--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

I don't recall Tim ever mentioning why he was interested in the

topic but I

do recall why I was: I had changed scale and as that fact had put me

in the

market for new rolling stock I wanted some guidelines that would

serve me

when making purchases.

As to why the topic returns to this list with some regularity I can only
hazzard a guess: other people are in the same boat today as I was then.

VMMV.

Dave,

That is precisely my situation. For me, filling in the large quantity
of WWII era NYC and B&O box cars that the national percentage theory
would require is not an insignificant effort. I'd hate to expend
effort on cars that would be over-represented when the fleet is
complete. Modeling the PRR I'm really lucky because of the Red Caboose
X29's, while building a bunch of X25's looks like a serious
undertaking. But if on any given day, the deviation from averages is
significant, then more latitude is possible, although that day may
make my layout look like it is from the movie groundhog day...

Clearly the trains you want to run can lead to big deviations that
should be ok - I hope to include a WWII tank car train - which means I
will have tank cars way out of proportion to an expected fleet. And
since the PRR pushed 800 loaded tanks over Gallitizin every day (and
800 empties the other way), I expect that train can be legitimately
operated more than once a session. The tougher issue is the mix of
tank car types when trying to build a full train. That seems to be a
big challenge because I haven't seen a lot of data on the precentages
of tank car types during that era. Unless there is a neat message out
there in the archive - time to experiment with the search engine again.

Dave Evans

Dave E and all. The national averages had been shown by Tim and Dave Nelson
to apply to boxcars and to a lesser extent flats. They shouldn't be applied
to gons, hoppers, tank cars, vinegar cars, etc. They also applied up to the
mid-late 1950's. Why? Well in the mid to late 50's you started to see more
specialty equipped cars that were assigned to specific industry's, and
industry pools.

As for the number of B&O boxcars I am afraid you will need to bite the
bullet. The M26 and subclasses (including M-27, M-27A) approached 16,000
copies. Add in the M-15 with 12,000(not sure how many were left unconverted
by the war though), and the roundroof cars (M-13, M-15 various subclasses,
M-53) there is quite a fleet. B&O cars appear in the background of many PRR
yard shots and freights. M-26B's are easy from Red Caboose, M-26D/E can be
modeled from Speedwitch, Westerfield has M-15's and Sunshine has M-27's so
modeling B&O isn't that hard.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Also for B&O Funaro & Camerlingo has nice one Piece Body Models of M15K Boxcar, M15L/M Automobile Car, M50 Boxcar, and M53 Boxcars, these are all Wagontops.
Also they have One Piece Wagontop Covered Hoppers with both Small and Large Lettering.
If you call your order into F&C, you also get Buy 1 get 1 free.

Ron Smith
Carman UPRR

On Thu, August 14, 2008 5:24 pm, devansprr wrote:

Clearly the trains you want to run can lead to big deviations that
should be ok - I hope to include a WWII tank car train - which means I
will have tank cars way out of proportion to an expected fleet. And
since the PRR pushed 800 loaded tanks over Gallitizin every day (and
800 empties the other way), I expect that train can be legitimately
operated more than once a session. The tougher issue is the mix of
tank car types when trying to build a full train. That seems to be a
big challenge because I haven't seen a lot of data on the precentages
of tank car types during that era.

Dave,

Tank cars on the PRR during WWII are not a "deviation", they simply are
not part of the national fleet model for boxcars. They have their own
model. The data on the fleet has been provided in the archives, but if
you can't find it I'll try to remember to send it to you off-list. As for
tank cars being over-represented, that's only if you consider the national
fleet to be evenly distributed. That would be true for boxcars and mostly
true for flats and reefers, but not at all true for tank cars. As I
alluded to in an earlier message a large portion of the national fleet of
tank cars was concentrated in a series of linear routes between the gulf
coast oil fields and the north eastern refineries, and once the big inch
pipeline was finished, between the end of the pipeline and the refineries.
So for us lucky PRR modelers, we get to model a great percentage of the
national fleet as it traversed Pennsy rails, but someone modeling, say the
ATSF, would see very few of those cars. So in this particular case, both
time and location are absolutely critical!

