Chips


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Doug Harding notes:

And Mike if you are really interested, they raise cattle in Florida, head
inland and look down, be careful where you walk. I don't think the color of
manure has changed through the years. It is affected by what the cattle are
eating.
But that's the point, Doug. Florida grasses are quite different from those in Iowa and/or Wyoming. Wouldn't it be better to match to a chip in the area of actual use? To add to that, chip colors have probably changed over the yrs due to changes in grass types and....well...there must be SOME reason but I'm not sure if the color of such chips might change over time. We obviously need to hear from someone more versed in chip matters than I am.

Spen Kellogg adds:

"Haven't you modeled those chips on the federal grazing land alongside
your track work climbing up and over Sherman Hill? <VBG> What color are
those "chips?"

Well, yes, I've tried to determine the colors from photos from the '50's but one should never trust to film with its color shifts, etc. And, besides, there's those &%*($$ analopes that were and still are found on the Hill. I can't tell if the chip is from analope or cattle from photos. In fact, I think the only sure fire way would be to see them being produced. Tom Madden doesn't live too far from there...perhaps he could take a quick trip up there and take some photos of both during production for the archives. I'd hate for someone to discover that I had used the color of analope chips in my stock cars. And, don't forget... The cars...once emptied of cattle would have these floor colors until cleaning. One BIG advantage with this pursuit of knowledge is that it will help in modeling the ground in the stock pen at Buford. Hmmm. Wonder if they cleaned that very often?

Mike Brock


Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Mike Brock regales us with tales of colorful cow chips and the
confusion he experiences because the large number of "analopes" (an
interesting mispelling considering the subject at hand - and underfoot)
mix their food byproducts with those of the UP's cattle passengers,
then suggests:

Tom Madden doesn't live too far from there...perhaps he could take
a quick trip up there and take some photos of both during
production for the archives.
Of course. Laramie is always where I want to be in February. But I
should thing the chips, during production, would be frozen before they
hit the ground right now. Or blown past Chian.

Tom "always interested in the end product" Madden


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tom Madden wrote:
Mike Brock regales us with . . . the large number of "analopes" (an interesting mispelling considering the subject at hand - and underfoot) . . .
Glad someone besides me noticed this <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Frank Fertitta <frank1357@...>
 

Great stuff!
And lots OF it!!!

Frank

Mike Brock <brockm@...> wrote:
Doug Harding notes:

And Mike if you are really interested, they raise cattle in Florida, head
inland and look down, be careful where you walk. I don't think the color
of
manure has changed through the years. It is affected by what the cattle
are
eating.
But that's the point, Doug. Florida grasses are quite different from those
in Iowa and/or Wyoming. Wouldn't it be better to match to a chip in the area
of actual use? To add to that, chip colors have probably changed over the
yrs due to changes in grass types and....well...there must be SOME reason
but I'm not sure if the color of such chips might change over time. We
obviously need to hear from someone more versed in chip matters than I am.

Spen Kellogg adds:

"Haven't you modeled those chips on the federal grazing land alongside
your track work climbing up and over Sherman Hill? What color are
those "chips?"

Well, yes, I've tried to determine the colors from photos from the '50's but
one should never trust to film with its color shifts, etc. And, besides,
there's those &%*($$ analopes that were and still are found on the Hill. I
can't tell if the chip is from analope or cattle from photos. In fact, I
think the only sure fire way would be to see them being produced. Tom Madden
doesn't live too far from there...perhaps he could take a quick trip up
there and take some photos of both during production for the archives. I'd
hate for someone to discover that I had used the color of analope chips in
my stock cars. And, don't forget... The cars...once emptied of cattle would
have these floor colors until cleaning. One BIG advantage with this pursuit
of knowledge is that it will help in modeling the ground in the stock pen at
Buford. Hmmm. Wonder if they cleaned that very often?

