COAL TRAFFIC


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

The coal traffic to Canada was largely locomotive coal originating in
PA for the GTR's and later CN locomotive terminals in eastern and
central Ontario, the GTR becoming part of CN in 1923. A fair amount
of commercial coal was shipped as well. Ted Rafuse's book "Coal to
Canada"

http://www.canrailpub.com/coaltocanada.htm

is about the Ontario Car Ferry Company, a joint venture between the
BR&P and the GTR which became a joint B&O/CN venture. They operated
two car ferries between Genesee Dock (near Rochester, NY) and
Cobourg, Ontario from 1907 to 1950. Many BR&P and B&O cars wound up
in Eastern Ontario from the Ontario #1 and Ontario #2 car ferries.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Eric Hansmann" <eric@...> wrote:


Malcolm brings up some interesting information. I grew up in a
neighboring coal field in
Indiana, PA, and discovered the Buffalo Rochester & Pittsburgh
Railroad at an erly age. This
line was originally built by the Rochester & Pittsburgh Coal
Company to move the black diamonds
from the Indiana and Jefferson county coal fields. These are just
west of the Clearfield
district field. The BR&P moved quite a bit of coal north towards
Buffalo, but I think much was
sent to the docks for Canadian export. The BR&P was merged into the
B&O in 1933. That coal
traffic continued into the B&O years, but I do not know when it
tapered off after the steam
era. So while the coal from the B&O may not have been delivered to
the Buffalo mills with
frequency, it was a part of the coal traffic moving through that
city.
.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Here's some info gleaned from a C&I historical site . . .

“During the 1930's and 1940's, the C&I had the largest inventory of
rolling stock in the western hemisphere, primarily because of its many
hopper cars.”
Hello? What were they thinking? Maybe cars per mile? Otherwise
it's astoundingly exaggerated.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

As an addenum to Malcolm's NYC details, the Cambria & Indiana connected with the NYC (at Manver or Mentcle, PA, I think). Coal from mines served by the C&I in central Cambria county may have gone north over the NYC in C&I hoppers.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.
=========

I'm glad you mentioned that Eric. Brings back interesting memories from a trip I made to the area in 1966 to count hopper cars to verify our car inventory control system. Here's some info gleaned from a C&I historical site.

The C&I didn’t connect directly with the NYC. It connected with the Cherry Tree & Dixonville at Manver. The CT&D was jointly operated by NYC and PRR, connecting with both at Cherry Tree.

Bethelehem Steel controlled the C&I from 1950. Here’s an interesting relevant note from a C&I history site “By 1962, there were only four mines left on the line …… Bethlehem opened Mine 33 near Ebensburg in 1963 and Barnes & Tucker opened a large mine at Stiles in 1965. ……By then, most freight left the C&I at either Nanty Glo or Ebensburg. Coal bound for Bethlehem Steel's Buffalo and Bethlehem plants left the line at Manver and a unit coal train from Stiles bound for Pennsylvania Power and Light (PP&L) left the C&I via the Rexis Branch.”

“During the 1930's and 1940's, the C&I had the largest inventory of rolling stock in the western hemisphere, primarily because of its many hopper cars.”

I don’t recall seeing many C&I hoppers on the NYC in the 60’s. I suspect that is because most of the C&I coal went to Beth’s blast furnaces at Johnston, Steelton and Baltimore. Clearfield coal would likely have been a lot cheaper to use at Buffalo, bring a single line haul with less distance.

For more, see http://www.trainweb.org/cambriaindiana/history.htm



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Eric Hansmann
 

Malcolm Laughlin sent:

NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY) Coal for the steel mills of Buffalo
out of coal county(WvA/Va/ Ohio/Ky)would have moved in whose coal cars other then PRR
============

PRR was not at all dominant in Buffalo. The largest line connecting the bituminous coal
fields with Buffalo was the NYC. It was a secondary main line point for PRR, ERIE and B&O.
Although also served by coal roads LV and DL&W, they did not handle much, if any, bituminous.

The nearest large coal area to Buffalo was the Clearfield district. It was served primarily
by NYC and PRR. ERIE and B&O also had a few lines in that area and served mines further west
in PA.

