Hercules 8000g Type 21 Tanks


John Hile <john66h@...>
 

Hello All,

I've gathered the following info on Hercules Powder Co (HPCX) 8000g,
type 21 tanks with the hope of modeling a couple circa 1952-53 using
the factory decorated Proto 2000 kits. As I understand it, these cars
are former Paper Makers Chem Co (PMCX) which received new reporting
marks but kept their orig numbers when Hercules acquired PMC. Problem
is, I have some conflicting and incomplete info...

Proto 2000 HCPX car numbers I am aware of: 705, 706, 708, 714, 718

Car 705: Type 21? Listed in 1/53 ORER, capy 8036g.

Cars 706-711: Type 21? 706, 708, 711 listed in 1/53 ORER, capy 8050g.
Oct 1997 RMJ article, however, says 706-711 are type 27, and ORER
capy matches that of other known type 27 cars.

Car 714: Type 21? No longer listed in 1/53 ORER, listed 1/45 ORER
with 8000g capy.

Car 718: PMCX 718 bldr photo, RMJ Feb 1998. Listed 1/53 ORER, capy 8000g.

Am hoping someone on the list can shed some light, or contribute more
data to the cause.

Thanks,

John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Park Varieties <parkvarieties@...>
 

What type of cargo would these cars have carried when owned by Hercules Powder? Thanks.
Frank Brua

----- Original Message -----
From: John Hile
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 3:54 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Hercules 8000g Type 21 Tanks


Hello All,

I've gathered the following info on Hercules Powder Co (HPCX) 8000g,
type 21 tanks with the hope of modeling a couple circa 1952-53 using
the factory decorated Proto 2000 kits. As I understand it, these cars
are former Paper Makers Chem Co (PMCX) which received new reporting
marks but kept their orig numbers when Hercules acquired PMC. Problem
is, I have some conflicting and incomplete info...

Proto 2000 HCPX car numbers I am aware of: 705, 706, 708, 714, 718

Car 705: Type 21? Listed in 1/53 ORER, capy 8036g.

Cars 706-711: Type 21? 706, 708, 711 listed in 1/53 ORER, capy 8050g.
Oct 1997 RMJ article, however, says 706-711 are type 27, and ORER
capy matches that of other known type 27 cars.

Car 714: Type 21? No longer listed in 1/53 ORER, listed 1/45 ORER
with 8000g capy.

Car 718: PMCX 718 bldr photo, RMJ Feb 1998. Listed 1/53 ORER, capy 8000g.

Am hoping someone on the list can shed some light, or contribute more
data to the cause.

Thanks,

John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Peter Ness
 

I am sure more authoritative responses will appear and I hope to
learn more about this company. My own very limited research shows
Hercules has a very interesting history as the company began (sources
variously cite ca. 1880 or 1881) manufacturing powder chemicals for
use in explosives (black powder for TNT, largest producer ca. 1917
following divestiture from DuPont ca. 1912) but as time progressed,
they acquired other chemical manufacturing technologies (through
their own development and corporate expansion) so that in the post
WWII years they also manufactured wood rosin-based chemical compounds
useful in several manufacturing industries ranging from paints,
coatings, adhesives, to agriculture (ferilizer) and printing. I have
two reference photos in which these (or similar) cars appear in
service on the New Haven Railroad one of which (taken at South Boston
Freight Terminal) is within the scope of this thread. The other
photo is taken in later years at the New Haven's Cedar Hill Yard
facility. IIRC, the company originated in the West (CA?) and later
also had offices in the East (DE?). The Hercules logo still appears
today used by the successor, Alliant Power which still manufactured
explosive powders. Hercules Inc. still exists manufacturing the
rosin-derived compounds. Alliant is locatd in VA, Hercules in DE.

Regards,
Peter
http://www.freewebs.com/newhavenrailroad1959/

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Park Varieties" <parkvarieties@...>
wrote:

What type of cargo would these cars have carried when owned by
Hercules Powder? Thanks.
Frank Brua


Dave Nelson
 

Peter Ness wrote:

IIRC, the company originated in the West (CA?) and later
also had offices in the East (DE?).
That would be in Hercules, CA., on Suisun Bay, along the SP's Cal-P mainline
between Oakland and Sacramento. The company used a 36" narrow gauge track
to move stuff around the large property. It's all suburban housing now.

