Buyer Beware: InterMountain Milwaukee Road Rib-Side Box Car


Ed Hawkins
 

STMFC Discussion Group,
In case any STMFC members were considering buying any of the new Milwaukee Road postwar rib-side box cars produced by InterMountain, you should be aware that the model is royally screwed up and unfixable. The sides have a couple of deficiencies, and the ends and roof are simply awful. In addition to InterMountain's apparent inability to interpret plans and photographs, they also didn't bother to understand the body of these cars were all welded. They actually went to extra work to add a row of rivets on the sides of the roof eaves where there should be no rivets present. I'm posting this message so that potential buyers are made aware of major shortcomings with the model.

Sides:
The right side of the car lacks a horizontal raised overlapping seam that runs continuously just above the side sill. The left side has it, so they just forgot to tool it one the right side! Also, the sides lack the slightly recessed sheets on both sides of the door frame. On the model the area around the door frame is flush with the ribbed side sheets. InterMountain got the recessed side pans nearest the ends right, but missed doing the same thing to the side pan sheets on both sides of the door.

Ends:
Instead of the ends of the main corrugations being rounded (like all Improved Dreadnaught Ends were), the model's ends have angled flat spots that basically look like the outer portions were filed flat (i.e., chamfer). Also, unlike AAR box cars, the top of the Milwaukee Road end was flat across the top and the roof was prefabricated by welding and applied as a single unit. This resulted in a prominent horizontal flange at the top of the end that is quite visible in any photo showing the end. The top of the InterMountain end is flush and lacks this flange.

Roof:
The roof is integral to the sides and ends that form the car body. The formed double roof corrugations and the wider pressed stiffener on the outboard end panels are too short near the edge of the roof. The prototype cars had the raised corrugations fair down to the edge of the roof, whereas corrugations on the model abruptly stop approximately 4" short of the edge of the roof. Refer to page 55 of RP CYC Vol. 13 for what the roof should look like. Some prototype cars had diagonal panel roofs.

Floor:
The separate floor has a wide cast-on coupler box, whereas this should be left off and either allow modelers to add couplers of their choice, or for the assembled models in China, have separate coupler boxes to accept Kadee couplers like InterMountain has done on many of their kits in the past. The molded-on coupler boxes is a step backwards.

After finding the features of the car body as they are, I didn't bother to look at the underframe and other detail parts (what's the point?).

One last comment about the model's construction method. I truly don't understand why on this model InterMountain reverted back to the Athearn-type car body, which has an integral roof with the sides and ends rather than the floor being integral and a separate roof. The latter method has been used by InterMountain for the past 20 years. This is not an error as such, but my personal preference is to have the integral floor and separate roof vs. an integral roof and separate floor.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Ed Hawkins wrote:
"In case any STMFC members were considering buying any of the new
Milwaukee Road postwar rib-side box cars produced by InterMountain,
you should be aware that the model is royally screwed up and
unfixable."

This, of course, guarantees that the Model Railroader review will
say "this is an excellent model that many model rairoaders would be
happy to have on their layouts."


Ben Hom


Carl J. Marsico <Carlmarsico@...>
 

...and after these don't sell (to those that don't treat MR like a Bible), IMRC will assume "MILW doesn't sell, let's do (foobie) WP ex-MILW cars (in more numbers than WP actually had)" and after that, factory-weathered cars of each when the dust and cobwebs start to get out of hand.

Finally, it will be "we can't do any more railroad-specific cars because they don't sell." Maybe they need to join the Scenery Forum to be able to see the forest for the trees.

CJM

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...> wrote:
Ed Hawkins wrote:
"In case any STMFC members were considering buying any of the new
Milwaukee Road postwar rib-side box cars produced by InterMountain,
you should be aware that the model is royally screwed up and
unfixable."

This, of course, guarantees that the Model Railroader review will
say "this is an excellent model that many model rairoaders would be
happy to have on their layouts."

Ben Hom


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Ed;



Thanks for bring this to our attention. This seems to be one of the only
places you can go to hear honest information.