=========================================


Malcolm brings up some interesting information. I grew up in a neighboring coal field in
Indiana, PA, and discovered the Buffalo Rochester & Pittsburgh Railroad at an erly age. This
line was originally built by the Rochester & Pittsburgh Coal Company to move the black diamonds
from the Indiana and Jefferson county coal fields. These are just west of the Clearfield
district field. The BR&P moved quite a bit of coal north towards Buffalo, but I think much was
sent to the docks for Canadian export. The BR&P was merged into the B&O in 1933. That coal
traffic continued into the B&O years, but I do not know when it tapered off after the steam
era. So while the coal from the B&O may not have been delivered to the Buffalo mills with
frequency, it was a part of the coal traffic moving through that city.

As an addenum to Malcolm's NYC details, the Cambria & Indiana connected with the NYC (at Manver
or Mentcle, PA, I think). Coal from mines served by the C&I in central Cambria county may have
gone north over the NYC in C&I hoppers.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


NicholasF
 

Dear Joel,

This may be a document you'll find useful. It is available from the
B&O Railroad Historical Society company store at http://www.borhs.org:

Item # 72055: B&O Officers Inspection Trains. Buffalo Division. Approx
162 pages of very detailed data prepared for B&O officers inpsection
trip of the B&O for trips in 1953, 1954 and 1955. Employee statistics
and safety data. Page of fuel usage on Buffalo Div on given dates.
List of cities served, population and revenue per city. Season
tonnages for 8 years running at Charlotte and DL&W docks.
Income/Expense statement for Charlotte Dock Company for 1950-51-52.
Comparison of B&O tonnages on Lake Ontario vs PRR, NYC and DL&W docks.
Details of lease agreements for facilities. List of mines and
carloadings of coal & coke. Coal tonnages billed at Cloe scales for 7
years, by month. Dates of miner's strikes and vacation outages for
1946-52. Special moves of coal and coke on Indiana Sub with PRR.
Motive power forces by location. Quantities of freight cars held for
heavy or reconditioning at 4 locations on Buffalo Div. Description of
the line with details of construction, ties, rail, switches,
facilities, equipment. List of improvements with AFE numbers; costs,
number of new crossties and tons on new rail laid; track workforce
listing. of engines assigned, by class, steam & diesel, for Buffalo
Div. Tonnage ratings by engine type, to include tonnage adjustments in
tons per car depending on air temperatures. List of engine numbers
assigned by location for freight & passenger. These types of data are
represented for the various trip dates, enabling the reader to see
changes on the Buffalo Division during these years.

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society
http://www.borhs.org

--- In STMFC@..., "joel norman" <mec-bml@...> wrote:

GENTLEMAN:
NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY)Coal for
the steel mills of Buffalo out of coal county(WvA/Va/Ohio/Ky)would have
moved in whose coal cars other then PRR?and who offers these cars in HO?
Im sorry to the owner of the sight if this isnt the right group for the
question,please if let me know and I will direct it to the proper
sight.Not looking for traffic data as much as which railroad hopper to
model within the era Ive listed(51-56)...
Thanks
Joel Norman Atlantic & Lake Ontario Rly(dba-Eastern Maine Rly
Brooklyn Terminal Rly)


Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

GENTLEMAN:
NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY) Coal for
the steel mills of Buffalo out of coal county(WvA/Va/ Ohio/Ky)would have
moved in whose coal cars other then PRR
============

PRR was not at all dominant in Buffalo. The largest line connecting the bituminous coal fields with Buffalo was the NYC. It was a secondary main line point for PRR, ERIE and B&O. Although also served by coal roads LV and DL&W, they did not handle much, if any, bituminous.

The nearest large coal area to Buffalo was the Clearfield district. It was served primarily by NYC and PRR. ERIE and B&O also had a few lines in that area and served mines further west in PA.

NYC might also have handled P&LE coal from the Monongahela River area, but that's rather a long haul and it wouldn't make much sense cost wise to send coal from there to Buffalo when that area is so close to the Pittsburgh and Youngstown mills and Clearfield is much closer to Buffalo. It would be interesting to know if there was a significan volume from the P&LE to Buffalo.