I have a photo of some Hercules std. gauge house cars... they look like
reefers as it's T&G wood siding, plug door, and they may well have been
insulated, but offhand I don't recall if they were XM, XI, or something
else.

Dave Nelson


John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

That would be in Hercules, CA., on Suisun Bay, along the SP's Cal-P
mainline
between Oakland and Sacramento. The company used a 36" narrow gauge
track
to move stuff around the large property. It's all suburban housing now.
Atlas Powder Works was also located in the area at Giant and/or Nitro,
CA. I believe Point Pinole Park is built on the site of the old Atlas
works with walking paths laid on the grade of the narrow-gauge tram
system there.

John Hile


John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Ness" <prness@...> wrote:

I am sure more authoritative responses will appear and I hope to
learn more about this company.
Thanks for that summary Peter. I will add from my notes that I have
Hercules Powder Co. dating from 1882-1955. It is my understanding
that the mining industry in CA was a draw and/or reason for Hercules
to be in CA. This, along with military contracts for gunpowder,
explosives, etc., kept up their explosives business.

I have notes that Hercules built a plant on "the coast of Southern
California" shortly after 1915 to derive solvents such as acetone and
ketone from kelp/seaweed fermentation. From the article, it sounds as
though acetone, ethyl-methyl ketone, acetone oil, acetic acid, and
ethyl acetate were all products to be derived - which Hercules needed,
but were pricey due to war-time scarcity of traditional raw materials.
Potash and iodine were by-products. I have additional info that
leads me to believe the plant did not last past 1917.

-John Hile


daylines_johncarty <johnpcarty@...>
 

In answer to the question of what the tank cars transported, I spoke
with an armorer who dealt with Hercules Powder while at Western
Cartridge in St. Louis. Hercules would have been shipping components
for explosives. Hercules Powder maintained a plant near Godfrey,
Illinois where they produced dynamite and gunpowder.
For dynamite, both glycerin and nitro would ship by tank car to the
plant where they would be combined with inert earth. For gunpowder
and nitrocellulose (guncotton or cordite) sulphur cuold be shipped in
an aqueous solution. Given that the Hercules cars were equipped with
steam lines, glycerin would certainly by a cargo.

I hope this helps.

John Carty


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:

Hello All,

I've gathered the following info on Hercules Powder Co (HPCX) 8000g,
type 21 tanks with the hope of modeling a couple circa 1952-53 using
the factory decorated Proto 2000 kits. As I understand it, these
cars
are former Paper Makers Chem Co (PMCX) which received new reporting
marks but kept their orig numbers when Hercules acquired PMC.
Problem
is, I have some conflicting and incomplete info...

Proto 2000 HCPX car numbers I am aware of: 705, 706, 708, 714, 718

Car 705: Type 21? Listed in 1/53 ORER, capy 8036g.

Cars 706-711: Type 21? 706, 708, 711 listed in 1/53 ORER, capy
8050g.
Oct 1997 RMJ article, however, says 706-711 are type 27, and ORER
capy matches that of other known type 27 cars.

Car 714: Type 21? No longer listed in 1/53 ORER, listed 1/45 ORER
with 8000g capy.

Car 718: PMCX 718 bldr photo, RMJ Feb 1998. Listed 1/53 ORER, capy
8000g.

Am hoping someone on the list can shed some light, or contribute
more
data to the cause.

Thanks,

John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

My guess - based on the origin of the cars and Hercules' business in printing and paper chemicals - is that they were hauling paper-making chemicals.

Think about it: If they acquired a company that used and owned tank cars, wouldn't it be logical for them to continue those tank cars in the same service?

With respect to nitroglycerin, I can assure you from my time working with nitroglycerin at Hercules' Magna Utah explosives plant that it would be impossible to transport nitrogylcerin in a conventional tank car. I suspect you'll find that it was also illegal.

KL

----- Original Message -----
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:

Hello All,

I've gathered the following info on Hercules Powder Co (HPCX) 8000g,
type 21 tanks with the hope of modeling a couple circa 1952-53 using
the factory decorated Proto 2000 kits. As I understand it, these
cars
are former Paper Makers Chem Co (PMCX) which received new reporting
marks but kept their orig numbers when Hercules acquired PMC.


daylines_johncarty <johnpcarty@...>
 

You are correct, no sane person would ship nitroglycerin by tank
car. The components (nitro and glycerin) would ship that way, as
both are essentially inert.