Speaking of which - when are we gonna see those STC radial course tank
cars? <G>

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Thu, August 14, 2008 6:27 pm, Brian J Carlson wrote:

As for the number of B&O boxcars I am afraid you will need to bite the
bullet. The M26 and subclasses (including M-27, M-27A) approached 16,000
copies. Add in the M-15 with 12,000(not sure how many were left
unconverted by the war though), and the roundroof cars (M-13, M-15

various subclasses,

M-53) there is quite a fleet. B&O cars appear in the background of many
PRR yard shots and freights. M-26B's are easy from Red Caboose, M-26D/E

can be

modeled from Speedwitch, Westerfield has M-15's and Sunshine has M-27's so
modeling B&O isn't that hard.

Brian, Dave, Folks,

So, here's a philosophical question... For my foreign boxcar fleet, I
need roughly 5 B&O boxcars based on the national fleet. So what cars?
Well the WWII fleet consisted of the M15, M26 and rebuilt M15 and M53
wagontops. The knee jerk response of many modelers might be to use the
iconic wagontops. After all, you can identify them as B&O without even
reading the reporting marks! But I can't resist the temptation to educate
and the wagontops turn out to be a cliche. Their combined made up just
over 10% (or 1 in 10) of the B&Os boxcar fleet... in reality I don't need
ANY! The M15 was about 25% of the fleet and the M26 was about 50% of the
fleet. So, the ICONIC B&O boxcar is the M26. Lets add to that while the
B&O was known for the Duryea underframe, only about 1/3 of the M26 cars
have this u/f.

OK, so back to the 5 cars I need for B&O. Seems like the M26A and M26D I
built for Virtual Modelers will work, plus maybe another M26 or M26A might
be good. Likewise, a Westerfield M15 would be a good idea. That leaves
one or two slots left, depending on how many M26s I have. So, I broke
down and filled that spot with an M53, after all, it is an icon <G>.
However, due to the size of my fleet that car will not appear every ops
session, but several B&O cars will. What that means is that operators
will get the CORRECT impression that B&O cars were relatively common, but
that wagontops were not. Below are the fleet numbers I worked with for
B&O boxcars

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

M15D 1213 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15H 1165 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15J 2164 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15F 2355 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
Total M15 -6897

M26* 1971 like PRR X29
M26A* 3460 like PRR X29 � RC #7003 undec
M26B* 989 like PRR X29
M26C* 991 like PRR X29
M26D* 5443 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe � Speedwitch
M26E* 986 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe � Speedwitch
total M26 - 13840

M15K 1227 wagon top rebuild
M53* 1886 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit, F&C kit
M53A* 997 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit
Total wagon tops - 2883

M55A 900 built 1941: 10'-0" IH, Murphy panel roof

Total B&O boxcars 25747

Bruce,

One caution. For those Pro-Custom/F&C wagontops. Suggest you either
use the Sunshine decals or piece together as much as possible of the
lettering from the Speedwitch M-26 decals. The decals in the Pro
Custom kits are crude, to put it kindly.

John King

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Thu, August 14, 2008 6:27 pm, Brian J Carlson wrote:

As for the number of B&O boxcars I am afraid you will need to

bite the

bullet. The M26 and subclasses (including M-27, M-27A) approached

16,000

copies. Add in the M-15 with 12,000(not sure how many were left
unconverted by the war though), and the roundroof cars (M-13, M-

15

various subclasses,

M-53) there is quite a fleet. B&O cars appear in the background

of many

PRR yard shots and freights. M-26B's are easy from Red Caboose,

M-26D/E

can be

modeled from Speedwitch, Westerfield has M-15's and Sunshine has

M-27's so

modeling B&O isn't that hard.

Brian, Dave, Folks,

So, here's a philosophical question... For my foreign boxcar

fleet, I

need roughly 5 B&O boxcars based on the national fleet. So what

cars?

Well the WWII fleet consisted of the M15, M26 and rebuilt M15 and

M53

wagontops. The knee jerk response of many modelers might be to use

the

iconic wagontops. After all, you can identify them as B&O without

even

reading the reporting marks! But I can't resist the temptation to

educate

and the wagontops turn out to be a cliche. Their combined made up

just

over 10% (or 1 in 10) of the B&Os boxcar fleet... in reality I

don't need

ANY! The M15 was about 25% of the fleet and the M26 was about 50%

of the

fleet. So, the ICONIC B&O boxcar is the M26. Lets add to that

while the

B&O was known for the Duryea underframe, only about 1/3 of the M26

cars

have this u/f.

