Canadian Empties


John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

we have been told by
several people on this list in the past, that Canadian cars could only
move in the U.S. to destinations to unload, then return empty




Following is from the "American Association of Railroad
Superintendents, Proceedings of the Fifty-Eighth Annual Meeting and
Committee Reports, 1954" during a discussion regarding efficient
handling of freight cars.

Among those in attendance at the Pacific Coast Post-Convention Meeting
were C. H. Grant, general superintendent of transportation, SP,; L.P.
Hopkins, superintendent, SP; R.N. Whitman, superintendent, GN.

Part of their discussion is as follows:


MR. GRANT: We have, as I have stated before, very plain and frank
directives from the AAR and also from the Canadian roads. It's a
year-round order, I think, that we have to return Canadian cars, and
we really catch it when we don't return Canadian cars empty unless we
have loading for them on Canadian line. Of course, Mr. Hopkins'
glasses get fogged up (laughter) or he gets these things mixed up on
the switch list and they load three of four now and then, but that's
just a mistake. In further amplifying that, in the case of a shortage
of cars in the States, frequently Mr. Gass, the AAR officer who puts
out these car directives, will permit us to load Canadian cars. But
it's usually for a very short duration, when they're not short of cars
in Canada.

MEMBER: In certain territories.

MR. GRANT: In certain territories, yes.

MR. HOPKINS: As far as Canadian cars are concerned, we follow Rule 2
very closely. There may be a slip-up now and then, but on the
over-all we either get them back empty or we get them loaded in the
direction that is covered by Rule 2.



John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

John--

What's illustrative about this interview with Mr. Grant is how he
addressed the issue of intra-US use of Canadian cars. "Nudge, nudge,
wink, wink" is what I am reading in his remarks. They seem to
support my assertion that Canadian cars were known to "disappear" in
the US, customs reg's. or not.

In all fairness, the more we discuss this, the more we are seeing
that using other roads' cars for loading other than in the direction
of the home road must have been a very common practice in the era of
STMFC. Why else would the Pennsy have been regarded as supplying
cars to the entire US at times?

Steve Lucas.



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@> wrote:

we have been told by
several people on this list in the past, that Canadian cars could
only
move in the U.S. to destinations to unload, then return empty




Following is from the "American Association of Railroad
Superintendents, Proceedings of the Fifty-Eighth Annual Meeting and
Committee Reports, 1954" during a discussion regarding efficient
handling of freight cars.

Among those in attendance at the Pacific Coast Post-Convention
Meeting
were C. H. Grant, general superintendent of transportation, SP,;
L.P.
Hopkins, superintendent, SP; R.N. Whitman, superintendent, GN.

Part of their discussion is as follows:


MR. GRANT: We have, as I have stated before, very plain and frank
directives from the AAR and also from the Canadian roads. It's a
year-round order, I think, that we have to return Canadian cars, and
we really catch it when we don't return Canadian cars empty unless
we
have loading for them on Canadian line. Of course, Mr. Hopkins'
glasses get fogged up (laughter) or he gets these things mixed up on
the switch list and they load three of four now and then, but that's
just a mistake. In further amplifying that, in the case of a
shortage
of cars in the States, frequently Mr. Gass, the AAR officer who puts
out these car directives, will permit us to load Canadian cars. But
it's usually for a very short duration, when they're not short of
cars
in Canada.

MEMBER: In certain territories.

MR. GRANT: In certain territories, yes.

MR. HOPKINS: As far as Canadian cars are concerned, we follow Rule
2
very closely. There may be a slip-up now and then, but on the
over-all we either get them back empty or we get them loaded in the
direction that is covered by Rule 2.



John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Steve Lucas wrote:
What's illustrative about this interview with Mr. Grant is how he addressed the issue of intra-US use of Canadian cars. "Nudge, nudge, wink, wink" is what I am reading in his remarks. They seem to support my assertion that Canadian cars were known to "disappear" in the US, customs reg's. or not.
Quite true, Steve, but note that there is also an awareness that the rules can be applied and someone may notice. I doubt that was true for U.S. cars violating Rule 2. Canadian cars may well have been "confiscated" (as the term was) more than was legal, but I feel confident it was nothing like the situation for U.S. cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Quite true, Steve, but note that there is also an awareness that the rules can be applied and someone may notice. I doubt that was true for U.S. cars violating Rule 2. Canadian cars may well have been "confiscated" (as the term was) more than was legal, but I feel confident it was nothing like the situation for U.S. cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
----------------------

Taking the opposite side from my earlier Yakima example, on the NYC in the 60's loading Canadian cars other than to or via Canada was definitely a don't do.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Taking the opposite side from my earlier Yakima example, on the NYC in the 60's loading Canadian cars other than to or via Canada was definitely a don't do.
That's what an SP employee from the 1960s told me: the Canadian meat reefers and paper box cars made empty in Los Angeles were DEFINITELY returned directly to Canada, almost always empty.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


john riddell <jriddell@...>
 

Possibly the best example of Canadian empties not being returned after being unloaded in the US was the cars of the Temiskaming & Northern Ontario Railway (reporting marks TEM). The 566-mile road had some 220 box cars in 1942. It often exported newsprint to US customers in its boxcars. Due to its initials T&NO its unloaded cars in the US were frequently confused with Texas & New Orleans and sent empty to Fort Worth. Its cars were often not returned home for a long time. TEM complained frequently from 1910 on to not confuse its cars with the US road, with limited success. After complaining for some 25 years, in 1946 the road took the extreme step of changing its name to Ontario Northland Railway (reporting marks ONT), at least partially to solve this persistant problem.

John Riddell