John

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

My guess - based on the origin of the cars and Hercules' business
in
printing and paper chemicals - is that they were hauling paper-
making
chemicals.

Think about it: If they acquired a company that used and owned
tank cars,
wouldn't it be logical for them to continue those tank cars in the
same
service?

With respect to nitroglycerin, I can assure you from my time
working with
nitroglycerin at Hercules' Magna Utah explosives plant that it
would be
impossible to transport nitrogylcerin in a conventional tank car.
I suspect
you'll find that it was also illegal.

KL

----- Original Message -----
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hile" <john66h@> wrote:

Hello All,

I've gathered the following info on Hercules Powder Co (HPCX)
8000g,
type 21 tanks with the hope of modeling a couple circa 1952-53
using
the factory decorated Proto 2000 kits. As I understand it, these
cars
are former Paper Makers Chem Co (PMCX) which received new
reporting
marks but kept their orig numbers when Hercules acquired PMC.


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John Carty wrote:
You are correct, no sane person would ship nitroglycerin by tank car. The components (nitro and glycerin) would ship that way, as both are essentially inert.
Don't know what "nitro" is, but you can make the explosive by reacting nitric acid with glycerin. I don't know if that's the commercial process.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

My guess - based on the origin of the cars and Hercules' business in
printing and paper chemicals - is that they were hauling paper-making
chemicals.
I believe Kurt is on the right track here. From the nice Hercules
company history at
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Hercules-Inc-Company-History.html

"The paper products division began in 1931 with the purchase of Paper
Makers Chemical Corporation, which provided 70 percent of U.S. demand
for the rosin "sizing" used to stiffen paper."


-John Hile


Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

Nitro is a little pill you take when you have heart problems.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@comcast.net
Boca Raton FL 33434
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left.

On Feb 28, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

John Carty wrote:
You are correct, no sane person would ship nitroglycerin by tank car.
The components (nitro and glycerin) would ship that way, as both are
essentially inert.
Don't know what "nitro" is, but you can make the explosive by
reacting nitric acid with glycerin. I don't know if that's the
commercial process.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links



Raymond Young
 

Hello all,

Concentrated Sulfuric Acid is used in the process to absorb water given off in the reaction between Nitriic Acid and Glycerin. There would probably be some Sulfuric Acid cars going to the plant. Children: Don't try this at home!

Regards,

Virgil Young
Amarillo, TX

----- Original Message ----
From: Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:34:19 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Hercules 8000g Type 21 Tanks

Nitro is a little pill you take when you have heart problems.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@comcast. net
Boca Raton FL 33434
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left.

On Feb 28, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

John Carty wrote:
You are correct, no sane person would ship nitroglycerin by tank car.
The components (nitro and glycerin) would ship that way, as both are
essentially inert.
Don't know what "nitro" is, but you can make the explosive by
reacting nitric acid with glycerin. I don't know if that's the
commercial process.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@signaturep ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links



Peter Ness
 

Thanks very much for posting that link! That's a great history and
more complete than I have stumbled across in a couple of half-hearted
attempts.

For my modeling efforts, my assumption is the tank cars were used to
carry products used in the printing industry which survived in the
Boston area into the period I model.

Now, if I could only learn where the cars were routed from to get on
the New Haven...the two photos I have show cars in Boston (a terminal
yard most likely for these cars) and Cedar Hill; but traffic from
Maybrook and the New York float facilities was routed through Cedar
Hill, so I am no wiser as to the connecting railroad...

Anyone aware of these cars routed via either Pennsy, B&O, DL&W,
Erie? Any of these would help nail down the routing. My opinion
only, but these cars were fun to build compared to the IM SHPX tanks,
and I went so far as to contact Walthers to find out if the well-
printed placards were available as a separate part.

Regards,
Peter
http://www.freewebs.com/newhavenrailroad1959/

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@> wrote:

My guess - based on the origin of the cars and Hercules' business
in
printing and paper chemicals - is that they were hauling paper-
making
chemicals.
I believe Kurt is on the right track here. From the nice Hercules
company history at
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Hercules-Inc-
Company-History.html

"The paper products division began in 1931 with the purchase of
Paper
Makers Chemical Corporation, which provided 70 percent of U.S.
demand
for the rosin "sizing" used to stiffen paper."


