Pabst Car


Justin Kahn
 

There is one point (at least I think so) that no one has addressed: presumably the car did not contain beer
because of the date and Prohibition, but another argument might be that I seem to recall that most beer
shipments were not iced. Shipped in insulated cars, but not actively refrigerated.

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.


Being a natural contrarian -- perhaps the Pabst reefer was there simply
because it needed ice!
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Justin Kahn wrote:
There is one point (at least I think so) that no one has addressed: presumably the car did not contain beer
because of the date and Prohibition, but another argument might be that I seem to recall that most beer
shipments were not iced. Shipped in insulated cars, but not actively refrigerated.
Justin, I'm not getting your point: you're saying that beer wasn't refrigerated, but this car, not carrying beer, was getting iced? or not getting iced, just part of the string at the ice deck?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


michael bishop <goldrod_1@...>
 

During the Prohibtion in the United States†on the Federal level†from January 29, 1920 to March 22, 1933 ( this allowed 3.2 beer and some wines) then December 5, 1933†when the†The Eighteenth Amendment was repealed with ratification of the Twenty-first Amendent became law. How† were the beer reefers used? If leased, were turned back into the leaseing company and used how ever needed?††If company owned, were the sold off, placed into a lease to someone else?†13 years is a long time for cars sit around and do nothing.

MIchael

--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Justin Kahn <harumd@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Justin Kahn <harumd@hotmail.com>
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Pabst Car
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 11:45 AM

There is one point (at least I think so) that no one has addressed: presumably
the car did not contain beer
because of the date and Prohibition, but another argument might be that I seem
to recall that most beer
shipments were not iced. Shipped in insulated cars, but not actively
refrigerated.

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.


Being a natural contrarian -- perhaps the Pabst reefer was there simply
because it needed ice!
_________________________________________________________________
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

michael bishop wrote:
During the Prohibtion in the United States on the Federal level from
January 29, 1920 to March 22, 1933 ( this allowed 3.2 beer and some
wines) then December 5, 1933 when the The Eighteenth Amendment was
repealed with ratification of the Twenty-first Amendent became law.
How  were the beer reefers used? If leased, were turned back into the
leaseing company and used how ever needed?  If company owned, were the
sold off, placed into a lease to someone else? 13 years is a long time
for cars sit around and do nothing.
Richard Hendrickson, author of the authoritative book on billboard
cars, can probably answer better than me, but the 1920s were a time of
greatly increasing produce shipments from the west, along with boom
economic times generally. I'm sure the pre-1920 beer cars did not "sit
around and do nothing."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


ATSF1226
 

Michael,
The Volstead Act or 18th Amendment allowed no Beer, Wine or liquor
above 0.5 percent Alcohol until after the 21st Amendent was passed in
1933. Each household was allowed to make a certain quantity of Beer
or Wine. Beer after 1933 was 3.2. And still is in some states. The
21st Amendment allowed states to set their own laws on liquor and a
number of them were dry. I think Kansas still is.

A lot of Beer makers just made something else. As I said earlier
Pabst made Cheese. There was still a demand for Grapes, Barley, Hops
and Corn in Canada so maybe some of the reefers were used for the
transportation of the raw materials to that area.

George A Walls


During the Prohibtion in the United States on the Federal
level from January 29, 1920 to March 22, 1933 ( this allowed 3.2 beer
and some wines) then December 5, 1933 when the The Eighteenth
Amendment was repealed with ratification of the Twenty-first Amendent
became law. How  were the beer reefers used? If leased, were turned
back into the leaseing company and used how ever needed?  If company
owned, were the sold off, placed into a lease to someone else? 13
years is a long time for cars sit around and do nothing.
 
MIchael
--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Justin Kahn <harumd@...> wrote:

From: Justin Kahn <harumd@...>
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Pabst Car
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 11:45 AM

There is one point (at least I think so) that no one has addressed:
presumably
the car did not contain beer
because of the date and Prohibition, but another argument might be
that I seem
to recall that most beer
shipments were not iced. Shipped in insulated cars, but not
actively
refrigerated.

