few colour standards--AAR signal colours, Pantone colour
system, and inks used in printing the Isihara plates.

Then we add those "color guides"--Charlie, you are quite right. The
graphics standard for colour is the Pantone system. I often wonder
about the accuracy of some of those colours in the Morning Sun books
that I enjoy and will buy more of. And there are also some rail
books that have colour digitally altered to improve a photo's
appearance. Some publishers seem to employ this technique often!

The best prototype colour references IMHO are drift cards, wet
samples, or Pantone references. We CN modellers are fourtuante to
have had Stafford Swain and company do up a "chip of many colours"--
essential for CN/GTW/CV/DW&P modellers.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...> wrote:

This is a problem that keeps on coming up.

The funny thing about "correct" colors is most of the time the
frame of reference by the vast majority of consumers is
another company's model (correct or not) or "Color Guides" printed
in China from decades old color prints or slides
(or even colorized B&W prints!!!) color matched using Chinese or
Japanese ink systems and printed by people who
never saw the prototype!!

Drift cards are a good start and reproducing these valuable source
documents is a huge problem.

Prototype
Lighting Conditions
Viewing Distance
Sky / Weather Conditions
Sun Angle
Weathering (dirt, etc. film)
Paint Fading / Deterioation
Varying Paint Formulations
Different Vendors
Changes in Specifications over time
Paint Finish

Model
Scale of Color
Lower Intensity (than the Sun) Lighting Conditions on the Layout
Different Temperature Light Sources
Cumulative errors in matching colors from sub-masters
Color Perception of Individuals involved in the
Research/Design/Manufacturing/Approval/Production processes
Color Perception Memory
Scale of Paint (pigment size....evident in Metalics and composites
like Graphites
Paint Finish (largely not addressed in models beyond Gloss/Flat)
Sprayed paints vs. Tampo printed inks
Order of application of paints over varying color substrates

...and a high percentage of Males and even some Females have some
degree of Color Blindness


Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


George R. Stilwell, Jr. <GRSJr@...>
 

The Royal Horticultural Society has a color matching system available that consists of a very large set of standardized color cards; each has a hole in it. One holds the cards close over the item to be matched.

It has the advantage that it can be used in various lights and will provide an exact match tailored to the user. Each card is identified by a color number so one can convey the color match to others using the system.


James Eckman
 

I'd love to see a STMFC Panatone list for the more common railroads, It would make a great starting point for mixing!

Jim Eckman


Charlie Vlk
 

Jim-
In my industry experience, Pantone Colors do not come close to most railroad colors.
There are at least 900 distinct DuPont colors (at least I know of that many drift cards!!) and DuPont was only one
of many paint suppliers to the railroad industry.
My guess is that we'd need color matches for around 2000 colors and another 100 or so to duplicate metals, weathering, woods, etc..
It is amazing how far off colors can be even when you have access to common color specification systems from all over the world.....
You can develop mixes using RGB, CMYK etc. proportions, but even there you need further work to control other factors such as brightness,
finish, etc...
The factories always want someone to spec a single number to absolve them of any responsibility for the final color.
It isn't that easy for anyone involved in the process. Only if it were that dialing in a magic number could result in a correct color for every model!
Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources


I'd love to see a STMFC Panatone list for the more common railroads, It
would make a great starting point for mixing!

Jim Eckman

.


James Kubanick <kuban@...>
 

Many years ago, I worked as a color formulator for Mobil Chemical. One job that passed across my lab bench was a color match for Western Maryland covered hoppers.
The WM specified that we match to a Federal Color Standard color panel. These were maintained by the US Navy in Philadelphia and any paint company could obtain uniform color standards from this source upon request. The standards were referenced by a five-digit code number which were often referenced in military, government and industrial paint specifications. The advantage of this system is that it is a tightly controlled single source of closely matched reference panels that can be used as paint color standards by any private or government agency wishing to solicit bids from paint manufacturers who wish to become qualified paint suppliers to the bidding agency.

I have seen a number of railroads use this system but, as we were a supplier of vinyl paints, we only solicited business where certain chemical resistance was required and vinyl paints fit the WM's criteria for covered hoppers. One negative property of vinyl paint for this application was that vinyls are notorious for fast color fading when exposed to sunlight and, as a result, these covered hoppers would start chalking very quickly after being placed in service. This was not a big concern for the WM, however, as this type of paint protected their investment in coveved hoppers very well against chemical and impact damage. Besides, the light gray color masked the chalking very well.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown, WV

----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Vlk
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Color fun was FGE Yellow Color


Jim-
In my industry experience, Pantone Colors do not come close to most railroad colors.
There are at least 900 distinct DuPont colors (at least I know of that many drift cards!!) and DuPont was only one
of many paint suppliers to the railroad industry.
My guess is that we'd need color matches for around 2000 colors and another 100 or so to duplicate metals, weathering, woods, etc..
It is amazing how far off colors can be even when you have access to common color specification systems from all over the world.....
You can develop mixes using RGB, CMYK etc. proportions, but even there you need further work to control other factors such as brightness,
finish, etc...
The factories always want someone to spec a single number to absolve them of any responsibility for the final color.
It isn't that easy for anyone involved in the process. Only if it were that dialing in a magic number could result in a correct color for every model!
Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources

I'd love to see a STMFC Panatone list for the more common railroads, It
would make a great starting point for mixing!