-John Hile


Michael A. Shelley <mashelley@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:

Hello All,

I've gathered the following info on Hercules Powder Co (HPCX) 8000g,
type 21 tanks with the hope of modeling a couple circa 1952-53 using
the factory decorated Proto 2000 kits. As I understand it, these cars
are former Paper Makers Chem Co (PMCX) which received new reporting
marks but kept their orig numbers when Hercules acquired PMC. Problem
is, I have some conflicting and incomplete info...
<snip>


I have at least one of these kits, although I forget which number(s).
On a slight tangent, were any of these cars built prior to 1925? I
would like to back-date them by installing K-brakes and more
appropriate trucks, at a minimum.

I will be getting a reprint of the RMJ Feb 1998 article, so I don't yet
know if this information is contained there.

Thanks,
Michael A. Shelley


Bruce Smith
 

I have at least one of these kits, although I forget which number(s).
On a slight tangent, were any of these cars built prior to 1925? I
would like to back-date them by installing K-brakes and more
appropriate trucks, at a minimum.
The type 21 was developed in 1921 and many were built with K-brakes. Walthers has just released the type 21 with K brakes, so you might want to look into those kits.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Michael A. Shelley" <mashelley@...> wrote:

I have at least one of these kits, although I forget which number(s).
On a slight tangent, were any of these cars built prior to 1925?
Michael,

In the 2/98 RMJ article you will get a builder's photo for PMCX 718,
blt 12/28, with K (KC?) brakes.

-John Hile


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 29, 2008, at 6:22 AM, Michael A. Shelley wrote:

I have at least one of these kits, although I forget which number(s).
On a slight tangent, were any of these cars built prior to 1925? I
would like to back-date them by installing K-brakes and more
appropriate trucks, at a minimum.
I have builder's photos of three PMCX 8K gal. Type 21s: PMCX 109,
built in June, 1927; PMCX 156, built in Jan., 1928; and PMCX 716, built
in Dec., 1828. All had KC air brakes. PMCX 109 was delivered with
arch bar trucks; the other two cars had ARA cast steel trucks with
spring planks. PMCX 109 and 156 were stenciled "Holyoke, Mass." while
PMCX 716 was stenciled "Marrero, LA."
I also have a builder's photo of PMCX 568, an 8K gal. Type 27 built in
Nov., 1929, stenciled "North Milwaukee, Wisconsin." Obviously Paper
Makers Chemical had plants all over the place, though the 1920s ORERs
show their headquarters to be in Holyoke, MA.

Richard Hendrickson


Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Peter,

How often were tank cars boarded on a float? Just because I don't recall a photo of one does not mean they never went by water. My first thought was Maybrook; and depending on the time frame one could trace a routing. My bet is with Maybrook. You might have some luck on the NH group site. I've had very good replies from it's members about PRR / NH joint ops.

Fred Freitas

Peter Ness <prness@roadrunner.com> wrote:
Thanks very much for posting that link! That's a great history and
more complete than I have stumbled across in a couple of half-hearted
attempts.

For my modeling efforts, my assumption is the tank cars were used to
carry products used in the printing industry which survived in the
Boston area into the period I model.

Now, if I could only learn where the cars were routed from to get on
the New Haven...the two photos I have show cars in Boston (a terminal
yard most likely for these cars) and Cedar Hill; but traffic from
Maybrook and the New York float facilities was routed through Cedar
Hill, so I am no wiser as to the connecting railroad...

Anyone aware of these cars routed via either Pennsy, B&O, DL&W,
Erie? Any of these would help nail down the routing. My opinion
only, but these cars were fun to build compared to the IM SHPX tanks,
and I went so far as to contact Walthers to find out if the well-
printed placards were available as a separate part.

Regards,
Peter
http://www.freewebs.com/newhavenrailroad1959/

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@> wrote:

My guess - based on the origin of the cars and Hercules' business
in
printing and paper chemicals - is that they were hauling paper-
making
chemicals.
I believe Kurt is on the right track here. From the nice Hercules
company history at
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Hercules-Inc-
Company-History.html

"The paper products division began in 1931 with the purchase of
Paper
Makers Chemical Corporation, which provided 70 percent of U.S.
demand
for the rosin "sizing" used to stiffen paper."


-John Hile


John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:
Richard, thanks for the info on the HPCX Type 21's.

-John Hile