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.


Being a natural contrarian -- perhaps the Pabst reefer was there
simply
because it needed ice!
_________________________________________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from
Jamie.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-
Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008

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water.kresse@...
 

Could these be transported in ventilated boxes: Grapes, Barley, Hops
and Corn?

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "George A. Walls" <atsf1226@yahoo.com>
Michael,
The Volstead Act or 18th Amendment allowed no Beer, Wine or liquor
above 0.5 percent Alcohol until after the 21st Amendent was passed in
1933. Each household was allowed to make a certain quantity of Beer
or Wine. Beer after 1933 was 3.2. And still is in some states. The
21st Amendment allowed states to set their own laws on liquor and a
number of them were dry. I think Kansas still is.

A lot of Beer makers just made something else. As I said earlier
Pabst made Cheese. There was still a demand for Grapes, Barley, Hops
and Corn in Canada so maybe some of the reefers were used for the
transportation of the raw materials to that area.

George A Walls

During the Prohibtion in the United States on the Federal
level from January 29, 1920 to March 22, 1933 ( this allowed 3.2 beer
and some wines) then December 5, 1933 when the The Eighteenth
Amendment was repealed with ratification of the Twenty-first Amendent
became law. How were the beer reefers used? If leased, were turned
back into the leaseing company and used how ever needed? If company
owned, were the sold off, placed into a lease to someone else? 13
years is a long time for cars sit around and do nothing.

MIchael
--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Justin Kahn <harumd@...> wrote:

From: Justin Kahn <harumd@...>
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Pabst Car
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 11:45 AM

There is one point (at least I think so) that no one has addressed:
presumably
the car did not contain beer
because of the date and Prohibition, but another argument might be
that I seem
to recall that most beer
shipments were not iced. Shipped in insulated cars, but not
actively
refrigerated.

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.


Being a natural contrarian -- perhaps the Pabst reefer was there
simply
because it needed ice!
__________________________________________________________
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from
Jamie.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-
Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008




------------------------------------

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Mark Pierce <marcoperforar@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "George A. Walls" <atsf1226@...> wrote:

....A lot of Beer makers just made something else. As I said earlier
Pabst made Cheese. There was still a demand for Grapes, Barley, Hops
and Corn in Canada so maybe some of the reefers were used for the
transportation of the raw materials to that area.
Canada had its own alcoholic prohibition at the time, but Canadian
companies were permitted to produce alcoholic beverages for export
only, so production there boomed during US's prohibition period. I
suspect those Canadian companies came upon harder times with passage of
the 21st amendment.

Mark


Tim O'Connor
 

I think some beers definitely had to be refrigerated because they were
not pasteurized. A reefer packed tight with cold beer (40 degrees) could
still gain several degrees a day in hot weather. Until Coors built a
bottling plant in Virginia, they would not ship east of Chicago because
transit times would result in the beer getting too warm. (Even modern
insulated beer boxcars gain about 2-3 degrees a day.) How hot can a
bottle of pasteurized beer get before it's no good?

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
Justin Kahn wrote:
There is one point (at least I think so) that no one has addressed:
presumably the car did not contain beer
because of the date and Prohibition, but another argument might be
that I seem to recall that most beer
shipments were not iced. Shipped in insulated cars, but not actively
refrigerated.
Justin, I'm not getting your point: you're saying that beer
wasn't refrigerated, but this car, not carrying beer, was getting iced?
or not getting iced, just part of the string at the ice deck?

Tony Thompson


Doug Rhodes
 

Not quite right about the history of prohibition in Canada.

Prohibition in Canada was a provincial matter. There was some overlap with the period of prohibition in the US, with some Canadian jurisdictions going dry earlier than the US, but after World War 1 provinces began repealing their prohibition laws, Quebec in 1919, BC in 1920 and others throughout the 1920s. All were repealed by 1930 except Prince Edward Island, which was dry until after World War 2. So alcohol was legal for production and sale in many communities and provinces in Canada long before the US repealed prohibition, starting in 1933.

