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COAL TRAFFIC
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Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
The coal traffic to Canada was largely locomotive coal originating in
PA for the GTR's and later CN locomotive terminals in eastern and central Ontario, the GTR becoming part of CN in 1923. A fair amount of commercial coal was shipped as well. Ted Rafuse's book "Coal to Canada" http://www.canrailpub.com/coaltocanada.htm is about the Ontario Car Ferry Company, a joint venture between the BR&P and the GTR which became a joint B&O/CN venture. They operated two car ferries between Genesee Dock (near Rochester, NY) and Cobourg, Ontario from 1907 to 1950. Many BR&P and B&O cars wound up in Eastern Ontario from the Ontario #1 and Ontario #2 car ferries. Steve Lucas. --- In STMFC@..., "Eric Hansmann" <eric@...> wrote: Malcolm brings up some interesting information. I grew up in aneighboring coal field in Indiana, PA, and discovered the Buffalo Rochester & PittsburghRailroad at an erly age. This line was originally built by the Rochester & Pittsburgh CoalCompany to move the black diamonds from the Indiana and Jefferson county coal fields. These are justwest of the Clearfield district field. The BR&P moved quite a bit of coal north towardsBuffalo, but I think much was sent to the docks for Canadian export. The BR&P was merged into theB&O in 1933. That coal traffic continued into the B&O years, but I do not know when ittapered off after the steam era. So while the coal from the B&O may not have been delivered tothe Buffalo mills with frequency, it was a part of the coal traffic moving through thatcity. .
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Here's some info gleaned from a C&I historical site . . .Hello? What were they thinking? Maybe cars per mile? Otherwise it's astoundingly exaggerated. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
As an addenum to Malcolm's NYC details, the Cambria & Indiana connected with the NYC (at Manver or Mentcle, PA, I think). Coal from mines served by the C&I in central Cambria county may have gone north over the NYC in C&I hoppers.
Eric Hansmann Morgantown, W. Va. ========= I'm glad you mentioned that Eric. Brings back interesting memories from a trip I made to the area in 1966 to count hopper cars to verify our car inventory control system. Here's some info gleaned from a C&I historical site. The C&I didn’t connect directly with the NYC. It connected with the Cherry Tree & Dixonville at Manver. The CT&D was jointly operated by NYC and PRR, connecting with both at Cherry Tree. Bethelehem Steel controlled the C&I from 1950. Here’s an interesting relevant note from a C&I history site “By 1962, there were only four mines left on the line …… Bethlehem opened Mine 33 near Ebensburg in 1963 and Barnes & Tucker opened a large mine at Stiles in 1965. ……By then, most freight left the C&I at either Nanty Glo or Ebensburg. Coal bound for Bethlehem Steel's Buffalo and Bethlehem plants left the line at Manver and a unit coal train from Stiles bound for Pennsylvania Power and Light (PP&L) left the C&I via the Rexis Branch.” “During the 1930's and 1940's, the C&I had the largest inventory of rolling stock in the western hemisphere, primarily because of its many hopper cars.” I don’t recall seeing many C&I hoppers on the NYC in the 60’s. I suspect that is because most of the C&I coal went to Beth’s blast furnaces at Johnston, Steelton and Baltimore. Clearfield coal would likely have been a lot cheaper to use at Buffalo, bring a single line haul with less distance. For more, see http://www.trainweb.org/cambriaindiana/history.htm Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383 New England Rail Shipper Directories 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478
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Eric Hansmann
Malcolm Laughlin sent:
NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY) Coal for the steel mills of Buffalo out of coal county(WvA/Va/ Ohio/Ky)would have moved in whose coal cars other then PRR ============ PRR was not at all dominant in Buffalo. The largest line connecting the bituminous coal fields with Buffalo was the NYC. It was a secondary main line point for PRR, ERIE and B&O. Although also served by coal roads LV and DL&W, they did not handle much, if any, bituminous. The nearest large coal area to Buffalo was the Clearfield district. It was served primarily by NYC and PRR. ERIE and B&O also had a few lines in that area and served mines further west in PA. ========================================= Malcolm brings up some interesting information. I grew up in a neighboring coal field in Indiana, PA, and discovered the Buffalo Rochester & Pittsburgh Railroad at an erly age. This line was originally built by the Rochester & Pittsburgh Coal Company to move the black diamonds from the Indiana and Jefferson county coal fields. These are just west of the Clearfield district field. The BR&P moved quite a bit of coal north towards Buffalo, but I think much was sent to the docks for Canadian export. The BR&P was merged into the B&O in 1933. That coal traffic continued into the B&O years, but I do not know when it tapered off after the steam era. So while the coal from the B&O may not have been delivered to the Buffalo mills with frequency, it was a part of the coal traffic moving through that city. As an addenum to Malcolm's NYC details, the Cambria & Indiana connected with the NYC (at Manver or Mentcle, PA, I think). Coal from mines served by the C&I in central Cambria county may have gone north over the NYC in C&I hoppers. Eric Hansmann Morgantown, W. Va.
