I love this photo!


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Jerry--

Thank you for the link. TKM is a very nice magazine. And the photos
in the latest issue show some very nice modelling work, too.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "jerryglow2" <jerryglow@...> wrote:

I'll jump in to give you a quick response. It's an "ezine" available
as PDFs from:
http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm
They keep recent issues available for free download and have CDs of
archived issues available for a fee.

Jerry Glow


jerryglow2
 

I'll jump in to give you a quick response. It's an "ezine" available
as PDFs from:
http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm
They keep recent issues available for free download and have CDs of
archived issues available for a fee.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Elden--

Is TKM a printed magazine, or it is available on-line?

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
<elden.j.gatwood@> wrote:

BTW, the July issue of TKM has a whole lot of photos illustrating
these
points. Take a look....



Elden Gatwood


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Steve Lucas asked:
"Is TKM a printed magazine, or it is available on-line?"

Online.
http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm


Ben Hom


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Elden--

Is TKM a printed magazine, or it is available on-line?

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
<elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

BTW, the July issue of TKM has a whole lot of photos illustrating
these
points. Take a look....



Elden Gatwood


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Guys;



One of the things I find interesting is that people are trying much harder to
"get it right" now.



I remember not too long ago, going to meets, and seeing PRR freight and
cabins cars painted bright caboose red, or really brown brown.



Nowadays folks are painting "new" cars much more consistently a color that
looks like, say PRR Freight Car Color (or your road's color). They are also
differing the base color appropriately for a given era. We might attribute
this to the wider dissemination of information that has occurred on lists
like this, the wide availability of color photos, web mags, and the in-depth
discussions that occur on these subjects, periodically.



That being said, we still do not have a good model paint match for a number
of PRR paints, leaving a hit or miss proposition with each project.



BTW, the July issue of TKM has a whole lot of photos illustrating these
points. Take a look....



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Steve
Lucas
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 8:51 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: I love this photo!



Tony--

Yes, the cars would have been originally painted with identical spec
paint (likely matched from wet paint samples as CN did?). After all,
the P-Company WAS "The Standard Railroad of the World". I can only
agree with your assessment about the factors that produced the
variation in car colour that we see in this photo.

Another factor I'd submit to explain colour variation on cars painted
with paint meeting the railroad's standard--the use of different
formulae and/or raw material for paint by different manufacturers,
including changes made by them over the course of many years. All
the manufacturer would have had to do was match the PRR Standard
(drift card or wet paint sample) at the time of sale of their product
to the PRR. The paints may have weathered differently SUBSEQUENT to
their application. Not to mention quality of preparation for
painting in each car shop ( Altoona vs other PRR shops, for
example?), and condition of the car's steelwork that the paint was
applied to.

CN actually stencilled in the late 1950's, using about 1"
stencilling, some boxcars just above the reporting marks with the
name of the manufacturer of paint used, shop symbol, and date
applied.

And the inside of each hopper car in the Shorpy photo--quite a
variation as well. All of which presents either a challenge, or as I
prefer--a lot of fun with painting and weathering for the modeller.

I have a similar colour photo from the Dave Shaw collection showing
quite a variation of "standard colour" on CN cars at Palmerston, ON,
(that I use when someone questions me about "CN standard paint
colours" on MY models) but this Jack Delano photo is more likely to
be in the public domain. Thanks to the gent that gave us the Shorpy
website reference in the first place. There are a lot of good colour
STMFC (mostly Jack Delano WWII) photos on it.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Anthony
Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas wrote:
Yet there is quite a variance in car colour, and the PRR would
certianly have painted them all with "PRR STANDARD" paint.
This shows why I don't get too hung up on paint matching--the
prototype didn't---.
I should have added this--"after the cars were placed in service".

Steve, I don't think your conclusion is logical. Nothing I can
see
in the image contradicts the idea that every car was ORIGINALLY
painted
the identical color, but at different times, and has encountered
different kinds and amounts of weathering.
And the glimpse of interior color and weathering variations
is
perhaps more interesting than the OUTSIDES of the cars.
Of course, Schuyler's point is relevant too. Few modelers of
PRR
or any road have model cars with this range of exterior color.
After
all, they "wouldn't look right."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


asychis@...
 

Interesting that the brake wheel shafts look like they'd be best modeled by
dull brass wire!

Jerry Michels



**************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
(http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)


William Bryk <wmbryk@...>
 

This sounds like the ongoing argument about DT&I orange. A modeler should
simply aim for the target as his integrity dictates. If he's able to model
a given car as he determines it looked on the given day that he's modeling
(I see several numbers in this photograph, for example) then he's doing just
fine.

More to the point, cars painted in the same paint at different points in
time, even by the Standard Railroad of the World, are going to look
different due to weathering.