Even during the short period when Canada had widespread prohibition in parallel with the US, it was considerably more lenient in Canada with many more exceptions - for example, old timers talk about going to the drug store to get their "prescriptions" filled, with long line-ups there at Christmas.

Production in Canada did indeed boom during the period, and though not entirely for export, Canada's market was small compared to the US, as it still is. No question that some notable Canadian fortunes were built on alcohol production during US prohibition, clearly not all based on sales of product within Canada! Some Canadian suppliers maintained significant market share in the US after the repeal, based on customer preferences and name recognition established during the "rum running" era.

I have no data to support the hypothesis, but it seems logical that some of the raw materials may have travelled north to Canada in reefers for incorporation into products intended for export back to the US.

Doug Rhodes

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Pierce
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:01 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Pabst Car


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "George A. Walls" <atsf1226@...> wrote:
>
> ....A lot of Beer makers just made something else. As I said earlier
> Pabst made Cheese. There was still a demand for Grapes, Barley, Hops
> and Corn in Canada so maybe some of the reefers were used for the
> transportation of the raw materials to that area.
>
Canada had its own alcoholic prohibition at the time, but Canadian
companies were permitted to produce alcoholic beverages for export
only, so production there boomed during US's prohibition period. I
suspect those Canadian companies came upon harder times with passage of
the 21st amendment.

Mark


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@... wrote:


I think some beers definitely had to be refrigerated because they were
not pasteurized. A reefer packed tight with cold beer (40 degrees) could
still gain several degrees a day in hot weather. Until Coors built a
bottling plant in Virginia, they would not ship east of Chicago because
transit times would result in the beer getting too warm. (Even modern
insulated beer boxcars gain about 2-3 degrees a day.) How hot can a
bottle of pasteurized beer get before it's no good?

Tim O'Connor
It depends on the brand… If it's Carlings or Busch Bavarian, likely
200 deg F. couldn't hurt it :-)

Seriously, it seems most beer was shipped in insulated boxcars or
bunkerless refrigerator cars during the steam era, maybe because the
beer was being Pasteurized. Anheuser-Busch owned a car line, St. Louis
Refrigerator Co., SLRX, that owned 600 cars in 1929; 965 cars in 1958;
ALL RB's (Refrigerator, Bunkerless). Meister Brau in Chicago always
shipped in RBL's during the sixties; I knew a guy that was briefly
employed as a loader. I think the insulation was needed to keep the
bottles / kegs from bursting from pressure caused from heating what is
basically a carbonated beverage, not because of spoilage.


Dennis


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 30, 2008, at 12:26 PM, michael bishop wrote:

During the Prohibtion in the United States on the Federal level
from January 29, 1920 to March 22, 1933 ( this allowed 3.2 beer and
some wines) then December 5, 1933 when the The Eighteenth Amendment
was repealed with ratification of the Twenty-first Amendent became
law. How were the beer reefers used? If leased, were turned back
into the leaseing company and used how ever needed? If company
owned, were the sold off, placed into a lease to someone else? 13
years is a long time for cars sit around and do nothing.
As I've note in another post, the large breweries continued to make
malt beverages, malt syrup (for home brewing, which remained legal),
and other non-alcoholic products and these were shipped in
refrigerator cars (used mostly, as others have pointed out, as RBs
with no ice in the bunkers). Surplus cars owned by the car leasing
companies were returned to their owners and leased to other
shippers. Hardly any brewing companies owned their own cars -
Anheuser-Busch and its St. Louis Refrigerator Car Co. were a notable
exception, and some traffic must have been found for SLRX cars during
prohibition because almost 700 of them were operated by the
Manufacturers Railway Co. (also wholly owned by A-B) in the mid-1920s.


Richard Hendrickson