OK, so back to the 5 cars I need for B&O. Seems like the M26A and

M26D I

built for Virtual Modelers will work, plus maybe another M26 or

M26A might

be good. Likewise, a Westerfield M15 would be a good idea. That

leaves

one or two slots left, depending on how many M26s I have. So, I

broke

down and filled that spot with an M53, after all, it is an icon

<G>.

However, due to the size of my fleet that car will not appear every

ops

session, but several B&O cars will. What that means is that

operators

will get the CORRECT impression that B&O cars were relatively

common, but

that wagontops were not. Below are the fleet numbers I worked with

for

B&O boxcars

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

M15D 1213 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15H 1165 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15J 2164 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15F 2355 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
Total M15 -6897

M26* 1971 like PRR X29
M26A* 3460 like PRR X29 – RC #7003 undec
M26B* 989 like PRR X29
M26C* 991 like PRR X29
M26D* 5443 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe – Speedwitch
M26E* 986 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe –

Speedwitch

total M26 - 13840

M15K 1227 wagon top rebuild
M53* 1886 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit, F&C kit
M53A* 997 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit
Total wagon tops - 2883

M55A 900 built 1941: 10'-0" IH, Murphy panel roof

Total B&O boxcars 25747

Bruce Smith writes:

"So for us lucky PRR modelers, we get to model a great percentage of the
national fleet as it traversed Pennsy rails, but someone modeling, say the
ATSF, would see very few of those cars. So in this particular case, both
time and location are absolutely critical!"

The same apparently for Mopac [ or was it Frisco? ] and B&O...if the photos are any indication.

"Speaking of which - when are we gonna see those STC radial course tank
cars? <G>"

I expect to receive one any day now.

Mike Brock

Bruce Smith writes:

"As I
alluded to in an earlier message a large portion of the national fleet of
tank cars was concentrated in a series of linear routes between the gulf
coast oil fields and the north eastern refineries, and once the big inch
pipeline was finished, between the end of the pipeline and the refineries.
So for us lucky PRR modelers, we get to model a great percentage of the
national fleet as it traversed Pennsy rails, but someone modeling, say the
ATSF, would see very few of those cars. So in this particular case, both
time and location are absolutely critical!"

Hmmm. I'm not so sure of that. Checking, I note that the train of tank cars [ MT's ] I referred to was on the Frisco, at Sullivan between St. Louis and Spingfield running to Oklahoma during WW2. Santa Fe might actually also been the recipient of such traffic going from Texas and Oklahoma into Kansas City.

Incidentally, I note that two of the 35 trains in my frt conductor's book contain a few Sinclair tank cars. One with 59 [ 63% ] and one with 52 [ 42% ]. Based on max train lengths of 35 cars, that means I will need 22 SDRX tank cars. I have [ gasp ] 5.
Something tells me...

Mike Brock

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Tank cars on the PRR during WWII are not a "deviation", they simply are
not part of the national fleet model for boxcars. They have their own
model. The data on the fleet has been provided in the archives, but if
you can't find it I'll try to remember to send it to you off-list.

As for

tank cars being over-represented, that's only if you consider the

national

fleet to be evenly distributed. That would be true for boxcars and

mostly

true for flats and reefers, but not at all true for tank cars.

Bruce - sorry I mis-wrote - deviation was the wrong word - just
pointing out that I will have a layout with an unusually large tank
car fleet relative to other car types.

I have been analyizing the '43 ORER and creating an excel file with
worksheets for each car type, and then totals for each reporting mark
by general characteristics for each car type (e.g. 36/40/50 foot box
cars, steel vs wood sheathed, etc.) For tanks I'm characterizing by
gallons - under 8k, 8k (plain and insulated), 10k (plain and
insulated), and oddities (over 10k or multi-domes), gons by length,
and hoppers by tons and bottom type. Still a work in progress. Haven't
tackled flats, stock and reefers yet.