Regards,
William Bryk

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

Tony--

Yes, the cars would have been originally painted with identical spec
paint (likely matched from wet paint samples as CN did?). After all,
the P-Company WAS "The Standard Railroad of the World". I can only
agree with your assessment about the factors that produced the
variation in car colour that we see in this photo.

Another factor I'd submit to explain colour variation on cars painted
with paint meeting the railroad's standard--the use of different
formulae and/or raw material for paint by different manufacturers,
including changes made by them over the course of many years. All
the manufacturer would have had to do was match the PRR Standard
(drift card or wet paint sample) at the time of sale of their product
to the PRR. The paints may have weathered differently SUBSEQUENT to
their application. Not to mention quality of preparation for
painting in each car shop ( Altoona vs other PRR shops, for
example?), and condition of the car's steelwork that the paint was
applied to.

CN actually stencilled in the late 1950's, using about 1"
stencilling, some boxcars just above the reporting marks with the
name of the manufacturer of paint used, shop symbol, and date
applied.

And the inside of each hopper car in the Shorpy photo--quite a
variation as well. All of which presents either a challenge, or as I
prefer--a lot of fun with painting and weathering for the modeller.

I have a similar colour photo from the Dave Shaw collection showing
quite a variation of "standard colour" on CN cars at Palmerston, ON,
(that I use when someone questions me about "CN standard paint
colours" on MY models) but this Jack Delano photo is more likely to
be in the public domain. Thanks to the gent that gave us the Shorpy
website reference in the first place. There are a lot of good colour
STMFC (mostly Jack Delano WWII) photos on it.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@... <STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, Anthony Thompson
<thompson@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas wrote:
Yet there is quite a variance in car colour, and the PRR would
certianly have painted them all with "PRR STANDARD" paint.
This shows why I don't get too hung up on paint matching--the
prototype didn't---.
I should have added this--"after the cars were placed in service".

Steve, I don't think your conclusion is logical. Nothing I can
see
in the image contradicts the idea that every car was ORIGINALLY
painted
the identical color, but at different times, and has encountered
different kinds and amounts of weathering.
And the glimpse of interior color and weathering variations
is
perhaps more interesting than the OUTSIDES of the cars.
Of course, Schuyler's point is relevant too. Few modelers of
PRR
or any road have model cars with this range of exterior color.
After
all, they "wouldn't look right."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Tony--

Yes, the cars would have been originally painted with identical spec
paint (likely matched from wet paint samples as CN did?). After all,
the P-Company WAS "The Standard Railroad of the World". I can only
agree with your assessment about the factors that produced the
variation in car colour that we see in this photo.

Another factor I'd submit to explain colour variation on cars painted
with paint meeting the railroad's standard--the use of different
formulae and/or raw material for paint by different manufacturers,
including changes made by them over the course of many years. All
the manufacturer would have had to do was match the PRR Standard
(drift card or wet paint sample) at the time of sale of their product
to the PRR. The paints may have weathered differently SUBSEQUENT to
their application. Not to mention quality of preparation for
painting in each car shop ( Altoona vs other PRR shops, for
example?), and condition of the car's steelwork that the paint was
applied to.

CN actually stencilled in the late 1950's, using about 1"
stencilling, some boxcars just above the reporting marks with the
name of the manufacturer of paint used, shop symbol, and date
applied.

And the inside of each hopper car in the Shorpy photo--quite a
variation as well. All of which presents either a challenge, or as I
prefer--a lot of fun with painting and weathering for the modeller.

I have a similar colour photo from the Dave Shaw collection showing
quite a variation of "standard colour" on CN cars at Palmerston, ON,
(that I use when someone questions me about "CN standard paint
colours" on MY models) but this Jack Delano photo is more likely to
be in the public domain. Thanks to the gent that gave us the Shorpy
website reference in the first place. There are a lot of good colour
STMFC (mostly Jack Delano WWII) photos on it.

Steve Lucas.



--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas wrote:
Yet there is quite a variance in car colour, and the PRR would
certianly have painted them all with "PRR STANDARD" paint.
This shows why I don't get too hung up on paint matching--the
prototype didn't---.
I should have added this--"after the cars were placed in service".