Mike Brock




Yahoo! Groups Links


Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Mike Brock regales us with . . . the large number of "analopes" (an
interesting misspelling considering the subject at hand - and
underfoot) . . .
Glad someone besides me noticed this <g>.

Tony Thompson
I can see it now, next January in Mike's layout room: Stock extra 4012
West, the "Fecal Flyer", Cheyenne to Laramie.....

Tom Madden


WaltGCox@...
 

In a message dated 2/8/2008 11:43:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
brockm@... writes:

<<But that's the point, Doug. Florida grasses are quite different from those
in Iowa and/or Wyoming. Wouldn't it be better to match to a chip in the area
of actual use? To add to that, chip colors have probably changed over the
yrs due to changes in grass types and....well...there must be SOME reason
but I'm not sure if the color of such chips might change over time. >>


There is also the effect of strontium 90 on chip color to be calculated and
considered along with the amount of atmospheric nuclear testing being done
during the time period being modeled. The ingestion of strontium 90 by cows was
a serious concern back in the 50's. Walter Cox



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)


David Smith
 

If only I'd know... All those years of wandering the open range, I
apparently should have been photographing dung instead of rocks ;-)

FYI, there's no danger of confusing cow pies and antelope droppings - cow
pies are pie-sized. Antelopes, like deer make piles of much smaller pellets.

As for colors, there's also an aging factor. As I recall, fresh ones were a
slightly greenish brown (in cattle browsing Nevada sagebrush/grass) and they
got to be a very dark brown, almost black, as they dried out.

Dave Smith

On Feb 8, 2008 11:42 AM, Mike Brock <brockm@...> wrote:

Doug Harding notes:

And Mike if you are really interested, they raise cattle in Florida,
head
inland and look down, be careful where you walk. I don't think the color
of
manure has changed through the years. It is affected by what the cattle
are
eating.
But that's the point, Doug. Florida grasses are quite different from those
in Iowa and/or Wyoming. Wouldn't it be better to match to a chip in the
area
of actual use? To add to that, chip colors have probably changed over the
yrs due to changes in grass types and....well...there must be SOME reason
but I'm not sure if the color of such chips might change over time. We
obviously need to hear from someone more versed in chip matters than I am.

Spen Kellogg adds:

"Haven't you modeled those chips on the federal grazing land alongside
your track work climbing up and over Sherman Hill? <VBG> What color are
those "chips?"

Well, yes, I've tried to determine the colors from photos from the '50's
but
one should never trust to film with its color shifts, etc. And, besides,
there's those &%*($$ analopes that were and still are found on the Hill. I
can't tell if the chip is from analope or cattle from photos. In fact, I
think the only sure fire way would be to see them being produced. Tom
Madden
doesn't live too far from there...perhaps he could take a quick trip up
there and take some photos of both during production for the archives. I'd
hate for someone to discover that I had used the color of analope chips in
my stock cars. And, don't forget... The cars...once emptied of cattle
would
have these floor colors until cleaning. One BIG advantage with this
pursuit
of knowledge is that it will help in modeling the ground in the stock pen
at
Buford. Hmmm. Wonder if they cleaned that very often?

Mike Brock




Yahoo! Groups Links



--
David L. Smith
Da Vinci Science Center
Allentown, PA
http://www.davinci-center.org


Charles Hladik
 

This sure sounds like a bunch of "Buffalo Chips" to me.
The hybridization of feed hasn't changed the colors of forage and grazing
grasses enough to alter the chip colors. Until commercial livestock start eating
berries and the like, the pies will remain as they have over the
last........years.
Chuck Hladik
Here in Hayseed County Virginia



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)


Richard Townsend
 

People are overlooking the seasonal variations in color.? New spring grass yields a greener product.? Meticulous modelers will want to address this issue.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:05 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Chips






Mike Brock regales us with . . . the large number of "analopes" (an
interesting misspelling considering the subject at hand - and
underfoot) . . .
Glad someone besides me noticed this <g>.

