Topics

Polymer Corp., Ltd / Polysar tank cars

Frank Valoczy <destron@...>
 

In looking through old annual reports of the Polymer Corporation, Ltd.
of Sarnia, Ontario, I found a photo of a UTLX tank car, #25100,
wearing Polymer Corp.'s "Polysar" logo. I've scanned it and uploaded
to the files section, as "polysar4.png" in the "Frank's Randomness"
folder.

Does anyone happen to have information on this? When did the lease
start (the date visible on the car is 1950), and how many cars were
leased? Were they all in the same series?

A related question: Polymer Corp. had a number of its own tank cars
from 1946 till the 60s, all TPI ICC 105A300W (I assume for
transporting butadiene and such monomers that require transportation
under pressure to keep it liquid). They were numbered 143, 146, 170,
171, 181 and 183. Does anyone know where I might find information on
or photos of these cars?

Thanks.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Frank,

According to the 1952 roster of UTLX tank cars, 25000 - 25100 were 10,000 gallon X-3 tank cars with insulation and jacketing. They were lined with latex. My suspicion would be that these would have been renumbered from earlier cars, probably when the special lining was provided. So that could have been in 1950, as the reweigh date shows. Whether all 100 cars were leased by and lettered for Polysar, is not known.

I hope that this is helpful. Thanks for sharing the photo!

Happy Thanksgiving.

Steve Hile

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Valoczy
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 4:55 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Polymer Corp., Ltd / Polysar tank cars



In looking through old annual reports of the Polymer Corporation, Ltd.
of Sarnia, Ontario, I found a photo of a UTLX tank car, #25100,
wearing Polymer Corp.'s "Polysar" logo. I've scanned it and uploaded
to the files section, as "polysar4.png" in the "Frank's Randomness"
folder.

Does anyone happen to have information on this? When did the lease
start (the date visible on the car is 1950), and how many cars were
leased? Were they all in the same series?

A related question: Polymer Corp. had a number of its own tank cars
from 1946 till the 60s, all TPI ICC 105A300W (I assume for
transporting butadiene and such monomers that require transportation
under pressure to keep it liquid). They were numbered 143, 146, 170,
171, 181 and 183. Does anyone know where I might find information on
or photos of these cars?

Thanks.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Steve Hile wrote:
According to the 1952 roster of UTLX tank cars, 25000 - 25100 were 10,000 gallon X-3 tank cars with insulation and jacketing. They were lined with latex.
Normally, insulated and jacketed but non-pressure cars were ICC 104 and UTLX X-4. Was that not the case for these cars?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 27, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Steve Hile wrote:
According to the 1952 roster of UTLX tank cars, 25000 - 25100 were
10,000 gallon X-3 tank cars with insulation and jacketing. They were
lined with latex.
Normally, insulated and jacketed but non-pressure cars were ICC
104 and UTLX X-4. Was that not the case for these cars?








True, but cars originally built as non-insulated ICC-103s which later
had insulation and jacketing applied often retained their ICC-103
designation. I have numerous photos if insulated cars stenciled
ICC-103 (or, if built in the 1920s, ARA III).

Richard Hendrickson

destron@...
 

Steve,

Thanks for that. I'm curious, though: latex lining? Hearing from someone
who worked for the C&O and did extensive switching work at the Polymer
Corp. plant at Sarnia, they moved a lot of latices in tank cars (which I
assume would have been cars like this, and the photo seems to suggest
that, too; it wouldn't have been their own PCLX cars, since those were
105s and pressurized, and my best guess is, as I mentioned, that they were
used for butadiene and such things). Would the latex lining not react
somehow with the latex then loaded into the tank? Do you have information
on the specifications of such a latex lining?

On a tangent, from the above-mentioned ex-C&O employee I got some info
about the PCLX tank cars: he said they seemed 'different' from other tank
cars, were short (he guesses about 38' in length) and were a medium blue
colour. Unfortunately, he didn't get any photos, though he mentioned that
they had appeared to have been sitting disused for quite a while (rusty
wheels).

Barring a fluke discovery of a photo of one of the PCLX tank cars, I'm not
sure I'll ever get anything more detailed about them. So I'm curious as to
what these cars may have looked like, or what they were similar to: what
other tank car series were there that were ICC 105, about 38' in length?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

According to the 1952 roster of UTLX tank cars, 25000 - 25100 were 10,000
gallon X-3 tank cars with insulation and jacketing. They were lined with
latex. My suspicion would be that these would have been renumbered from
earlier cars, probably when the special lining was provided. So that
could have been in 1950, as the reweigh date shows. Whether all 100 cars
were leased by and lettered for Polysar, is not known.

I hope that this is helpful. Thanks for sharing the photo!

Happy Thanksgiving.

Steve Hile
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Valoczy
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 4:55 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Polymer Corp., Ltd / Polysar tank cars



In looking through old annual reports of the Polymer Corporation, Ltd.
of Sarnia, Ontario, I found a photo of a UTLX tank car, #25100,
wearing Polymer Corp.'s "Polysar" logo. I've scanned it and uploaded
to the files section, as "polysar4.png" in the "Frank's Randomness"
folder.