Jim Eckman

.


Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

My point is No mater where you get your so called standard color chip you can not match it.
Let say you want to mix "River Bottom Blue" Get your chip from where ever you want. It calls for a gallon of base 17. You are not sure the base is the same shade as when the chip was made. It calls for 3 Oz of pigment QW. 5 Oz of FG. You start with a clean 3 and 5 Oz measures. You put you pigments into the measures and then pour them into the base. If you look at your measures you will notice some of the pigment remains in the them. You do not know how much so you measurement is not true. Never True. So you guys just keep on mixing paint.
I do not need any right now. 8>)
Say good night "Gracie"


Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@comcast.net
Boca Raton FL 33434
I want to die in my sleep like
my grandfather did, not screaming
like the other people in his car.

On Feb 6, 2008, at 1:33 PM, James Kubanick wrote:

Many years ago, I worked as a color formulator for Mobil Chemical. One job that passed across my lab bench was a color match for Western Maryland covered hoppers.
The WM specified that we match to a Federal Color Standard color panel. These were maintained by the US Navy in Philadelphia and any paint company could obtain uniform color standards from this source upon request. The standards were referenced by a five-digit code number which were often referenced in military, government and industrial paint specifications. The advantage of this system is that it is a tightly controlled single source of closely matched reference panels that can be used as paint color standards by any private or government agency wishing to solicit bids from paint manufacturers who wish to become qualified paint suppliers to the bidding agency.

I have seen a number of railroads use this system but, as we were a supplier of vinyl paints, we only solicited business where certain chemical resistance was required and vinyl paints fit the WM's criteria for covered hoppers. One negative property of vinyl paint for this application was that vinyls are notorious for fast color fading when exposed to sunlight and, as a result, these covered hoppers would start chalking very quickly after being placed in service. This was not a big concern for the WM, however, as this type of paint protected their investment in coveved hoppers very well against chemical and impact damage. Besides, the light gray color masked the chalking very well.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown, WV

----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Vlk
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Color fun was FGE Yellow Color


Jim-
In my industry experience, Pantone Colors do not come close to most railroad colors.
There are at least 900 distinct DuPont colors (at least I know of that many drift cards!!) and DuPont was only one
of many paint suppliers to the railroad industry.
My guess is that we'd need color matches for around 2000 colors and another 100 or so to duplicate metals, weathering, woods, etc..
It is amazing how far off colors can be even when you have access to common color specification systems from all over the world.....
You can develop mixes using RGB, CMYK etc. proportions, but even there you need further work to control other factors such as brightness,
finish, etc...
The factories always want someone to spec a single number to absolve them of any responsibility for the final color.
It isn't that easy for anyone involved in the process. Only if it were that dialing in a magic number could result in a correct color for every model!
Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources

I'd love to see a STMFC Panatone list for the more common railroads, It
would make a great starting point for mixing!

Jim Eckman

.











Yahoo! Groups Links



Robert <riverob@...>
 

Larry,

I think 95 percent of STMFC/RPM type modelers would be satisfied with
a 95 percent "accurate" REPRODUCABLE, quantified color match (however
one wants to measure accuracy) since 95 percent of us realize there
is no such thing as a perfect match. Just like most things we
model. Let's not get bogged down by analysis paralysis. Modeling is
not a game of perfect.

Rob Simpson


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...> wrote:

My point is No mater where you get your so called standard color
chip you can not match it.
Let say you want to mix "River Bottom Blue" Get your chip from
where ever you want. It calls for a gallon of base 17. You are not
sure the base is the same shade as when the chip was made. It calls
for 3 Oz of pigment QW. 5 Oz of FG. You start with a clean 3 and 5 Oz
measures. You put you pigments into the measures and then pour
them into the base. If you look at your measures you will notice
some of the pigment remains in the them. You do not know how much so
you measurement is not true. Never True. So you guys just keep on
mixing paint.
I do not need any right now. 8>)
Say good night "Gracie"


Thank you
Larry Jackman


Yahoo! Groups Links