This reminds of hearing, years ago, that GN modelers had many disagreements about exactly what the GN green really is: is it Pullman green, or dark olive green like the Harriman Lines green, or is it close to military olive drab?
I do know that at least one commercial paint calling itself "GN green" is an accurate match to SP color chips for "Dark Olive" passenger car paint, and NOT to Pullman green.
Can the GN folks on the list bring me up to date on this issue? I'd be interested.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

This reminds of hearing, years ago, that GN modelers had many
disagreements about exactly what the GN green really is: is it Pullman
green, or dark olive green like the Harriman Lines green, or is it
close to military olive drab?
I do know that at least one commercial paint calling itself
"GN green" is an accurate match to SP color chips for "Dark Olive"
passenger car paint, and NOT to Pullman green.
Can the GN folks on the list bring me up to date on this
issue? I'd be interested.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony,
According to GN Ry. stencil diagram #33257 dated 8/3/41 for NW-3 locomotives,
reprinted in by GNRHS in Reference Sheet #21, the green is clearly labeled "Pullman
Green" with Duco color number 254-4558 and Dulux color number 88-4552 being given.
If you really want to see the fur fly, discuss the color of GN steam locomotive boiler
jackets, GN diesel lettering colors, or the color of the roofs of GN heavyweight passenger
cars. Just not on this list, please.
To bring this message back on topic, the green color on GN's plywood boxcars is given
as Pullman Green by John Westley in GNRHS reference sheet #171, and GN stencil diagram
#25985 dated 5/18/44 was reproduced in GNRHS reference sheet #37. It lists the color
as "green" and states "for colors, see goat monogram drawing 27774". An earlier version
of the goat monogram drawing numbered 198 had apparently been used on some cars as
well, and was lined out on diagram #25985. Unfortunately, neither monogram diagram is
reproduced in RS #37.
It is a moot point probably, because you are better off matching the paint to the decals
you are going to use. And FWIW, IMHO you should replace the decals that come with the
Sunshine kits with Champ set HB-528. The "font" (sorry Tony) is not accurate in the
included lettering. I believe we may be getting another set of decals for these cars, but
that is in the future. The Champ decals are still available if you need them now.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Iowa City, Iowa

This is an interesting thread: Somewhere I came across a discussion about this matter. The authorities on the subject stated that the original paint on the plywood boxcars was of course Omaha orange and NOT Pullman green ends and roof BUT black. Surely, a GN researcher out there somewhere has incontrovertible data to settle this.

Tom

On Tue, September 2, 2008 7:16 pm, Thomas Baker wrote:

This is an interesting thread: Somewhere I came across a discussion about
this matter. The authorities on the subject stated that the original
paint on the plywood boxcars was of course Omaha orange and NOT Pullman
green ends and roof BUT black. Surely, a GN researcher out there
somewhere has incontrovertible data to settle this.

Tom

Tom,

I don't believe that anyone in this thread ever said that they had green
ends and roof. The painting instructions in the Sunshine kit, as well as
the GN instructions clearly specify black ends, roof and underbody. What
was green was the sides of the ends, the "fascia" at the top of the car,
the side sill of the car and the hardware (grabs, side tack boards etc)

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Tony,

If you ask 10 GN modelers what is the "true" color of GN
Green (or Empire Builder Green ... or Pullman Green) you
will get 15 different answers ... it's a never ending
discussion on GNGoat. The orange isn't any easier. And
the question doesn't seem any closer to being resolved
than it was at the time you refer to below.

My personal answer is "they are -all- correct". Meaning
that when I look at any kind of "evidence" I always get a
different answer. And each guy (who is willing to take a
stand) seems to pick his own special set of "evidence".

Yeah, when we are talking the era of the Orange and Green
Empire Builder and later you can make pretty strong 'proofs'
by using color formulas and what not. But the evidence also
seems to be equally strong that not every piece of equipment was
painted with paint that was mixed at the same time and to
the same specs ... or with the same color(s) underneath it ...
or photographed in the same light or with the same film ... or
printed with the same 'printer's eye' ... etc., etc., etc.

