Date
1 - 20 of 22
36' Fowler/Dominion cars and "almosts"...
|
destron@...
I've been poking around trying to compile a list of 36' "Fowler" cars...
I've gotten to a stage now where I've got a short list of definitely Fowler/Dominion cars, and a longer list of possibles (of which I'm sure a number are actually DS cars, but can't tell that from the ORER info...) For the cars I'm sure are Fowlers or almost-those, the list is (* marks those I've got photos for): CN, various series CP, various series Algoma Central 3001-3020, 3051-3080 BAR 9000-9699*, 9800-10399 DW&P 400800-401549 Erie 86000-86999, 93000-93999* Fc. Mexicano 8100-8199* GTW 417500-420149*, 440300-440627 NC&StL 16100-16599*, 13500-15099, 15100-16099 NdeM 65700-65800* New York, Susquehanna & Western 1500-1563* Piedmont & Northern 12000-12074* Quebec Central 3100-3198* Quebec Rly, Light & Power 1016-1029, 1100-1109, 1110-1119 Roberval-Saguenay 536-537 SOO 12800-14298* Sydney & Louisburg 102-115 TEM 80000-80098, 80100-80198, 80200-80398, 80400-80498* TH&B 3000-3132, 4000-4301* WM 28002-28003 (ex-Erie) Now, the others I'm not certain of, but tend to assume so based on evidence of other Fowler series with the road (or with the parent/close relative road): BAR 8100-8599, 8700-8799 CNJ 14000-14499 (drawing seems to suggest it) CV 70731-71730, 71800-72049 DSS&A 11067-11569 NC&StL 24500-24599 SOO 28312+28456, 106600-107908, 108056-109908 M&StL 26000-26400 WAB 78000-78199 (read about these, are they 36' or 40'?) And these are the "just guessing" that might well be DS cars or other unrelated things: Ala., Tenn. & Northern 15001-15150 Ann Arbor 69000-69286 B&M 12138-12258, 12301-12392, 64682-68247, 68317, 68333-68390 Belt Rly of Chicago 802-850, 852-862 C&EI 37002-37748, 635-699 Canton RR 400-420 CIL 2000-3600 (or were these the Monon SU cars?) Clinchfield 3300-3833 Delaware & Northern 501-551 Detroit & Mackinac 2751 DMIR 5342-5390 FW&D 4400-5299 GM&O 43000-43299 (or were these SU cars?) Kentucky & Tennessee 304-306 L&A 1851-1859 L&N 4000-5049, 5350-5549, 5050-5199, 5300-5349, 5550-5999, 6001-6999, 7000-7182, 7300-7499, 9000-9799 Lake Superior & Ishpeming 2026 Manistique & Lake Superior 50-52 Manufacturers Junction 1040-1049 Minnesota, Dakota & Western 3004-3005 Mississippi Central 4000-4109 MKTT 170000-170228 MN&S 2501-2510 Montana, Wyoming & Southern 326-569 NdeM 44000-44016, 13503-13515 NdeT 2010-3595 NKP 97000-97999 NYO&W 9201-9907 Reading 2000-3999, 14500-14999, 15700-15999, 17500-18479, 18500-18699 SN 2101-2105, 2249 SPdeM 8304-8820 Tremont & Gulf 476, 666, 674 Wyandotte Terminal 38, 80, 82, 84 Frank Valoczy Vancouver, BC |
|
|
|
Mark P.