But I do not have good info on details such as tank car manufacturer
type (e.g. 11, 21, 27, etc). If that exists let me know and I'll
search for it - there is a wealth of data in this site - it could use
a full word index system for quicker and more accurate searches.

As I
alluded to in an earlier message a large portion of the national

fleet of

tank cars was concentrated in a series of linear routes between the gulf
coast oil fields and the north eastern refineries, and once the big inch
pipeline was finished, between the end of the pipeline and the

refineries.

Bruce,

See my other post, but I thought most WWII era refineries were north
of the gulf - the off-shore oil had not been developed yet.

Dave Evans

See my other post, but I thought most WWII era refineries were north of the gulf - the off-shore oil had not been developed yet.

Well, most of the early Texas discoveries, around 1900, were way in south Texas. You're right that off-shore drilling wasn't much practiced there at the time (developed in California before 1900), but there were HUGE onshore Texas oil fields. You build refineries near the oil when you can.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I wrote:

"Well, most of the early Texas discoveries, around 1900, were way
in south Texas."

It occurs to me that most Texas think of "south Texas" as south of a line between Houston and San Antonio, so my statement will look wrong to them. Let's say Gulf Coast near and east of Houston, and short distances inland away from Houston.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

There are a lot of ways to get the exact layout mix that suits you, limited only by the amount of number-crunching you want to do. You could just look at the exact car classes for each road and again go with the most common. That was too much work for me for the 15 or so RRs I had in mind, because I didn't want to have to track down whether a NYC Lot B-567 car was really the same as a B-702 car and the like. I did want to get a proper mix of long and short cars though.

My assumption was that for my industries and loads the car length was not relevant. What I did after looking at all XM distribution was to determine the ratio of 40-ft to 50-ft XM cars, which was exactly 4:1. So if my RRs by pure XM numbers were PRR (8 XM), NYC (6 XM), and ATSF (6 XM) I figured I needed sixteen 40-ft and four 50-ft cars. Looking at the distribution by car length showed that PRR did not have that many XM 50-ft cars and NYC and ATSF were about equal, so the breakdown was 8x 40 PRR, 4x 40 NYC, 2x 50 NYC, 4x 40 ATSF, 2x 50 ATSF.

With that out of the way I looked at the most common cu ft - length pair for the road. As these could represent several car designs I made a matrix for that cu ft of width and height to segregate them. Usually one car class was strongly dominant (at least 10% more than the next) so that's what I chose to model. When there wasn't a clear leader I went down the line until there was a 10% space and decided to live with any of the top types.

Just my rambling, but one thing useful in all that is it is probably worth have some tolerance in your numbers - if the "leader" isn't at least 10% (or whatever) more than number 2, I think it is perfectly reasonable to substitute something from number 2 in the interest of modeling expediency.

KL

I learn something new every day. Today's no exception. Good thing
that I only invested in a set of dry transfers for the B&O M-53 car I
was thinking of modelling. I can justify ONE B&O car on my layout,
and now I know that I'm better having an M-26. Sigh...I so wanted
that M-53 car!

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Brian, Dave, Folks,

So, here's a philosophical question... For my foreign boxcar

fleet, I

need roughly 5 B&O boxcars based on the national fleet. So what

cars?

Well the WWII fleet consisted of the M15, M26 and rebuilt M15 and

M53

wagontops. The knee jerk response of many modelers might be to use

the

iconic wagontops. After all, you can identify them as B&O without

even

reading the reporting marks! But I can't resist the temptation to

educate

and the wagontops turn out to be a cliche. Their combined made up

just

over 10% (or 1 in 10) of the B&Os boxcar fleet... in reality I

don't need

ANY! The M15 was about 25% of the fleet and the M26 was about 50%

of the

fleet. So, the ICONIC B&O boxcar is the M26. Lets add to that

while the

B&O was known for the Duryea underframe, only about 1/3 of the M26

cars

have this u/f.

OK, so back to the 5 cars I need for B&O. Seems like the M26A and

M26D I

built for Virtual Modelers will work, plus maybe another M26 or

M26A might

be good. Likewise, a Westerfield M15 would be a good idea. That

leaves

one or two slots left, depending on how many M26s I have. So, I

broke

down and filled that spot with an M53, after all, it is an icon

<G>.