Tony Thompson
I can see it now, next January in Mike's layout room: Stock extra 4012
West, the "Fecal Flyer", Cheyenne to Laramie.....

Tom Madden





________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com


Frank Greene
 

Wow! What's this the 3rd or 4th color discussion we've had in a week? Or, does it only seem that way? LOL

"Mike Brock" brockm@... mb8444 wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to match to a chip in the area
of actual use? To add to that, chip colors have probably changed over the
yrs due to changes in grass types and....well...there must be SOME reason
but I'm not sure if the color of such chips might change over time.

...I've tried to determine the colors from photos from the '50's but
one should never trust to film with its color shifts, etc.
Now that analope and antelope have been discounted from the equation, we only have color to decide (although, I'm sure that Larry J. will be quick to tell us it can't be duplicated, only imitated). Therefore, Mike B, at CCB 2009, how about a stock special test train, the cars randomly placed with floors the suggested colors (i.e., different geographic origins, seasons, "freshness", eras, etc.). It will be necessary to designate it a "test" to rationalize the unprotypical mixed eras and traffic orgins, of course. An exclusive panel of self-acclaimed male bovine manure artistes will be allowed the opportunity to determine the geographical and generational origin of the shipment. Could there possibly be a better way to determine accurate chip color?

I've always wanted an opportunity to attend the CCB meet and that might tip the balance. <grin>

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

"And, besides, there's those &%*($$ analopes that were and still are
found on the Hill. I can't tell if the chip is from analope or cattle
from photos."

Mike, antelope doo-doo looks nothing like cattle chips. I live at the
foot of Sherman Hill and would be happy send you samples of both - or
photos, if that would smell better.

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Frank Greene says:

Therefore,
Mike B, at CCB 2009, how about a stock special test train, the cars
randomly placed with floors the suggested colors (i.e., different
geographic origins, seasons, "freshness", eras, etc.). It will be
necessary to designate it a "test" to rationalize the unprotypical mixed
eras and traffic orgins, of course.
Wellll, of course I have some UP stock cars and some of other RR's as well. All of the cars will, naturally, be from 1953 but I can arrange for some of the cattle to be from Nebraska or Kansas [ did they have cattle there? ] and...OHMYGOSH. What about sheep? Geeez. What color would their chips be?

An exclusive panel of
self-acclaimed male bovine manure artistes...."
There should be NO problem with finding very qualified "bovine manure" artistes in the crowd at Cocoa Beach. In fact, it will be a rare moment when...and if...one were to find someone who did NOT qualify.

"....will be allowed the
opportunity to determine the geographical and generational origin of the
shipment. Could there possibly be a better way to determine accurate
chip color?
Not that I'm aware of. Certainly there could not be a better way to determine the floor color than from this study of such color chips. I'm reasonably sure that we are breaking new ground with this and I'm equally certain that several manufacturers will be monitoring breathlessly the results of this study. Curiously, at least some of the manufacturer representatives will NOT be among those NOT qualified as "bovine manure" gurus.

I've always wanted an opportunity to attend the CCB meet and that might
tip the balance. <grin>
One would certainly expect you to be here. As for myself...

Mike Brock


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Laramie Larry...who apparently knows about such things...writes:

"Mike, antelope doo-doo looks nothing like cattle chips. I live at the
foot of Sherman Hill and would be happy send you samples of both - or
photos, if that would smell better."

Actually, I would prefer that you send the real things rather than photos to Tom Madden...he being closer than me...although, now that I think about it, perhaps it might be more appropriate to send them to those who are determined to use color chips in their pursuit of "accurate" paint colors from chips. Fortunately, as I've long ago indicated, I don't pay much attention to chips. Those preferring to use chips would likely frown at photos anyhow, since they corrupt the actual images quite a bit. I could come up with a list of those likely interested, I suppose, by analyzing recent messages on the STMFC by those who would prefer chips. I'm certain that such a generous move on your part would be greeted by great joy and thanks by those believing in the value and superiority of chips to determine color. Myself? I'll probably just rock along...guessing about the actual color as usual.