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NicholasF
Dear Joel,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
This may be a document you'll find useful. It is available from the B&O Railroad Historical Society company store at http://www.borhs.org: Item # 72055: B&O Officers Inspection Trains. Buffalo Division. Approx 162 pages of very detailed data prepared for B&O officers inpsection trip of the B&O for trips in 1953, 1954 and 1955. Employee statistics and safety data. Page of fuel usage on Buffalo Div on given dates. List of cities served, population and revenue per city. Season tonnages for 8 years running at Charlotte and DL&W docks. Income/Expense statement for Charlotte Dock Company for 1950-51-52. Comparison of B&O tonnages on Lake Ontario vs PRR, NYC and DL&W docks. Details of lease agreements for facilities. List of mines and carloadings of coal & coke. Coal tonnages billed at Cloe scales for 7 years, by month. Dates of miner's strikes and vacation outages for 1946-52. Special moves of coal and coke on Indiana Sub with PRR. Motive power forces by location. Quantities of freight cars held for heavy or reconditioning at 4 locations on Buffalo Div. Description of the line with details of construction, ties, rail, switches, facilities, equipment. List of improvements with AFE numbers; costs, number of new crossties and tons on new rail laid; track workforce listing. of engines assigned, by class, steam & diesel, for Buffalo Div. Tonnage ratings by engine type, to include tonnage adjustments in tons per car depending on air temperatures. List of engine numbers assigned by location for freight & passenger. These types of data are represented for the various trip dates, enabling the reader to see changes on the Buffalo Division during these years. Take Care -Nick Fry Archivist Director at Large B&O Railroad Historical Society http://www.borhs.org
--- In STMFC@..., "joel norman" <mec-bml@...> wrote:
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Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
GENTLEMAN:
NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY) Coal for the steel mills of Buffalo out of coal county(WvA/Va/ Ohio/Ky)would have moved in whose coal cars other then PRR ============ PRR was not at all dominant in Buffalo. The largest line connecting the bituminous coal fields with Buffalo was the NYC. It was a secondary main line point for PRR, ERIE and B&O. Although also served by coal roads LV and DL&W, they did not handle much, if any, bituminous. The nearest large coal area to Buffalo was the Clearfield district. It was served primarily by NYC and PRR. ERIE and B&O also had a few lines in that area and served mines further west in PA. NYC might also have handled P&LE coal from the Monongahela River area, but that's rather a long haul and it wouldn't make much sense cost wise to send coal from there to Buffalo when that area is so close to the Pittsburgh and Youngstown mills and Clearfield is much closer to Buffalo. It would be interesting to know if there was a significan volume from the P&LE to Buffalo. Now to get to the marks of cars. IT depends to a great extent on the origin road. From NYC origins it would be mostly NYC (my guess 70 to 90 %) with s fair number of PRR cars (guess 10 to 20 %), lesser number of B&O and ERIE and random cars from any other NE road. From PRR origins, roughly same picture substituting NYC and PRR marks. I've no idea what the ERIE and B&O car supply situation was like. From P&LE mines it would have been almost all P&LE cars. P&LE was one of the very few railroads in the northeast that was wealthy enough to own enough cars to load mostly its own. Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383 New England Rail Shipper Directories 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478
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rwitt_2000
Bruce Smith replied:
to But the traffic data determines how the coal got to Buffalo. The steelmodel within the era Ive listed(51-56)...Joel, mill requires a certain type of coal, a limited number of mines may be able to provide it and that determines originating railroads for that coal. Traffic patterns and interchange locations determine the usual route for the coal to travel from the mine to the mill. For modeling PRR hoppers don't forget "PennsylvaniaRailroad Steel Open Hopper Cars" by John Teichmoeller. It is out-of-print, but it is still available from used book dealers. Bob Witt
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On Aug 4, 2008, at 11:16 AM, joel norman wrote:
GENTLEMAN:Joel, It might be easier to list the ones you would not be likely to see... For example, western roads like UP, AT&SF, CB&Q would be unlikely. PA roads like P&LE would be fairly common. I also see a fair number of B&O and Reading hoppers, but very few N&W and C&O. The "Bob Charles" collection had a CofG hopper in Harrisburg, along with at least 15 other foreign roads. There are also some great yard shots in books by Don Ball and others - look and see what it there. As for models, the archives of this list, plus a membership to the RPI website (at $5/month) are invaluable tools to determine appropriate models. When focusing on particular roads, you can find fleet type articles, such as Ben Hom's series on B&O hoppers in the B&O Modeler. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2 "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0
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joel norman <mec-bml@...>
GENTLEMAN:
NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY)Coal for the steel mills of Buffalo out of coal county(WvA/Va/Ohio/Ky)would have moved in whose coal cars other then PRR?and who offers these cars in HO? Im sorry to the owner of the sight if this isnt the right group for the question,please if let me know and I will direct it to the proper sight.Not looking for traffic data as much as which railroad hopper to model within the era Ive listed(51-56)... Thanks Joel Norman Atlantic & Lake Ontario Rly(dba-Eastern Maine Rly Brooklyn Terminal Rly)
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