Steve, I don't think your conclusion is logical. Nothing I can
see
in the image contradicts the idea that every car was ORIGINALLY
painted
the identical color, but at different times, and has encountered
different kinds and amounts of weathering.
And the glimpse of interior color and weathering variations
is
perhaps more interesting than the OUTSIDES of the cars.
Of course, Schuyler's point is relevant too. Few modelers of
PRR
or any road have model cars with this range of exterior color.
After
all, they "wouldn't look right."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
Remember that it wasn't that many years ago that folks on this list were criticizing the narrow gaugers for their "cliche" of too much weathering.
I don't think it was just "too much weathering," Bruce, but also their tendency to model everything, structures, locomotives and cars, as though it was in a state likely to fall apart the next day. Somehow, the decrepit state of NG railroads when photographed in their very last days (or even after abandonment) became the "standard modeling" method for many NG modelers, even when supposedly depicting earlier periods. The Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette became notorious for glorifying such modeling.
But your main point is important: we should all have a WIDE VARIATION of weathering on our freight cars. I do realize, though, from visiting many, many layouts over the years: most modelers have a certain range of "dirt" they are comfortable with, and so fail to have that WIDE VARIATION we see in many prototype photos.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Bruce Smith
 

Steve Lucas wrote:
Yet there is quite a variance in car colour, and the PRR would
certianly have painted them all with "PRR STANDARD" paint.
This shows why I don't get too hung up on paint matching--the
prototype didn't.
And Tony replied:
Steve, I don't think your conclusion is logical. Nothing I can see
in the image contradicts the idea that every car was ORIGINALLY painted
the identical color, but at different times, and has encountered
different kinds and amounts of weathering.
I agree! The PRR was fairly fastidious about paint color consistency, as were most roads. Those cars were all painted with regulation FCC, and all looked pretty much the same coming out of the paint shop. It is their life experiences that now show as differences in color. My approach to weathering models is to try to mimic this. A car painted gritty grey and then decaled does not look at all the same as a car painted FCC (Freight Car Color -PRR) decaled and then weathered to a gritty grey. Inevitably on the latter there are still spots of FCC hiding in various nooks and cranies that, just like this prototype photo, tell you that the car was originally painted FCC and of course, the effect on the lettering is critical as well.

And the glimpse of interior color and weathering variations is
perhaps more interesting than the OUTSIDES of the cars.
Of course, Schuyler's point is relevant too. Few modelers of PRR
or any road have model cars with this range of exterior color. After
all, they "wouldn't look right."
Remember that it wasn't that many years ago that folks on this list were criticizing the narrow gaugers for their "cliche" of too much weathering. I think in the past few years we've come to realize that, especially during WWII (the photo referenced was 1943), freight cars were in general pretty darn dirty! Of course, the cliche still exists, and portraying the true range of weathering, rather than just one extreme, is one area that will inevitably enhance realism.

Now to go make some PFE Reefers dirty <VBG>
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Steve Lucas wrote:
Yet there is quite a variance in car colour, and the PRR would certianly have painted them all with "PRR STANDARD" paint.
This shows why I don't get too hung up on paint matching--the prototype didn't.
Steve, I don't think your conclusion is logical. Nothing I can see in the image contradicts the idea that every car was ORIGINALLY painted the identical color, but at different times, and has encountered different kinds and amounts of weathering.
And the glimpse of interior color and weathering variations is perhaps more interesting than the OUTSIDES of the cars.
Of course, Schuyler's point is relevant too. Few modelers of PRR or any road have model cars with this range of exterior color. After all, they "wouldn't look right."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Further to your point, Steve, layouts which have all the cars painted the "right color" are
basically not credible, and lack of weathering, even for "new this year" cars isn't realistic.
But, but, Schuyler, all those modelers whose layouts are covered in cars with "brand new" paint can't be wrong, can they? <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Schuyler Larrabee
 

This is NOT to get a colour discussion going. But have a look at this
photo.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original <http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original>

Every car in this photo (from a Kodachrome slide, and Kodachrome being
well-known for its colour stability over time) looks like it belongs to
the PRR, "The Standard Railroad of the World".

Yet there is quite a variance in car colour, and the PRR would
certianly have painted them all with "PRR STANDARD" paint.

This shows why I don't get too hung up on paint matching--the prototype
didn't.

Steve Lucas.
Further to your point, Steve, layouts which have all the cars painted the "right color" are
basically not credible, and lack of weathering, even for "new this year" cars isn't realistic. A
few years ago (um, well. . .~10) I drove past a brand new box car with a "NEW date the same month, a
Pacific NW road's car, so new the paint still smelled of its vehicle. It was spotted at a lumber
yard, and thought "I need to get a picture of that!" So I went back at lunch, and noticed that in
what could not have been more than one trip across the US, it was dusty, spattered with mud, and
since morning, the locals at the yard had used a forklift to open the door, resulting in a six-foot
"scratch" about a quarter-inch deep, which was already showing rust.

SGL


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

This is NOT to get a colour discussion going. But have a look at this
photo.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799?size=_original

Every car in this photo (from a Kodachrome slide, and Kodachrome being
well-known for its colour stability over time) looks like it belongs to
the PRR, "The Standard Railroad of the World".

Yet there is quite a variance in car colour, and the PRR would
certianly have painted them all with "PRR STANDARD" paint.

This shows why I don't get too hung up on paint matching--the prototype
didn't.

Steve Lucas.