Mike Brock


Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
 

Mike, you asked if the stockpens/stockyards were cleaned very often? Yes
they were cleaned, quite often, and for the same reason stockcars were
cleaned, to prevent disease. A railroad stockpen with a history of disease
was avoided by farmers like the plague, with good reason. And railroad
revenues suffered accordingly. So yes they were cleaned.

In my study of ICC valuation reports of RR stockpens, I often saw notations
that showed the larger setups had a hard surface of some sort, which made
cleaning easier. Only the very smallest stockpens and/or the ones that were
seldom used had a "dirt floor". Most were paved with brick, cinders, packed
stone, sand, asphalt, concrete, ties, etc. A porous surface made drainage
easier, a hard surface was easier to scrap clean or hosed down. And if the
pens were not paved, most certainly the alley ways were paved. Any hard
surface that could be scraped off would do. Of course this is related to RR
stockpens in the Iowa/Illinois area which I have studied and where we have
sufficient rainfall to make well used stockpens a soupy mess. Out west,
where it is dryer, I suspect you see more "dirt floors".

Just another little detail to add to your modeling. Get some Holgate
Reynolds brick sheets, cut pieces to line your alleyways. Cover the pens
with your favorite sand or ballast material. Have a shed or old car body for
holding sand and straw for bedding in stockcars (freight car content here).
Hang a few shovels and pitch forks on the shed wall, perhaps a hose coiled
up near by. Make sure some bags of lime are visible, lime was used to
disinfect, and spread it around in freshly cleaned pens. And have a pile of
straw/manure out back, where you put it after mucking out the pens. You
might want to place some smaller piles of used looking sand/straw (you
figure out the correct color) near the tracks where a car may have been
cleaned out after unloading livestock. Rural stockpens, esp. here in the
Midwest, received livestock as well as shipped them out.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1266 - Release Date: 2/8/2008
10:06 AM


boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

I grew up forking and shoveling "chips". But there is no way on
earth I am getting into another color discussion!!!

I once saw a UP stock car which had come into Germantown Md on the
B&O with a load of sheep from Cheyenne Wyoming. Wonder what
sheep "chips" looked like? The bill included a separate charge for
cleaning and disinfecting the car.

John King



--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Laramie Larry...who apparently knows about such things...writes:

"Mike, antelope doo-doo looks nothing like cattle chips. I live at
the
foot of Sherman Hill and would be happy send you samples of both -
or
photos, if that would smell better."

Actually, I would prefer that you send the real things rather than
photos to
Tom Madden...he being closer than me...although, now that I think
about it,
perhaps it might be more appropriate to send them to those who are
determined to use color chips in their pursuit of "accurate" paint
colors
from chips. Fortunately, as I've long ago indicated, I don't pay
much
attention to chips. Those preferring to use chips would likely
frown at
photos anyhow, since they corrupt the actual images quite a bit. I
could
come up with a list of those likely interested, I suppose, by
analyzing
recent messages on the STMFC by those who would prefer chips. I'm
certain
that such a generous move on your part would be greeted by great
joy and
thanks by those believing in the value and superiority of chips to
determine
color. Myself? I'll probably just rock along...guessing about the
actual
color as usual.

Mike Brock


Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

Mike asked -
What about sheep? Geeez. What color would their chips be?

The chips are more like giant rabbit pellets than cattle chips, and darkish brown, depending on the species, time of year, age of the chip, indoor/outdoor lighting, etc. I've never tried to create a paint to match them but if you are desperate ........................


Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ
Home to 4 million people and 40 million sheep


Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Mike bloviates-

There should be NO problem with finding very qualified "bovine manure"
artistes in the crowd at Cocoa Beach. In fact, it will be a rare moment
when...and if...one were to find someone who did NOT qualify.
Say it isn't so!

On extended contemplation, however, I may recall perhaps one....or was it two? (Present company excepted, of course).

Denny

--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento