ed_mines wrote:

The yellow area aound the reporting marks on the 2 very dirty reefers is rectangular with clean cut edges. I doubt it would look that way if someone rubbed or washed the grime off by hand.

Sometimes a clean area DID have pretty regular edges, but it was also sometimes the case that fresh paint has been sprayed right over the grime. Hard to be sure without a high-resolution image, to look whether corners are sharp or rounded, and edges truly straight.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@...,

Al Brown wrote:

Without having seen the picture, I infer that the "black" cars were
extra-dirty, and the yellow(-orange) patches around the reporting
marks were where they'd been cleaned for legibility?

Without seeing the photo I'd assume that too.

The yellow area aound the reporting marks on the 2 very dirty reefers
is rectangular with clean cut edges. I doubt it would look that way if
someone rubbed or washed the grime off by hand.

I found something interesting which I hadn't noticed before. Adjacent
to the PFE section there's a second, much smaller "clean" area (maybe
for repack data?) which is orange on one of the cars.

I've asked the editor if I can get a copy of the original.

Ed

Al Brown wrote:

Without having seen the picture, I infer that the "black" cars were extra-dirty, and the yellow(-orange) patches around the reporting marks were where they'd been cleaned for legibility?

I would assume the same.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Without having seen the picture, I infer that the "black" cars were
extra-dirty, and the yellow(-orange) patches around the reporting
marks were where they'd been cleaned for legibility?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

ed_mines wrote:

I thought prototype modelers wanted to accurately model cars (and
entire trains) as they appeared in service, not as built. Any

group of

cars might have a couple of freshly painted cars but most would

be

weathered to varying degrees including paint that shifted color.

Yes, and a yellowish cast is fine for well-weathered cars. But

part

of the sharp reaction by both Richard and me is that there have

been

model manufacturers, and individual modelers, who have painted PFE

cars

bright yellow, without weathering. That's wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Yes, and a yellowish cast is fine for well-weathered cars.

Didn't PFE wash their reefers every few trips?

They got pretty sooty passing through Erie's Otisville Tunnel.

I guess you have to see the picture.

Ed

ed_mines wrote:

I thought prototype modelers wanted to accurately model cars (and entire trains) as they appeared in service, not as built. Any group of cars might have a couple of freshly painted cars but most would be weathered to varying degrees including paint that shifted color.

Yes, and a yellowish cast is fine for well-weathered cars. But part of the sharp reaction by both Richard and me is that there have been model manufacturers, and individual modelers, who have painted PFE cars bright yellow, without weathering. That's wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Ed: they were not yellow. Period. The "Daylight Orange" paint
did weather in the direction of yellow, but the cars were not wearing
yellow paint. If you'd run your thumbnail over that "yellow" color,

you

would have seen the deep orange underneath. I've done exactly that
exercise with some preserved PFE cars.
And as Richard observed, the original colors are VERY well
documented and have been published in the form of carefully printed
color panels. What an elderly slide has to do with that somewhat
escapes me.

The original colors are well documented.

I thought prototype modelers wanted to accurately model cars (and
entire trains) as they appeared in service, not as built. Any group of
cars might have a couple of freshly painted cars but most would be
weathered to varying degrees including paint that shifted color.

Ed

Edward Mines wrote:

The color cover of the most recent Diamond (E-L society) shows 3 PFE reefers from a color photo or slide taken in 1954.
The furthest reefer (smallest in the picture) has 2 B&W heralds and is yellow, without a trace of orange.

Ed: they were not yellow. Period. The "Daylight Orange" paint did weather in the direction of yellow, but the cars were not wearing yellow paint. If you'd run your thumbnail over that "yellow" color, you would have seen the deep orange underneath. I've done exactly that exercise with some preserved PFE cars.
And as Richard observed, the original colors are VERY well documented and have been published in the form of carefully printed color panels. What an elderly slide has to do with that somewhat escapes me.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Aug 26, 2008, at 8:59 AM, Edward Mines wrote:

The color cover of the most recent Diamond (E-L society) shows 3 PFE
reefers from a color photo or slide taken in 1954.

The furthest reefer (smallest in the picture) has 2 B&W heralds and
is yellow, without a trace of orange. The 2 closest reefers are
almost black with rectangular yellow patches around the reporting
marks.

The little photo inside giving information about the photo shows a
fourth
PFE reefer which has some orange in the color. There's even part of a
fifth reefer (slightly orange too) but it may not be a PFE reefer

Any comments Tony? Richard? Schuyler? Until I saw the small photo I
thought the photo might have selective fading.

Ed, you keep raising the subject of reefer paint colors, and, as has
been stated before on this list, the facts are really quite simple.
In the 1930s through 1950s, the sides of PFE reefers were painted
yellow-orange. Not yellow. Not orange. Yellow-orange. We know
what color it was because drift panels have survived, and one of them
is quite accurately reproduced in Tony's PFE book. FWIW, the sides
of Santa Fe reefers were painted in a color that was almost
identical. Of course, the paint was subject to fading. weathering
and dirt. But basing any conclusions about paint color on vintage
color slides, and especially on printed reproductions of them, is an
exercise in futility. They may not have been accurate to start with,
depending on lighting, exposure, filters etc.; older slides have
often color-shifted; and the color in a printed reproduction can vary
a great deal from the original image. Speculation prompted by such
unreliable evidence is pointless, especially since we KNOW what color
the cars were painted. What is it about this that you don't understand?

Richard Hendrickson

The color cover of the most recent Diamond (E-L society) shows 3 PFE
reefers from a color photo or slide taken in 1954.

The furthest reefer (smallest in the picture) has 2 B&W heralds and
is yellow, without a trace of orange. The 2 closest reefers are
almost black with rectangular yellow patches around the reporting
marks.

The little photo inside giving information about the photo shows a fourth
PFE reefer which has some orange in the color. There's even part of a
fifth reefer (slightly orange too) but it may not be a PFE reefer

Any comments Tony? Richard? Schuyler? Until I saw the small photo I
thought the photo might have selective fading.

Typical or not?

There's good roof detail on 2 box cars with unpainted running boards.

Ed


Edward B. Mines
238 Willard Dr.
Hewlett, NY 11557
516 205-6523