With all that being said, what is YOUR current vote for the best (not
perfect) MILW ribside in HO?



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Ed
Hawkins
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:11 AM
To: STMFC Discussion Group
Subject: [STMFC] Buyer Beware: InterMountain Milwaukee Road Rib-Side Box Car



STMFC Discussion Group,
In case any STMFC members were considering buying any of the new
Milwaukee Road postwar rib-side box cars produced by InterMountain, you
should be aware that the model is royally screwed up and unfixable. The
sides have a couple of deficiencies, and the ends and roof are simply
awful. In addition to InterMountain's apparent inability to interpret
plans and photographs, they also didn't bother to understand the body
of these cars were all welded. They actually went to extra work to add
a row of rivets on the sides of the roof eaves where there should be no
rivets present. I'm posting this message so that potential buyers are
made aware of major shortcomings with the model.

Sides:
The right side of the car lacks a horizontal raised overlapping seam
that runs continuously just above the side sill. The left side has it,
so they just forgot to tool it one the right side! Also, the sides lack
the slightly recessed sheets on both sides of the door frame. On the
model the area around the door frame is flush with the ribbed side
sheets. InterMountain got the recessed side pans nearest the ends
right, but missed doing the same thing to the side pan sheets on both
sides of the door.

Ends:
Instead of the ends of the main corrugations being rounded (like all
Improved Dreadnaught Ends were), the model's ends have angled flat
spots that basically look like the outer portions were filed flat
(i.e., chamfer). Also, unlike AAR box cars, the top of the Milwaukee
Road end was flat across the top and the roof was prefabricated by
welding and applied as a single unit. This resulted in a prominent
horizontal flange at the top of the end that is quite visible in any
photo showing the end. The top of the InterMountain end is flush and
lacks this flange.

Roof:
The roof is integral to the sides and ends that form the car body. The
formed double roof corrugations and the wider pressed stiffener on the
outboard end panels are too short near the edge of the roof. The
prototype cars had the raised corrugations fair down to the edge of the
roof, whereas corrugations on the model abruptly stop approximately 4"
short of the edge of the roof. Refer to page 55 of RP CYC Vol. 13 for
what the roof should look like. Some prototype cars had diagonal panel
roofs.

Floor:
The separate floor has a wide cast-on coupler box, whereas this should
be left off and either allow modelers to add couplers of their choice,
or for the assembled models in China, have separate coupler boxes to
accept Kadee couplers like InterMountain has done on many of their kits
in the past. The molded-on coupler boxes is a step backwards.

After finding the features of the car body as they are, I didn't bother
to look at the underframe and other detail parts (what's the point?).

One last comment about the model's construction method. I truly don't
understand why on this model InterMountain reverted back to the
Athearn-type car body, which has an integral roof with the sides and
ends rather than the floor being integral and a separate roof. The
latter method has been used by InterMountain for the past 20 years.
This is not an error as such, but my personal preference is to have the
integral floor and separate roof vs. an integral roof and separate
floor.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Thanks Ed,
I have cancelled my order if possible (meaning I hope my guy can cancel)!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Ed Hawkins
 

On Apr 17, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

With all that being said, what is YOUR current vote for the best (not
perfect) MILW ribside in HO?
Elden,
The Sunshine kit #41. Of course, this is only one version of the many
versions that were built.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

Whew,
Now I can justify building the kit I got for $20!
joe binish

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Hawkins" <hawk0621@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Buyer Beware: InterMountain Milwaukee Road Rib-Side Box Car



On Apr 17, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

With all that being said, what is YOUR current vote for the best (not
perfect) MILW ribside in HO?
Elden,
The Sunshine kit #41. Of course, this is only one version of the many
versions that were built.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:

STMFC Discussion Group,
In case any STMFC members were considering buying any of the new
Milwaukee Road postwar rib-side box cars produced by InterMountain,
you
should be aware that the model is royally screwed up and unfixable.
It is unfortunate that these errors were made, especially as MILW
ribside car photos and plans aren't rare. A review of the test shots of
the GN plywood side boxcar also reveal some egregious deficiencies,
again confusing, because photos of these cars aren't rare. IM is
supposed to be fixing them, but we will see. Makes me wonder what the
covered hopper will look like.


Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

Was this car actually cut/tooled by IM or are they using dies cut by
someone else? Seems like I have been hearing about some things like
this car, B&O Wagon, etc top that have been around for a couple of
years that were cut by someone with no production outlet/capacity.

Hope I am not starting another rumor, but only continuing one.

Bill Welch

Bill Welch


--- In STMFC@..., "gn3397" <heninger@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@> wrote:

STMFC Discussion Group,
In case any STMFC members were considering buying any of the new
Milwaukee Road postwar rib-side box cars produced by
InterMountain,
you
should be aware that the model is royally screwed up and
unfixable.

It is unfortunate that these errors were made, especially as MILW
ribside car photos and plans aren't rare. A review of the test
shots of
the GN plywood side boxcar also reveal some egregious
deficiencies,
again confusing, because photos of these cars aren't rare. IM is
supposed to be fixing them, but we will see. Makes me wonder what
the
covered hopper will look like.


Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

All this and they won't even sell kits for the ATSF Caswell. I even asked if they would put a dozen kits/sprues in a sack and quote me a price. No response.
And to keep the gripe going I saw pictures of test shots of the (HO) FTs a couple of years ago. Very nice but will they paint them in freight colors, no, just another bunch of Warbonnets.
Where did the understanding of the hobby (their sales) go????

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Charlie Vlk
 

Bill-
I am not sure why the "Buyer Beware" tag on the subject..... beware of a car that hasn't hit the showing of test shots stage??
If the RUMORS are correct, the tooling you mention originates with the same guy who has been doing some of the
premier tookng work for a number of well-respected manufacturers.
Besides, given the criticism that greets any new product, regardless of what
importer or manufacturer and what toolmaker worked on the project.....does it make any difference who intitiated the tooling?
I don't think the Milwaukee Road Rib-Side Boxcar is one of the "floaters" that you allude to; I was at the Intermountain booth when
the prototype drawings were being handed off to Intermountain people a few years ago.
Unless they contracted an outside toolmaker it is in queue for their normal development process.
Charlie Vlk

Was this car actually cut/tooled by IM or are they using dies cut by
someone else? Seems like I have been hearing about some things like
this car, B&O Wagon, etc top that have been around for a couple of
years that were cut by someone with no production outlet/capacity.

Hope I am not starting another rumor, but only continuing one.

Bill Welch

.


Carl J. Marsico <Carlmarsico@...>
 

Given the separate floor (vs. separate roof), it could be the case that these are in fact someone else's work.

If so, they still could (and should) inspect the dies before purchase and make a reasonable determination whether the dies could be purchased and upgraded/corrected in a cost-efficient manner.

CJM

lnbill <bwelch@...> wrote:
Was this car actually cut/tooled by IM or are they using dies cut by
someone else? Seems like I have been hearing about some things like
this car, B&O Wagon, etc top that have been around for a couple of
years that were cut by someone with no production outlet/capacity.

Hope I am not starting another rumor, but only continuing one.

Bill Welch

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "gn3397" <heninger@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@> wrote:

STMFC Discussion Group,
In case any STMFC members were considering buying any of the new
Milwaukee Road postwar rib-side box cars produced by
InterMountain,
you
should be aware that the model is royally screwed up and
unfixable.

It is unfortunate that these errors were made, especially as MILW
ribside car photos and plans aren't rare. A review of the test
shots of
the GN plywood side boxcar also reveal some egregious
deficiencies,
again confusing, because photos of these cars aren't rare. IM is
supposed to be fixing them, but we will see. Makes me wonder what
the
covered hopper will look like.


Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


Carl J. Marsico <Carlmarsico@...>
 

It seems like the "understanding" is "throw on a bunch of stand-alone details, add DCC and sound (if applicable), and no matter how FUBAR the end result is, it will sell"

Jon Miller <atsf@...> wrote: All this and they won't even sell kits for the ATSF Caswell. I even
asked if they would put a dozen kits/sprues in a sack and quote me a price.
No response.
And to keep the gripe going I saw pictures of test shots of the (HO) FTs
a couple of years ago. Very nice but will they paint them in freight
colors, no, just another bunch of Warbonnets.
Where did the understanding of the hobby (their sales) go????

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

Sounds like IM has gone from meticulous well-made product to what can only
be described as old Athearn blue box. This goes hand-in-hand with the
egregious errors made in colors on various locomotive and rolling stock
offerings.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni



From: gn3397 <heninger@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:16:20 -0000
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Buyer Beware: InterMountain Milwaukee Road Rib-Side Box
Car




--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Ed Hawkins
<hawk0621@...> wrote:

STMFC Discussion Group,
In case any STMFC members were considering buying any of the new
Milwaukee Road postwar rib-side box cars produced by InterMountain,
you
should be aware that the model is royally screwed up and unfixable.
It is unfortunate that these errors were made, especially as MILW
ribside car photos and plans aren't rare. A review of the test shots of
the GN plywood side boxcar also reveal some egregious deficiencies,
again confusing, because photos of these cars aren't rare. IM is
supposed to be fixing them, but we will see. Makes me wonder what the
covered hopper will look like.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Jon Miller asked:
"Where did the understanding of the hobby (their sales) go????"

He moved inside the Beltway and went back to working for the Navy.


Ben Hom


Charlie Vlk
 

One of the dangers of having email displayed with the most recent on top is I can respond to a partial comment
that doesn't reveal the depth of discussion that went on previously.
In this case I didn't know that the IM MILW car is out and has been gone over by experts.
I think this is just a case where IM screwed up, not some covert acquisition of tooling. They have in-house tool and die people and
some previous products have had errors (as almost all commerical products do). Hopefully they will use that capability
to fix the errors and will listen to opinions on some of the other issues (construction methods, coupler boxes).
Charlie Vlk


Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Thanks, Ed!



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Ed
Hawkins
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:41 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Buyer Beware: InterMountain Milwaukee Road Rib-Side Box
Car




On Apr 17, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

With all that being said, what is YOUR current vote for the best (not
perfect) MILW ribside in HO?
Elden,
The Sunshine kit #41. Of course, this is only one version of the many
versions that were built.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

There is no such thing as cutting a mold and having no production outlet to run it. You cut a mold then look in your phone book under plastic. Almost any shop listed will run it for you. Then you can look under printers and get any king of packaging you want. Then you can package it yourself or hire some soccer moms to do it for you.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
Boca Raton FL 33434
My parents did not raise
any stupid children. They
sent the ten of us to the
neighbors to play and then
moved. They raised the four
of us that found them.

On Apr 17, 2008, at 12:35 PM, lnbill wrote:

Was this car actually cut/tooled by IM or are they using dies cut by
someone else? Seems like I have been hearing about some things like
this car, B&O Wagon, etc top that have been around for a couple of
years that were cut by someone with no production outlet/capacity.

Hope I am not starting another rumor, but only continuing one.

Bill Welch

Bill Welch


lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

I understand what you are saying Larry, but I guess I was thinking it
might require capital to do that.

I am admittedly still frustrated with the poor job IM did with their
woodsheathed reefer, so my thinking may be clouded about IM.

Bill Welch


Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

When I was Smokey Valley I had no trouble with money as my banker would loan me some when I needed some.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
Boca Raton FL 33434
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left.

On Apr 17, 2008, at 2:02 PM, lnbill wrote:

I understand what you are saying Larry, but I guess I was thinking it
might require capital to do that.

I am admittedly still frustrated with the poor job IM did with their
woodsheathed reefer, so my thinking may be clouded about IM.

Bill Welch


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links