However, due to the size of my fleet that car will not appear every

ops

session, but several B&O cars will. What that means is that

operators

will get the CORRECT impression that B&O cars were relatively

common, but

that wagontops were not. Below are the fleet numbers I worked with

for

B&O boxcars

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

M15D 1213 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15H 1165 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15J 2164 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15F 2355 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
Total M15 -6897

M26* 1971 like PRR X29
M26A* 3460 like PRR X29 – RC #7003 undec
M26B* 989 like PRR X29
M26C* 991 like PRR X29
M26D* 5443 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe – Speedwitch
M26E* 986 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe –

Speedwitch

total M26 - 13840

M15K 1227 wagon top rebuild
M53* 1886 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit, F&C kit
M53A* 997 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit
Total wagon tops - 2883

M55A 900 built 1941: 10'-0" IH, Murphy panel roof

Total B&O boxcars 25747

But Steve, averages are just that, and they can be based on wide swings on both sides. Plus, on any given day, all five of the "average" of B&O cars could theoretically wind up on your railroad, or none. And, the big kicker, you could have several of the same classification cars on the same day, or none. And, no one will know that the specific car you have there is not a pathetical possibility, and actually you won't either. The only certainty from all this deep discussion of box car esoterica is that one should steer away from only having the iconic cars from their favorite road that are popular but existed in small quantities in real life, unless you just happened to be operating on the very day in 1956 that the CofG cigar paint scheme box car was dropped off at the exchange track for your railroad. But probably not tomorrow. The point is, the averages are good to know, and even more important is knowing how many of the different types and classes of cars each railroad had, its connection patterns, whether the road tended to try to keep its own cars on its line, and any one of the dozens of variables. Get a rough idea, find some actual manifests if you can, otherwise use common sense and enjoy what you are doing, knowing that there is no way on God's Green Earth that you will be running a prototypical consist except by pure happenstance.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@...: stevelucas3@...: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 00:42:30 +0000Subject: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: [STMFC] Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh




I learn something new every day. Today's no exception. Good thing that I only invested in a set of dry transfers for the B&O M-53 car I was thinking of modelling. I can justify ONE B&O car on my layout, and now I know that I'm better having an M-26. Sigh...I so wanted that M-53 car!Steve Lucas.--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:> > Brian, Dave, Folks,> > So, here's a philosophical question... For my foreign boxcar fleet, I> need roughly 5 B&O boxcars based on the national fleet. So what cars? > Well the WWII fleet consisted of the M15, M26 and rebuilt M15 and M53> wagontops. The knee jerk response of many modelers might be to use the> iconic wagontops. After all, you can identify them as B&O without even> reading the reporting marks! But I can't resist the temptation to educate> and the wagontops turn out to be a cliche. Their combined made up just> over 10% (or 1 in 10) of the B&Os boxcar fleet... in reality I don't need> ANY! The M15 was about 25% of the fleet and the M26 was about 50% of the> fleet. So, the ICONIC B&O boxcar is the M26. Lets add to that while the> B&O was known for the Duryea underframe, only about 1/3 of the M26 cars> have this u/f.> > OK, so back to the 5 cars I need for B&O. Seems like the M26A and M26D I> built for Virtual Modelers will work, plus maybe another M26 or M26A might> be good. Likewise, a Westerfield M15 would be a good idea. That leaves> one or two slots left, depending on how many M26s I have. So, I broke> down and filled that spot with an M53, after all, it is an icon <G>. > However, due to the size of my fleet that car will not appear every ops> session, but several B&O cars will. What that means is that operators> will get the CORRECT impression that B&O cars were relatively common, but> that wagontops were not. Below are the fleet numbers I worked with for> B&O boxcars> > Regards> Bruce> Bruce Smith> Auburn, AL> > M15D 1213 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit> M15H 1165 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit> M15J 2164 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit> M15F 2355 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit> Total M15 -6897> > M26* 1971 like PRR X29> M26A* 3460 like PRR X29 – RC #7003 undec> M26B* 989 like PRR X29> M26C* 991 like PRR X29> M26D* 5443 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe – Speedwitch> M26E* 986 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe – Speedwitch> total M26 - 13840> > M15K 1227 wagon top rebuild> M53* 1886 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit, F&C kit> M53A* 997 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit> Total wagon tops - 2883> > M55A 900 built 1941: 10'-0" IH, Murphy panel roof> > Total B&O boxcars 25747>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, August 15, 2008 5:45 pm, devansprr wrote:

But I do not have good info on details such as tank car manufacturer

type (e.g. 11, 21, 27, etc). If that exists let me know and I'll search
for it - there is a wealth of data in this site - it could use a full
word index system for quicker and more accurate searches.