Now to get to the marks of cars. IT depends to a great extent on the origin road. From NYC origins it would be mostly NYC (my guess 70 to 90 %) with s fair number of PRR cars (guess 10 to 20 %), lesser number of B&O and ERIE and random cars from any other NE road. From PRR origins, roughly same picture substituting NYC and PRR marks. I've no idea what the ERIE and B&O car supply situation was like. From P&LE mines it would have been almost all P&LE cars. P&LE was one of the very few railroads in the northeast that was wealthy enough to own enough cars to load mostly its own.










Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


rwitt_2000
 

Bruce Smith replied:


On Aug 4, 2008, at 11:16 AM, joel norman asked:

GENTLEMAN:
NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY)Coal
for
the steel mills of Buffalo out of coal county(WvA/Va/Ohio/Ky)would
have
moved in whose coal cars other then PRR?and who offers these cars
in HO?
Im sorry to the owner of the sight if this isnt the right group for
the
question,please if let me know and I will direct it to the proper
sight.Not looking for traffic data as much as which railroad hopper
to
model within the era Ive listed(51-56)...
Joel,

It might be easier to list the ones you would not be likely to see...
For example, western roads like UP, AT&SF, CB&Q would be unlikely. PA
roads like P&LE would be fairly common. I also see a fair number of
B&O and Reading hoppers, but very few N&W and C&O. The "Bob Charles"
collection had a CofG hopper in Harrisburg, along with at least 15
other foreign roads. There are also some great yard shots in books by
Don Ball and others - look and see what it there.

As for models, the archives of this list, plus a membership to the
RPI website (at $5/month) are invaluable tools to determine
appropriate models. When focusing on particular roads, you can find
fleet type articles, such as Ben Hom's series on B&O hoppers in the
B&O Modeler.
But the traffic data determines how the coal got to Buffalo. The steel
mill requires a certain type of coal, a limited number of mines may be
able to provide it and that determines originating railroads for that
coal. Traffic patterns and interchange locations determine the usual
route for the coal to travel from the mine to the mill.

For modeling PRR hoppers don't forget "PennsylvaniaRailroad Steel Open
Hopper Cars" by John Teichmoeller. It is out-of-print, but it is still
available from used book dealers.

Bob Witt


Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 4, 2008, at 11:16 AM, joel norman wrote:

GENTLEMAN:
NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY)Coal for
the steel mills of Buffalo out of coal county(WvA/Va/Ohio/Ky)would have
moved in whose coal cars other then PRR?and who offers these cars in HO?
Im sorry to the owner of the sight if this isnt the right group for the
question,please if let me know and I will direct it to the proper
sight.Not looking for traffic data as much as which railroad hopper to
model within the era Ive listed(51-56)...
Joel,

It might be easier to list the ones you would not be likely to see...
For example, western roads like UP, AT&SF, CB&Q would be unlikely. PA
roads like P&LE would be fairly common. I also see a fair number of
B&O and Reading hoppers, but very few N&W and C&O. The "Bob Charles"
collection had a CofG hopper in Harrisburg, along with at least 15
other foreign roads. There are also some great yard shots in books by
Don Ball and others - look and see what it there.

As for models, the archives of this list, plus a membership to the RPI website (at $5/month) are invaluable tools to determine appropriate models. When focusing on particular roads, you can find fleet type articles, such as Ben Hom's series on B&O hoppers in the B&O Modeler.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


joel norman <mec-bml@...>
 

GENTLEMAN:
NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY)Coal for
the steel mills of Buffalo out of coal county(WvA/Va/Ohio/Ky)would have
moved in whose coal cars other then PRR?and who offers these cars in HO?
Im sorry to the owner of the sight if this isnt the right group for the
question,please if let me know and I will direct it to the proper
sight.Not looking for traffic data as much as which railroad hopper to
model within the era Ive listed(51-56)...
Thanks
Joel Norman Atlantic & Lake Ontario Rly(dba-Eastern Maine Rly
Brooklyn Terminal Rly)