NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the
June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed
box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding. If it is,
indeed, the same car it has been renumbered 83400 when rebuilt. The
ad claims the rebuilt car is 4" higher and 3" wider.

When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place?
Reused somehow? Discarded with a new structure attached to the side
sill?

Three inches extra width is approximately the thickness of the
original wooden sides. Surely the rebuilt car is double-sheathed.

How did the car get wider?

What does the "S-" in the original number represent? I am sure I am
not the first to ask this question but I couldn't find an answer in
the archives. Searching for "NYC" plus "S-" yields every message
containing NYC and any word beginning with the letter S.

Would any of the original single-sheathed USRA box cars on the NYC
(any number series) have survived until 1950 without being rebuilt?

Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934
rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty
standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York
Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color.
A lot number that is almost legible is above the herald.

Sorry for such a long message. Should I post a scan of the ad
somewhere?

Gene Green
OitwTtoEP


Don Burn
 

Gene,

Martin Lofton's article about USRA rebuilds in Sept 1989 RMC shows a series of pictures for a Rock Island rebuild, they did not use the truss members only the frame/floor and the ends. That photo series has a comment about sheet metal extensions to widen the car.

Don Burn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Green" <bierglaeser@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 3:06 PM
Subject: [STMFC] NYC PMcK&Y USRA S-S box cars


Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the
June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed
box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding. If it is,
indeed, the same car it has been renumbered 83400 when rebuilt. The
ad claims the rebuilt car is 4" higher and 3" wider.

When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place?
Reused somehow? Discarded with a new structure attached to the side
sill?

Three inches extra width is approximately the thickness of the
original wooden sides. Surely the rebuilt car is double-sheathed.

How did the car get wider?

What does the "S-" in the original number represent? I am sure I am
not the first to ask this question but I couldn't find an answer in
the archives. Searching for "NYC" plus "S-" yields every message
containing NYC and any word beginning with the letter S.

Would any of the original single-sheathed USRA box cars on the NYC
(any number series) have survived until 1950 without being rebuilt?

Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934
rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty
standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York
Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color.
A lot number that is almost legible is above the herald.

Sorry for such a long message. Should I post a scan of the ad
somewhere?

Gene Green
OitwTtoEP




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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding . . .
When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place? Reused somehow? Discarded with a new structure attached to the side sill?
Gene, rebuilding these cars normally used modern sheet steel sides, as in the case of these PMcK&Y cars and many others. The new sides did not need diagonal truss members but had inside posts, as with other steel box cars.

How did the car get wider?
By not including the width of the truss, the car skin could be at the outside of the car width. You can see it on the ends, which usually had to be widened or replaced to accommodate the new inside width.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
"Looking at a Youngstown Steel Door Co. ad on the rear cover of the
June 17, 1937 issue of Railway Age shows PMcK&Y USRA single-sheathed
box car number S-81290 before and after rebuilding. If it is,
indeed, the same car it has been renumbered 83400 when rebuilt. The
ad claims the rebuilt car is 4" higher and 3" wider.

"When rebuilding the car would the truss members be left in place?"

No.


"Reused somehow?"

In this case, no.


"Discarded with a new structure attached to the side sill?"

Yes.


"Three inches extra width is approximately the thickness of the
original wooden sides. Surely the rebuilt car is double-sheathed."

Yes, in the same way that contemporary steel boxcars were double-
sheathed.


"How did the car get wider?"

The replacement steel car body was wider than the original SS
boxcar. If you look at the side sill, you will see a
pronouced "step" with side-sill brackets where the original
underframe meets the new carbody.


"What does the "S-" in the original number represent?"

The following explanation is from Terry Link's website,
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm :

'During the 1920's, many cars had a "S-" in front of the car number.
This was meant to indicate that these were "system cars" and were
considered on home rails regardless of which NYC subsidiary they were
on. So a Michigan Central car could be returned to Big Four rails and
be considered 'home' for accounting purposes.'


"Would any of the original single-sheathed USRA box cars on the NYC
(any number series) have survived until 1950 without being rebuilt?"

Only the PMcK&Y USRA SS boxcars were rebuilt. Cars assigned to other
subsidiaries survived into the 1950s but were gone by 1953.


"Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934
rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty
standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York
Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color."

Highly doubtful. I have never seen any "Lines" herald in any photo
from the 1940s on. These cars lasted in revenue service until 1959.


"A lot number that is almost legible is above the herald."