Tank cars - (Information from Tim Gilbert summarizing the January 1943 ORER)
Union Tank Car Co. 38,707
General American Transportation Co. 27,867
Pennsylvania-Conley Tank - div. of GATX 10,327
Shippers Car Line 6,949
Sinclair Refining Co. 6,447
AT&SF 3,567
US War Department 2,475
SP - Pacific Lines 2,219
Gulf Oil Co. 1,551
UP 1,096
Dupont 1,068
Sun Oil Co. 1,035

However, given that the ORER does not allow us to decipher types, and tank
car companies were notorious for mixing cars from multiple makers into
series, the best I think we can do is try to convey the impression of the
WWII fleet.

Some rules of thumb -
-UTLX had the biggest fleet so the X-3 would likely be the most common
tank (Lots of Sunshine kits!) and IIRC, the 8K size was NOT the most
common (10K?)

-AC&F production of type 21 cars outnumbered type 27 by a significant
margin, and the 8K size was the most common of the type 21s.

-GATC built tanks were fairly common and we have no reasonable model in HO
for a fleet.

-"Oddballs" such as the UTLX "van Dyke", and earlier type 7 and 11 tanks
should not appear in great numbers, but were certainly in use.

So, for now, a fleet of Sunshine and Walthers/P2K tanks with a few
Intermountain, Precision Scale, Speedwitch (NATX tanks), IM/Tichy bashed
USG-A, Southern Car and Foundry (STC cars) and whatever else I've
forgotten (like the RC brass GATC cars and other brass cars) will make a
reasonable fleet with the exception of missing GATC cars. Like boxcars,
this approach will give you the varying sizes and features seen in WWII
era "pipelines on rails"

See my other post, but I thought most WWII era refineries were north of

the gulf - the off-shore oil had not been developed yet.

During WWII, the tank cars and pipelines carried crude oil and not refined
products to the refineries in the NE. Those fields, as others have noted
were onshore fields in Louisianna and Texas.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Some rules of thumb -
-UTLX had the biggest fleet so the X-3 would likely be the most common
tank (Lots of Sunshine kits!) and IIRC, the 8K size was NOT the most
common (10K?)


During WWII, the tank cars and pipelines carried crude oil and not

refined

products to the refineries in the NE. Those fields, as others have

noted

were onshore fields in Louisianna and Texas.

Bruce,

For UTLX, my '43 ORER tank tally has:

18830 - 8k TM
13666 - 10k TM
1008 - 8k TMI
3600 - 10k TMI

plus 1556 under 8k, and 18 either over 10k or multi-compartment.

I thought there were several "mid-continent" refineries during WWII.
Wouldn't tank cars be the only way to get them to the NE? I thought
the pipelines built in WWII were only used for crude?

I know today's Colonial pipeline from the Gulf to the NE (runs about 5
miles from my house) is only for refined product, but it is post-war.

Regards,
Dave Evans

On Aug 17, 2008, at 10:19 PM, devansprr wrote:

I thought there were several "mid-continent" refineries during WWII.

Yes

Wouldn't tank cars be the only way to get them to the NE? I thought
the pipelines built in WWII were only used for crude?

During WWII (and in fact prior and post) the output of "the mid- continent" refineries was used almost exclusively in that region. Those refineries were strained trying to produce just what was needed for the war effort in that area. Very early in the war (winter '42-43) there may have been some shifting of supplies from the central to the eastern region, but it paled in comparison to the movement of crude by rail.

The Big Inch and Little Inch pipelines were build for crude, correct. In addition, many pipelines that had been built to carry refined products away from refineries were "reversed" to carry crude towards the refineries.