Frank,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Here's a photo of Erie 86554 to add to your collection. <http://replica.palni.edu/u?/winona,38> This was taken on the Winona [IN] Railroad in northern Indiana. Mark Plank ----- Original Message -----<big snip> Erie 86000-86999, 93000-93999*-- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com |
|
|
|
rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
M&StL 26000-26400These were DS cars with TR underframes and at least 3 different ends. There's a photo of one in an RP Cyc. Clark Propst |
|
|
|
Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., destron@... wrote:
sure a number are actually DS cars, but can't tell that from the ORER info...)Correct. Now, the others I'm not certain of, but tend to assume so based on DSS&A 11067-11569DS wood underframe cars. The South Shore had no single sheathed cars whatsoever. SOO 28312+28456, 106600-107908, 108056-10990828300-28498 (even) 30 ton DS wood automobile cars built by AC&F in 1910 106600-107908 (even) 30 ton DS boxcars built in 1905 - 06 for Wisconsin Central and renumbered; can't find the builder without the original WC numbers. 108056-109908 (even) 30 ton DS boxcar built in 1908 - 09 for WC. Dennis |
|
|
|
Michael Aufderheide
--- On Tue, 11/4/08, destron@... <destron@...> wrote:
<CIL 2000-3600 (or were these the Monon SU cars?)The SU cars were different cars, the 8000 series, retired by the end of 1940. The 36 ft howe truss cars were in three series due to rebuilding:Originally 2000-2899 blt Haskell & Barker 1912-14 (gone by 1942) 3149-3339 rebuilt from 2000 series 1927 (new ends) (gone by 1942)3400-3600 rebuilt from 2000 series 1927 (no reason why on diagram) (gone by 1949) Some were also converted to stock cars: 6200-6249.The boxcars are similar to the NC&StL 15100-16099 series (XM-17?)and there has been speculation that the Monon piggybacked an order with them. The Monon cars are 1" shorter at 8'-0" and have a cu ft of 2482 built in 1912-14. I don't know what the NC&StL build dates are for comparison. Regards,Mike Aufderheide [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
|
|
|
Charlie Vlk
I don't know how they fit into the taxonomy of "Fowler" cars, but comparing the Fowler CN cars with a CB&Q SM18 36' stock car they are very close structurally and architecturally, varying
only in spacing of slats and placards, door style, etc.. They share the nearly the same steel side truss arrangement and have almost identical top caps over the end braces. The Q cars may just have these similarities by accident, (they were built on underframes salvaged from early steel GS bottom dump gons) as the SM18s look like they evolved from earlier classes of composite and wood cars.... but the Fowlers look to me closer in appearance than other road's stock cars overall. Charlie Vlk |
|
|
|
destron@...
Thanks to everyone for the replies.
Does anyone know of photos of the Roberval-Saguenay, Quebec Rly Light & Power, DW&P and Sydney & Louisburg cars? Also, whether they were Fowlers or not, I'd be interested in locating photos of the Wyandotte Terminal cars in the list. Charlie, what number series were the SM18s? If they're that close to the CN Fowler stock cars, I think there could be a model there. Frank Valoczy Vancouver, BC I don't know how they fit into the taxonomy of "Fowler" cars, but Frank Valoczy Vancouver, BC |
|
|
|
al_brown03
BAR 9000-9699*, 9800-10399BAR 9838: NEB&W Guide, 96.2 edition, p133 BAR 10045: MRR 3/99 p139 (in "State of Maine" paint!) NC&StL 16100-16599*, 13500-15099, 15100-16099NC&StL 15454: "Focus on Freight Cars v 1", p46 NC&StL 15337: "Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual v1", p12 CNJ 14000-14499 (drawing seems to suggest it)CNJ 14087: Kline and Culotta, "Postwar Freight Car Fleet", p27 M&StL 26000-26400M&StL 26250: RP CYC 4 p5 Double-sheathed car with truss rods. Ann Arbor 69000-69286AA 69109: PRM 2 p7. Double sheathed. B&M 12138-12258, 12301-12392, 64682-68247, 68317, 68333-68390B&M 65387: Jones, "B&M: Forest River & Mountain", p152 B&M 65815: Nimke, "Rutland v7", p129 Double sheathed. CIL 2000-3600 (or were these the Monon SU cars?)CI&L 3516: MM 4/86 p57 More later. Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla. |
|
|
|
al_brown03
--- In STMFC@..., destron@... wrote:
CC&O 3350: Vintage Rails 5-6/99 p70. Double sheathed. L&N 4000-5049, 5350-5549, 5050-5199, 5300-5349, 5550-5999,L&N 4170: Johnson, "Through the Heart of the South", p145. L&N 5362: Vintage Rails 9-10/99 p48. L&N 7070: Nimke, "Connecticut River Railroads v 8", p87. All double sheathed. Mississippi Central 4000-4109MSC 4026: Trains 9/91 p33. Double-sheathed car with truss rods. -- HTH -- -- Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla. |
|
|
|
laramielarry <ostresh@...>
--- In STMFC@..., destron@... wrote:
cars... I've gotten to a stage now where I've got a short list of definitelysure a number are actually DS cars, but can't tell that from the ORERinfo...) marks those I've got photos for):parent/close relative road):other unrelated things:6999, 7000-7182, 7300-7499, 9000-979918699 SN 2101-2105, 2249Hi Frank The NEB&W web site lists the DW&P 400800-401549 series as double sheathed, built by Haskell & Barker in 1917. They were originally in the 30000-31498 series; the 1932 ORER lists cars in both series. Here are some additional cars that are Fowler, Fowler-like, or 36' single-sheathed: B&O 178500-178841, 190300-190398 (Former CI&W 18301-18650, 19201- 19300, Fowler, MM, Apr. 1986) BAR 10000-10139 (SS, Al Brown, STMFC #75622, 8/24/08) The Belt Railway Co. of Chicago 801-850 (SS, Jan. 1938 ORER, p. 486) CGW 27000-27998 (SS, AC&F photo of 27904, lot 7504) Central Railroad Company of Pennsylvania 14000-14499 (Fowler-like, NEB&W web site) ERIE 80995, 85000-85999 (SS or Fowler-like, MM, Apr. 1986) GA 18500-18674 (SS, Jan. 1938 ORER, p. 97) GT 100000-102999 (in 1932 ORER GTW, but with GT markings) (Fowler, Westerfield web site) IC 11000-11344 (SS, 1927 IC equipment list – personal communication from Ray Breyer) ITC 8000-8199 (Fowler or Fowler-like, NEB&W web site) Chicago South Shore & South Bend R.R., 1501-1505 (Fowler or Fowler- like, NEB&W web site) NH 70000-70999, 170000-170999 (Built as DS, but rebuilt as SS in 1927- 1928, Westerfield 10500 series) NKP 97000-97999 (Former TStL&W 7000-7999, Fowler, MM, Apr. 1986) Pittsburg, Shawmut and Northern 9900-9949 (SS, personal communication from Ray Breyer) SB&M 1254-2050 (SS, NEB&W web site) WABASH 75000-77199 (SS 36' 5", Jan. 1938 ORER, p. 444, AC&F photos of 75699 and 76200, lots 6615 and 8063) WABASH 77200-78199 (SS 36' 5", Jan. 1938 ORER, p. 444) Many of your hypothesized Fowler cars are DS: CV, AT&N, AA, Clinchfield, FW&D, L&N, MD&W, MSC, MKTT, NYO&W, RDG, and T&G. (Sources: NEB&W web site or STMFC posts.) Best wishes, Larry Ostresh, Laramie, Wyoming |
|
|
|
cinderandeight@...
I won't begin to claim any deep knowledge of Fowler cars, but I noted the
list was missing Pacific Great Eastern. Their ORER listing in Jan. 1948 says:"freight cars owned are only used in switching service with direct connections"; an earlier listing (Oct. 1937) states "cars are not employed in interstate commerce".. I have four shots of PGE stock cars (555, 562, 575 & 588), all of which look like Fowler cars. Rich Burg **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) |
|
|
|
destron@...
