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another caboose construction question
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ed_mines
Did wood cabooses have tar paper (or maybe car cement?) on their roofs
in the steam era? It's logical, particularly if the crew slept in them. Ed
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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:
Ed, Railroads typically didn't use tar paper (roofing felt) on equipment, because it didn't hold up to the rigors of the service. Typical caboose roofs on wood cars were canvas stretched over a smooth arched roof, either painted, or coated with tar. This is a technique long used on ships to make a water tight coating. Some cars have peaked roofs with the boards exposed; these were typically two layers of boards with a layer of roofing felt in between. The outer layer pg boards protected the felt from both wind and weather. Dennis
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cj riley <cjriley42@...>
I have been quietly ignoring references to "tar paper" roofing in the commercial press as well as here and I have to comment. Tar paper, properly called building or roofing felt is NOT a roofing material except for short term or temporary use. What modelers shoulkd be referring to is "rolled roofing". That is the material often used on structure roofs. It is similar to asphalt shingles, with a granular material as a finish and comes in multiple colors.
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As we try to match the prototype in our modeling, it is important to know and use correct terminology. Please help to eliminate references to tar paper, except as an underlayment material. CJ Riley retired architect
--- On Wed, 5/28/08, ed_mines <ed_mines@...> wrote:
From: ed_mines <ed_mines@...>
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proto48er
Was this the "mule hide roof" used on passenger equipment in the
steam era? I was eating at the Machine Shop restaurant in Olathe, Kansas some years ago, right under an old porcelan sign that advertised "Mule Hide Roofing" for barns, etc. (I was hoping that there would be a lathe or milling machine or two in there, but it was a restaurant themed on crop harvesting-type machines instead!) Inquiring minds want to know! A.T. Kott --- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote: roofs equipment,in the steam era? because it didn't hold up to the rigors of the service. Typicalarched roof, either painted, or coated with tar. This is a technique long
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Dick
FROM wisegeek.com
_Cotton_ (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-cotton.htm) duck is a type of textile. It is used in a wide range of industries, and can be found used in the manufacture of shoes, _slipcovers_ (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-slipcover.htm) for furniture, work clothes, sails, bags, and a variety of other things. As a general rule, cotton duck is plain, but very strong. The classic color is unbleached white, but many manufacturers also dye their cotton duck to meet consumer demand for other colors. It is available by the yard at many fabric stores. For those readers visualizing waterfowl made from textiles, the origins of the term “cotton duck” are unfortunately more mundane. It comes from a Dutch word, doek, which means “_linen_ (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-linen.htm) canvas.” The “cotton” is added to distinguish it from traditional duck. Cotton duck is, however, involved with the history of duct tape, sometimes called duck tape. The original duct tape was in fact made from cotton duck, treated with a special adhesive. There are 10 grades of cotton duck which distinguish from one, the most heavy, to ten, the most lightweight. The grades refer to the weight and thickness of the cotton duck, and are standardized across most of the textile industry. Grades are assigned on the basis of how much a piece of fabric of a specific size weighs. Individual traditional names for each grade are still used by some people, but they do not have specific grades attached. The durability of cotton duck makes it a great choice for situations in which a strong, hardy fabric is needed. Many hard laborers, for example, swear by the quality of garments made with cotton duck, which protect them from the perils of the workplace. Popular brands of shoes are made with cotton duck, which also appears on director's chairs, tents, and pillowcases for outdoor furniture. White cotton duck can be bleached if it is soiled, making it an excellent choice for hard wearing environments. Like other textiles made from cotton, duck is relatively easy to care for. In most cases, it can be washed and dried at any temperature. It will become more soft and flexible with time, ultimately breaking down at areas of high stress. Cotton duck also takes dye readily. When used as a garment, cotton duck can be stiff and unwieldy at first, but it will settle within a few washings and wearings, and it should start to feel like a second skin. Dick Kashdin Clarence, NY **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:
There is a Mule-Hide Roofing Co... "Not a kick in a million feet"... that makes membrane roofing products for architectural use, but I'm not aware they had a product specific to the railroad industry. They may have at one time. Do you have a specific reference in company documents? The name still won't tell us what it is, as they use their trade name across a whole variety of products. See: http://www.mulehide.com/corporate/about_us.html Dennis
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proto48er
Dennis -
I have some wood passenger car diagrams that call for a mule hide roof on the cars. These are MP diagrams for StLB&M and NOT&M baggage cars with steel underframes. I have also seen the same roof on other diagrams, but cannot remember which roads - probably M-K-T and/or SP (SA&AP). I do recall that the MP cars specifically had a mule hide roof - was astounded to see the advertising sign at the restaurant. A.T. Kott --- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote: Olathe, thatKansas some years ago, right under an old porcelan sign that wasthere would be a lathe or milling machine or two in there, but it theira restaurant themed on crop harvesting-type machines instead!) trade name across a whole variety of products. See:
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George Simmons
--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:
I do recall that the MP cars specifically had a mule hide roof - was astounded to see the advertising sign at the restaurant.The following link shows an ad from the 1920's with several Mule Hide products for railroads http://thelibrary.springfield.missouri.org/lochist/frisco/magazines/fem_ 1928_12/fem_1928_12_61.pdf George W. Simmons Dry Prong, LA
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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "George W Simmons" <GEORGESIMMONS@...>
wrote:
That's cool. "Waterproof canvas"... similar to a tarp. "Plastic car roofing" in 1928 I think would be asphalt emulsion, like car cement. The term persists today as "plastic roof patching compound." I suppose if a diagram listed "Mule-Hide roof", it means it's a canvas roof, or a canvas roof coated with asphalt. Dennis.