Lot numbers for these cars were 630-B (built 1935) and 638-B (built
1936).


Ben Hom


Larry Kline
 

Gene Green asked:
Would the paint scheme on the rebuilt car have survived from 1934 rebuilding all the way to scrapping? The picture shows pretty standard lettering with the PMcK&Y reporting marks and a New York Central Lines herald with the box car color as the background color. The before and after photos of these cars also appeared in the 1937 and several later CBCycs.

The reporting marks on most of these cars were changed from PMcK&Y to P&LE by 1940. All were changed by 1951. See the _rebuilds_ tab in the Excel speadsheet _USRA SS boxcars_ that I posted in the files section.

There is a Richard Hendrickson article about the P&LE rebuilds, and the Tichy kit for the P&LE rebuilds, in the July 1993 issue of Railmodel Journal. The prototype photo in that article and, other 1940s and 1950s photos that I have, all show the later _New York Central System_ herald.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Wow! Lots of good information! Thank you all for your time and
information. I appreciate it very much.

The Landmesser hot box list for 48-49-50 includes 68 PRR cars and 57
NYC cars including 6 PMcK&Y, 6 PM and 6 PLE which I take to mean P&LE.
It seems easier to find model matches for the PRR cars. The NYC and
subsidiaries appear to present more of a challenge. That is why I
asked all the questions.

Now I need to dig out a couple of magazine articles to which I have
been referred.

Gene Green
OitwTtoEP


benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
"It seems easier to find model matches for the PRR cars. The NYC and
subsidiaries appear to present more of a challenge. That is why I
asked all the questions."

I think the biggest reason behind the under-representation of NYC
boxcars on a typical layout (aside from SPFs with a tenuous grip on
reality) is a lack of understanding of the NYC boxcar fleet brought
on by the Byzantine lot number system. For example, almost everyone
on this list knows what a PRR Class X29 boxcar is, but how many of
you know off the top of your head what a NYC Lot 414-B boxcar looks
like? (Answer at bottom of page.)

For more online on understanding the NYC boxcar fleet, see:

Jeff English's handout from the 2000 Hunt Valley PM Meet on the
subject:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/nycsboxmain.html

Terry Link's breakdown of NYC freight car lots, including links to
equipment diagrams and photos:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm


Ben Hom

Answer: The most under-represented car on steam era layouts, Lot 414-
B is a 1000-car lot of NYC's 8 ft 7 in IH USRA-design steel boxcars,
NYC 180000-180999 (original), renumbered to NYC 101000-101999. If
you take all of the different IH of these cars as a group, the
numbers are on the same order as the PRR X29 fleet.


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Ben,
Thanks for those two very useful references. I'll print out both and
put them with my NYC material.
Gene Green

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Gene Green wrote:
"It seems easier to find model matches for the PRR cars. The NYC
and
subsidiaries appear to present more of a challenge. That is why I
asked all the questions."

I think the biggest reason behind the under-representation of NYC
boxcars on a typical layout (aside from SPFs with a tenuous grip on
reality) is a lack of understanding of the NYC boxcar fleet brought
on by the Byzantine lot number system. For example, almost
everyone
on this list knows what a PRR Class X29 boxcar is, but how many of
you know off the top of your head what a NYC Lot 414-B boxcar looks
like? (Answer at bottom of page.)

For more online on understanding the NYC boxcar fleet, see:

Jeff English's handout from the 2000 Hunt Valley PM Meet on the
subject:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/nycsboxmain.html

Terry Link's breakdown of NYC freight car lots, including links to
equipment diagrams and photos:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm


Ben Hom

Answer: The most under-represented car on steam era layouts, Lot
414-
B is a 1000-car lot of NYC's 8 ft 7 in IH USRA-design steel boxcars,
NYC 180000-180999 (original), renumbered to NYC 101000-101999. If
you take all of the different IH of these cars as a group, the
numbers are on the same order as the PRR X29 fleet.


Terry Link <trlink@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>

Answer: The most under-represented car on steam era layouts, Lot 414-
B is a 1000-car lot of NYC's 8 ft 7 in IH USRA-design steel boxcars,
NYC 180000-180999 (original), renumbered to NYC 101000-101999. If
you take all of the different IH of these cars as a group, the
numbers are on the same order as the PRR X29 fleet.

There was an announcement over 2 years ago that Sun Models was going to produce these cars. Anyone know what the status of these is ?


Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
www.canadasouthern.com