Yeah, of the stock cars I hadn't yet started - I was sticking with boxcars
for the moment - I have photos of Quebec Central, PGE and other Canadian Fowler stock cars, too. But you did remind me that there's the PGE cars, too. The January 1953 ORER listing only mentions 3510 and 3511, but I have a scan of a photo (I think from a CBC) of #3529 that clearly shows a Fowler. I don't know what the full number series was, as nothing is listed for the PGE in the April 1942. Frank Valoczy Vancouver, BC I won't begin to claim any deep knowledge of Fowler cars, but I noted the Frank Valoczy Vancouver, BC |
|
|
|
Charlie Vlk
If I recall correctly, the Fowler Patent was based on a slotted hole in the structural members which allowed boards to be
moved to "tighten up" the sheathing. Many cars (most of those listed?) may not be true Fowler Patent Cars but simply have the structural pattern ("sawtooth" pattern of framing/floor/sheathing) and other architecture of the Canadian Cars.... not to say that some US cars were not built under the patents. For our purposes the elongated screw holes are probably not a major concern.... hidden behind the screw heads as they are??? Charlie Vlk |
|
|
|
Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...> wrote:
in the structural members which allowed boards to be moved to "tighten up" the sheathing. Many cars (most of thoselisted?) may not be true Fowler Patent Cars but simply have the structural pattern ("sawtooth" pattern offraming/floor/sheathing) and other architecture of the Canadian Cars.... not to say that some US cars were not built under the patents.concern.... hidden behind the screw heads as they are??? I agree with Charlie on the name, which is why I like the "Dominion car" coined by Stafford Swain and Paul Clegg, but I realize that a lot of folks use the Dominion and Fowler names interchangeably. However, the "sawtooth" post, crossbearer, and sidesill arrangement is totally unrelated to the Dominion cars, and was possibly never built in Canada. All the Canadian Dominion cars had conventional channel section side sills, although early production did use a body bolster that extended a couple inches below the bottom of the side sills. This includes the 36' Dominion car copies built for the Soo line by AC&F in 1912. The "sawtooth" design seems to have been originated by AC&F, first used on an order of 40' cars built for the Frisco in 1913, and also an order for the Soo Line that same year. AC&F went on to use the design for several other roads, almost always on 40' cars. The Soo Line liked the design enough that when they changed their car buying allegiance to Haskell & Barker (later Pullman) they had B&B copy the underframe design, with some changes. AC&F got another bite at the apple in 1923, but those cars incorporated the same changes as the H&B cars. The CP eventually started converting some of their large fleet of 36" Dominion cars to stockcars. When the Soo needed new stockcars, they didn't have the large fleet of 36' steel frame boxcars to draw upon, so they had H&B shrink the 40' boxcar framing down to 36', and these cars bear a strong resemblance to the CP stockcars, except for the "sawtooth" side sill. But they are really more like second cousins, twice removed. All of the above has been developed from roster information; I have yet to find an article in the trade press of the day, or any company correspondence that explains who was the proponent of this side sill design, and what arguments they made in it's favor. If I could find that, I'd finally be able to write an article on the cars. Dennis |
|
|
|
Benjamin Scanlon
We have had another outbreak of Fowlerishness, or a bird of a slightly different feather, in the dominion of TT scale.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I am wondering if anyone can say whether a CPR Dominion 36' boxcar would be near enough to any of the cars pinpointed as being 36' s/s cars below? The Dominion casting has 12 crosswise roof ribs, the first and last ribs flush with each end, and what looks to be a 5-5-5 steel door (I assume replacing a wood original.) Aside from the ITC cars, which I believe existed in interchange service as late as 1961, were there other US owners of 36' cars who had them in interchange service through to the late 50s? From what I can work out, 36' cars in the US were one of those things that were very common in one decade, ie, 1942 but almost gone a decade later. I am told the NYSW ones made it to 1951. I am hoping someone might be able to offer some advice on the characteristics (door type, roof, if possible number of ribs) on some of these 36' s/s cars. regards, Benjamin Central Railroad Company of Pennsylvania 14000-14499 (Fowler-like, BAR 9000-9699*, 9800-10399 New York, Susquehanna & Western 1500-1563* BAR 8100-8599, 8700-8799 CV 70731-71730, 71800-72049 B&M 12138-12258, 12301-12392, 64682-68247, 68317, 68333-68390 C&EI 37002-37748, 635-699 GM&O 43000-43299 (or were these SU cars?) NKP 97000-97999 CGW 27000-27998 (SS, AC&F photo of 27904, lot 7504) NKP 97000-97999 (Former TStL&W 7000-7999, Fowler, MM, Apr. 1986) |
|
|
|
destorzek@...