This book "Petroleum Administration at War" that I keep referring to has all of this in (painful) detail. For example, last night as I continued to wade through it, I learned that drilling in established fields was restricted to a 40 acre plot spacing, to maximize production while minimizing steel use. Interestingly, even back then, there were serious concerns that the war would so deplete the known reserves that oil might become a rare fuel... foreshadowing our current situation. Written in 1946, the book is also a fascinating mixture of the gloating of the victor mixed with revelations about just how dire the oil situation, and in fact the war, as it depended on oil, had been. Included are both remarkable stories of government industry cooperation, as well as bungling (eg. not telling the oil producers what products would be needed where and when for secrecy reasons, and many rationing problems).

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

This book "Petroleum Administration at War" that I keep referring to
has all of this in (painful) detail.

Bruce,

If one found this book for a reasonable price on e-bay, Amazon or
Alibris, does it have enough good RR related info to justify a purchase?

Is this a gov't published book, or commercial? Does it look like it
could be part of a series analyzing US WWII industries?

Thanks for the good info,

Dave Evans

On Aug 18, 2008, at 7:56 AM, devansprr wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

This book "Petroleum Administration at War" that I keep referring to
has all of this in (painful) detail.

Bruce,

If one found this book for a reasonable price on e-bay, Amazon or
Alibris, does it have enough good RR related info to justify a purchase?

Is this a gov't published book, or commercial? Does it look like it
could be part of a series analyzing US WWII industries?

Dave,

History of the Petroleum Administration for War, 1941-1945, Paperback
By: Petroleum Administration for War (Author), et al

I picked up my copy at Amazon for $37.50. Was it worth that much? YMMV. I once bought a book for $150 because it had a photo I wanted to see...

Does the book have specific railroad information? Nothing on ownership, lots on transportation, and a tremendous amount of "setting the scene" that I think will be invaluable in simply providing the milieu of 1944. So this book will not particularly help you with building models or even assembling or running trains, but it will give you an in-depth understanding of how the petroleum industry worked and information on ancillary industries as well. The chapter on rationing was fascinating stuff, and will be useful in getting my service stations modeled, for example.

It was a govt publication, although this reprint may be private (I didn't look). It is basically the final report of the PAW on all of their activities during the war. It is reasonably lengthy... like 400 pages, although about 1/3 of that is appendices.

It is a policy wonk's dream and is loaded with lots of neat statistics. I use it to help me fall asleep at night, which explains my slow progress ;^)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
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Sorry to be slow in responding; I was away over the weekend.

On Aug 17, 2008, at 4:03 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:

On Fri, August 15, 2008 5:45 pm, devansprr wrote:

But I do not have good info on details such as tank car manufacturer

type (e.g. 11, 21, 27, etc). If that exists let me know and I'll
search
for it - there is a wealth of data in this site - it could use a full
word index system for quicker and more accurate searches.

Tank cars - (Information from Tim Gilbert summarizing the January
1943 ORER)
Union Tank Car Co. 38,707
General American Transportation Co. 27,867
Pennsylvania-Conley Tank - div. of GATX 10,327
Shippers Car Line 6,949
Sinclair Refining Co. 6,447
AT&SF 3,567
US War Department 2,475
SP - Pacific Lines 2,219
Gulf Oil Co. 1,551
UP 1,096
Dupont 1,068
Sun Oil Co. 1,035

However, given that the ORER does not allow us to decipher types,
and tank
car companies were notorious for mixing cars from multiple makers into
series, the best I think we can do is try to convey the impression
of the
WWII fleet.

From my perspective, "conveying the impression" isn't just the best
we can do, it's exactly what we're trying to do: convey the visual
impression in miniature of the real thing. It seems to me that, in
the process of flogging the subject of freight car distribution to
death, some list members have lost sight of that fact. Building a
realistic freight car fleet for a model that represents a specific
railroad at a specific time and place is what most, if not all, of us
want to do. Every kind of information that helps us do that is
valuable: train and yard photos, conductor's train sheets, switch
lists, and, yes, the insightful statistical analyses of Tim Gilbert,
Dave Nelson, et. al. Depending on prototype RR, location, era, and
other variables each of us has to interpret the available data for
ourselves, with the objective of running trains which will be
visually convincing not just to the average viewer but to the
cognoscenti, i.e. the kind of people who subscribe to this list.
Above all, we want to avoid the kinds of anachronisms or
improbabilities that will make the illusion go "pop!" - e.g., in the
case of WW II tank car trains, running RC's otherwise very nice
models of postwar welded ICC-103Ws.