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train_junkie
In the 1909 Haskell & Barker plan I have for WP and D&RG cabooses, the
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roofing material is simply listed as 'Cotton Duck 110" Wide'. Is it possible that canvas, Mule Hide and cotton duck are all the same basic material? Mike Mucklin
That's cool.
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train_junkie
Ya' gotta' love the 'net. That's fascinating Dick, thanks for digging
that up and posting it. Now that I know what cotton duck is, I can see how it might be described as "canvas" in reference ot freight car roofs. Perhaps the "Mule Hide" often referred to in freight car construction was cotton duck treated or coated with some sort of black waterproof sealant. Cheers! Mike Mucklin --- In STMFC@..., wb2raj@... wrote: type of textile. It is used in a wide range of industries, and can be foundused in the manufacture of shoes, _slipcovers_work clothes, sails, bags, and a variety of other things. As a general rule, cotton duck is plain, but very strong.<SNIP>
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Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Mike M" <train_junkie@...> wrote:
If the specification says "cotton duck", I'd say that means raw natural canvas, painted or otherwise sealed after application. If it says "Mule-Hide", I suspect they mean whatever treated canvas product Mule-Hide was selling. Since the ad calls it "waterproof canvas" I'd suspect it's pretreated with oil or paraffin or something, lake canvas tarps used to be. I worked on and with some of these materials back in my railway museum days in the seventies. I hope Mike can bear with the mention of streetcars, interurbans, and passenger cars for a moment; we'll get back to freight cars eventually, cabooses anyway. The roofs on trolley cars were traditionally wood, since there is a lot of high voltage equipment up there, and a wood roof is a good insulator for anyone who has to work close to the live conductors. Trolley cars were traditionally roofed with natural cotton duck, because it stretches well; necessary to deal with the compound curves on the ends. Steam road coaches have less severe curves at the end, so apparently pre-treated canvas could be used. On some trolley cars the curvature is severe enough that one needs to wet the canvas to get it to stretch and let it shrink in place. The roofs are done with the minimum number of pieces; arch roof cars are typically done with one piece, if material of sufficient width isn't available, it is seamed down the middle with a triple stitched seam like a trap. The edges are turned under and tacked with about a million tacks; tacks on 1" centers in two staggered rows about ¾" apart was typical. On really sharp builders photos one can often see the pattern of the tacks, and sometimes little puckers at the corners. We used to have quite a bit of debate about whether it was proper to "tar" new canvas. One school of thought is that canvas should be finished with oil paint, which was what was typically done on marine vessels, which is where the membrane system seems to have originated. Linseed oil is a naturally occurring polymerizing oil that doesn't harden completely for a long time, the end result of painting with pigmented oil is a somewhat flexible waterproof membrane reinforced by the cotton fibers. There is ample evidence that this was done to a large extent, because there are many examples of Terra Cotta red, brown, gray, and olive roofs on prototype wood equipment. The argument against using asphalt emulsions, like car cement, is that the solvents dry out and the material gets hard and brittle more quickly, then cracks, which lets water seep into the cracks and rot the cotton fibers. Nevertheless, I've removed examples of old canvas with asphalt bleeding through the weave, which seems to prove that this was the first and only material applied to the new canvas. The purpose of the treated Mule-Hide product may have been to make the canvas itself less susceptible to decay. Either way, when roofs got old, the accepted practice was to mop them with asphalt emulsion to seal the little leaks and hold them together for a while longer, so older roofs tend to be black. One of the things that connects "tar paper" to cabooses in people's minds is preserved display cabooses. Once `Ol 97's caboose went into the park, the Parks Dept. treated it like a building, and used building materials to try to keep it from leaking. I've done a lot of that myself. When preserved equipment has to sit out in the weather, the first priority is to keep it from leaking and deteriorating further, even if the materials aren't 100% correct. We used to use a product called "pilot roofing" quite a bit; this was 90# smooth felt, like roll roofing but without the granules. On a flat roof, or one that curved in only one plane, like an arched roof caboose, this could work quite well. The biggest problem was the 3' width of the material. These wood roofs are really quite thin; 13/16" was common, but so was 9/16", and the big roofing nails would split it severely. We would occasionally run the strips across the car so it was only nailed into the heavy molding provided for this purpose at the eaves, simply gluing the seams together with asphalt roofing cement. Coaches were much more difficult to do with roofing felt, the curved ends had to be pieced, and the end result looked more like a sheet copper roof as used on some older passenger equipment, but that's a subject for another list. Dennis
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golden1014
Hi Ed,
Seaboard's common steam era 3cc, 4cc and 5cc-class cabooses were delivered with tar paper ("rolled roof material") roofs. John Golden Bloomington, IN --- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote: roofs in the steam era?
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