The Soo Line (found alphabetized in steam era equipment registers under M) had one group of cars nearly identical to the Canadian cars, built in 1912. This was 750 cars, numbered 12800 - 14298, even numbers only. They were built with outside metal roofs having some sort of round seam caps, but in later years had roofs with twelve flat rectangular seam caps, counting those at the ends of the roof. Original trucks had Bettendorf T section sideframes, later changed to Andrews. It sounds like the only real difference is the door, the Soo cars were built with top supported wood doors which they retained throughout their entire lives. The January 1958 ORER shows 19 cars remaining; all were retired by January 1961
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
---In STMFC@..., <stmfc@...> wrote: We have had another outbreak of Fowlerishness, or a bird of a slightly different feather, in the dominion of TT scale. I am wondering if anyone can say whether a CPR Dominion 36' boxcar would be near enough to any of the cars pinpointed as being 36' s/s cars below? The Dominion casting has 12 crosswise roof ribs, the first and last ribs flush with each end, and what looks to be a 5-5-5 steel door (I assume replacing a wood original.) Aside from the ITC cars, which I believe existed in interchange service as late as 1961, were there other US owners of 36' cars who had them in interchange service through to the late 50s? From what I can work out, 36' cars in the US were one of those things that were very common in one decade, ie, 1942 but almost gone a decade later. I am told the NYSW ones made it to 1951. I am hoping someone might be able to offer some advice on the characteristics (door type, roof, if possible number of ribs) on some of these 36' s/s cars. regards, Benjamin > Central Railroad Company of Pennsylvania 14000-14499 (Fowler-like, |
|
|
|
Benjamin Scanlon
Hullo Dennis
Thank you for that ... a good excuse to have a SOO car, always a nice thing ... and a composite sided granger car wouldn't look out of place. The only Eastern s/s cars I could dig up (I found the xls of short boxcars in the files) were 14 NYS&W ones, which according to the spreadsheet were still around in 1959. This puzzles me as I thought theirs had been written off in 1951. There were other Eastern 'short' boxcars (not necessarily 36') of the DL&W, D&H and RDG, but all were all double sheathed. Cheers Ben |
|
|
|
New Haven had at least a couple in the late 50's early 60's but they were in company service -- NH W1405, NH T80. Tim O' The Soo Line (found alphabetized in steam era equipment registers under M) had one group of cars nearly identical to the Canadian cars, built in 1912. This was 750 cars, numbered 12800 - 14298, even numbers only. They were built with outside metal roofs having some sort of round seam caps, but in later years had roofs with twelve flat rectangular seam caps, counting those at the ends of the roof. Original trucks had Bettendorf T section sideframes, later changed to Andrews. It sounds like the only real difference is the door, the Soo cars were built with top supported wood doors which they retained throughout their entire lives. The January 1958 ORER shows 19 cars remaining; all were retired by January 1961 |
|
|
|
Bill Welch
The L&N cars on your list are double-sheathed. Bill Welch ---In stmfc@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote: New Haven had at least a couple in the late 50's early 60's but they were in company service -- NH W1405, NH T80. Tim O' The Soo Line (found alphabetized in steam era equipment registers under M) had one group of cars nearly identical to the Canadian cars, built in 1912. This was 750 cars, numbered 12800 - 14298, even numbers only. They were built with outside metal roofs having some sort of round seam caps, but in later years had roofs with twelve flat rectangular seam caps, counting those at the ends of the roof. Original trucks had Bettendorf T section sideframes, later changed to Andrews. It sounds like the only real difference is the door, the Soo cars were built with top supported wood doors which they retained throughout their entire lives. The January 1958 ORER shows 19 cars remaining; all were retired by January 1961 |
|
|
|
Michael Aufderheide
The CIL 2000-3600 cars were 36' howe truss cars built in 1912, some were rebuilt with new center sills and ends in the twenties. The original series was numberexd 2000-2899, when rebuilt they were numbered 3150-3599, The diagram for these cars is marked "Void 10/26/48" Two of these cars can be seen in on of the Delano wartime Proviso photos. The SU (double sheathed) cars you asked about were numbered 8000-8499 and were all scrapped in 1940-41.
Regards,
Mike Aufderheide
|
|
|