Having said that, let me elaborate a bit on Bruce's useful
observations about WW II tank cars.

Some rules of thumb -
-UTLX had the biggest fleet so the X-3 would likely be the most common
tank (Lots of Sunshine kits!) and IIRC, the 8K size was NOT the most
common (10K?)

Yes, 10K gal. X-3s were far more numerous than 8K gal. X-3s, and
should be ubiquitous. But remember that UTL also owned many cars
that were older types (the frameless type Vs and the similar type Xs
with underframes in 6, 8, and 10K sizes) as well as cars of other
than UTL design (e.g., a whole bunch of early GATC radial-course 8K
gal. cars which UTL purchased new in the early'20s as well as some 8K
and 10K AC&F Type 21s, and even a few STC tank cars, all acquired
second-hand).

-AC&F production of type 21 cars outnumbered type 27 by a significant
margin, and the 8K size was the most common of the type 21s.

More importantly, by the 1930s when the Type 27s had replaced the
Type 21s, few oil companies were buying new tank cars, having turned
to pipelines as a more efficient and economical way to transport
petroleum products. Similarly, few GATC Type 30s were in petroleum
service. The vast majority of the cars that were equipped for, and
available for, crude oil shipments during WW II were built in the
'teens and '20s.

-GATC built tanks were fairly common and we have no reasonable
model in HO

Type 30 models are on the horizon, but - as noted above - the GATC
tank cars we most need are earlier cars, many with radial course
tanks. And we need a lot of those.

-"Oddballs" such as the UTLX "van Dyke", and earlier type 7 and 11
tanks
should not appear in great numbers, but were certainly in use.

I agree that the Van Dykes would not have been numerous, though a
surprising number of them did get resurrected for the WW II oil
crisis. I don't agree about the earlier AC&F cars; Type 11s and Type
17s, and even some Type 7s, were very common in the fleets of many
petroleum shippers, and the many WW II photos I have show them all
over the place.

So, for now, a fleet of Sunshine and Walthers/P2K tanks with a few
Intermountain, Precision Scale, Speedwitch (NATX tanks), IM/Tichy
bashed
USG-A, Southern Car and Foundry (STC cars) and whatever else I've
forgotten (like the RC brass GATC cars and other brass cars) will
make a
reasonable fleet with the exception of missing GATC cars. Like
boxcars,
this approach will give you the varying sizes and features seen in
WWII
era "pipelines on rails"

All true, as far as it goes (and Bruce goes about as far as he
reasonably can at present). We certainly need GATC cars built ca.
1915-1930, but the problem is that GATC kept changing them so that
some designs were built only for a very few years, so we probably
won't see these in styrene any time soon. I would add that we very
much need models of the UTL class X cars, which were built in large
numbers and lasted, in many cases, into the 1960s. Something else we
need are 3-course AC&F Type 21 tanks to go on the P2K underframes;
the four course tanks modeled by L-L were built only in the early
1920s, and I have many photos of three course 10K gal. Type 21s in
petroleum service. Once Jon Cagle gets his STC models in production,
we could also use Pennsylvania Tank Car Co. underframes; PTC's plant
was right next door to STC's in Sharon, PA and PTC bought tanks from
STC to put on their own underframes, so a decent PTC underframe
combined with Cagle's STC tanks and a few minor detail modifications
would enable us to model another group of tank cars that were
produced in large numbers in the 1920s. Other tank cars that have
been modeled in brass over the years will add variety, if you can
find (and, nowadays, afford) them. However, in the forseeable
future, it's not going to be possible to model realistic WW II tank
trains by popping RTR plastic models out of their boxes and putting
them on the track.

As for comprehensive prototype information on steam era tank cars,
I'm working on it, but a couple of other books are currently higher
on my priority list.

Richard Hendrickson