There -is- one point about all of this that is important
to be made. And that is that although most color pictures in
most books of trains (any road, any day) seem to indicate
that the color of the equipment was "very close to each other
from car to car" ... it seems that "fact" is heavily influenced
by the "printer's art". So even whether or not a given
passenger train on a given day looked pretty homogenous if
you looked at it from one side is somewhat in question. I
know that every time I look at an actual slide taken in the
STMFC period I don't see the kind of homogeneity of color
that you see in prints of said equipment in a book (which is
the primary resource/evidence of most "color cops").

So if you don't mind I'll just not say what shade I prefer
to use - whilst dodging the bullets. Aw shucks - why be a
wimp? I use Scalecoat and like it (most of the time).

- Jim in San Jose
(whose moniker on Yahoo Groups is OldRockyGN)

P.S. And who is suspecting that Sir Thompson was just "stirring
the pot" when he made this post. A real rabble-rouser!

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

This reminds of hearing, years ago, that GN modelers had

many

disagreements about exactly what the GN green really is: is it

Pullman

green, or dark olive green like the Harriman Lines green, or is it
close to military olive drab?
I do know that at least one commercial paint calling itself
"GN green" is an accurate match to SP color chips for "Dark Olive"
passenger car paint, and NOT to Pullman green.
Can the GN folks on the list bring me up to date on this
issue? I'd be interested.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

________________________________


The debate about color among GN modelers and historians comes as no surprise. I suspect that it the same for many of the railroad special interest groups. It certainly is on the CGW list where the question surfaces every now and then: What is the proper maroon? What are the proper tones of red and maroon-brown for the diesel delivery scheme? And so it goes.

The point about when a piece of equipment was painted and by whom is most likely valid. Those who authorized the procurement of paint--and most certainly those who mixed colors if mixing was to be done--were probably not as fastidious about "true" Omaha orange or "true" Pullman green as the modelers are. Add to that the builders of equipment who saw a "close" color match and went with it.

Tom

Am currious: which one?

Dave Nelson

I believe Tony refers to Scalecoat GN Green, which is much darker
than SC GN Empire Builder Green. I find the SC EB Green to be a
good match for -faded- GN EB Green (which I have seen personally)
but not for factory-fresh EB Green which is darker and browner. The
recent Walthers (P2K) F units and passenger cars in EB colors are
a near match to my Railway Classics and Challenger passenger cars.
When it comes to these colors on freight cars, consistency is less
important than on locomotives and passenger cars. The SC EB
orange is, IMO, very close to the original. I can tell you first hand
that many colors & combinations have been produced by vendors,
including brass models. I'm sure this is why the topic is so active
among GN modelers.

Tim O'Connor

Dave Nelson wrote:

Am currious: which one?

in reply to my message-----
> I do know that at least one commercial paint calling itself
"GN green" is an accurate match to SP color chips for "Dark Olive" passenger car paint, and NOT to Pullman green.<

The Accuflex "GN Green" (paint #16-65) was an excellent match to the SP "Dark Olive" paint chip. Polly S "Olive Drab," #500850 or FS 33070, was also quite close. Scalecoat's "Pullman Green" was not at all close to the SP chip, while Model Masters (Testors) "Olive Drab" (#1711 or FS 34087) is pretty close, though too green and without the balance of yellow and brown in the SP chip.
These of course are SP paint conclusions, but note that the Accuflex color, called "GN Green," is not at all close to the Scalecoat "Pullman Green," though the latter is not a bad match to the paint chip in Arthur Dubin's Pullman paint chips in his Kalmbach painting book.
I will leave it to the GN experts to say whether this "GN Green" is the same as "Empire Builder Green."

Tim O'Connor wrote:

I believe Tony refers to Scalecoat GN Green, which is much darker than

SC GN Empire Builder Green. <

No. I did not test either color.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Hi Tony,

I don't know whether you were attempting to provide
a complete list of paints that match Dark Olive. In
the event that you were, you forgot to mention PBL's
Star Brand paint "UP/SP/Rio Grande Dark Olive". I
haven't tested it, and wonder if anyone has.

Regards,

Rod

Anthony Thompson wrote:

Rod Miller wrote:

I don't know whether you were attempting to provide a complete list of paints that match Dark Olive . . .

No, just intending to provide examples, and especially to make people aware that some of the military paints are quite close.

In the event that you were, you forgot to mention PBL's Star Brand paint "UP/SP/Rio Grande Dark Olive". I haven't tested it, and wonder if anyone has.

Thanks for the reminder. The PBL color is superbly accurate, maybe no surprise since they had access to an SP paint chip to match.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history