Does anyone happen to have information on this? When did the lease
start (the date visible on the car is 1950), and how many cars were
leased? Were they all in the same series?

A related question: Polymer Corp. had a number of its own tank cars
from 1946 till the 60s, all TPI ICC 105A300W (I assume for
transporting butadiene and such monomers that require transportation
under pressure to keep it liquid). They were numbered 143, 146, 170,
171, 181 and 183. Does anyone know where I might find information on
or photos of these cars?

Thanks.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC








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Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
. . . they moved a lot of latices in tank cars (which I assume would have been cars like this . . .
I assume this plural is formed by false analogy with "index, indices?" <g>

Would the latex lining not react somehow with the latex then loaded into the tank?
The statement of "latex lining" could have meant "latex-resistant lining."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

destron@...
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
. . . they moved a lot of latices in tank cars (which I assume would
have been cars like this . . .
I assume this plural is formed by false analogy with "index,
indices?" <g>
This is the plural I have fairly consistently found in the relevant
technical literature that I have consulted. As to its origin, I don't
know, I've worked mostly with Finno-Ugric languages, not Romance and
Germanic ones. ;) (Interestingly enough, the spellchecker says
"Finno-Ugric" is misspelt, but "latices" is not.)


Would the latex lining not react somehow with the latex then loaded
into the tank?
The statement of "latex lining" could have meant
"latex-resistant lining."
That would make sense. What would be used for such a lining? I'd guess not
glass, but perhaps some particular plastic?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: feddersenmark


I assume your need to constantly make snide remarks is compensation
for manly deficiencies.

Completely uncalled for. And against list rules. 1) No slanders against other members. 2) no
unsigned messages (unless your name appears in the "From" line, as mine does.

A apology is called for.

SGL

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:

Would the latex lining not react somehow with the latex then loaded
into the tank?
The statement of "latex lining" could have meant
"latex-resistant lining."

Tony Thompson, Editor
No, Tony, there is no way that the term "Latex Lining" could possibly be construed to mean "Latex
resistant lining." If it meant that, it would SAY: "Latex Resistant Lining."

And it's hard to think of anything made of latex that would be corrosive and dangerous to put into
an unlined tank car. But then, you're the materials guy, and you have a better chance of knowing
than I do . . .

SGL

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Mark Feddersen wrote:

"I assume your need to constantly make snide remarks is compensation
for manly deficiencies."

As Schuyler noted, this remark is blatantly in violation of the rules. The concept and philosophy of the STMFC is to allow members to freely make comments in opposition to another member's view. That does not mean, however, that the opposing view need be accepted and views in opposition to it are welcome. At no time, however, may personal attacks be levied at any member. I would appreciate it if the members will simply move on...ignoring this comment...which will be removed from the group's archives. Normally I don't comment about a rule violation requiring a jail sentence but, in this case, the temptation to reply to the message requires a public comment.

The sound you might have heard is the sound of the closing of a door in the new wing of Moderate Jail.

My, my...lot of people in the new wing. One guy asked me if Notre Dame was still number one.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner and Head Judge

destron@...
 

And it's hard to think of anything made of latex that would be corrosive
and dangerous to put into
an unlined tank car. But then, you're the materials guy, and you have a
better chance of knowing
than I do . . .
If it'd make a difference... the latices in question would probably be
things like unfinished (i.e., uncoagulated) styrene-butadiene or other
synthetic rubbers. The liquid output after the ingredients (styrene and
butadiene for SB rubber, aka GR-S or Buna-S) are co-polymerized (using
other chemicals as catalysts, emulsifiers and retardants) is called a
latex; the latex is then fed into another tank, where it's mixed with
brine and sulphuric acid to make it coagulate into little flakes of
solidified rubber that's then baled and shipped off in 40lb bales (likely
the contents of the UP boxcar I saw in another photo of the Polymer Corp.
plant).

Now, whether this latex described above would be corrosive or otherwise
dangerous to put into an unlined tank car, I don't know... perhaps someone
who understands polymer chemistry a bit more could answer that.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Steve and Barb Hile
 

The entry in the UTLX listing is very cryptic, consisting of

INSULATED
LATEX

at the top of the column with the car numbers. There are a number of car groups with INSULATED, but this series is the only one with LATEX.

Steve Hile

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Polymer Corp., Ltd / Polysar tank cars


Frank Valoczy wrote:
> . . . they moved a lot of latices in tank cars (which I assume would
> have been cars like this . . .

I assume this plural is formed by false analogy with "index,
indices?" <g>

> Would the latex lining not react somehow with the latex then loaded
> into the tank?

The statement of "latex lining" could have meant
"latex-resistant lining."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

destron@...
 

Steve,

My guess, to judge from both what the earlier-mentioned C&O employee and
the hints in the photograph suggest, is that the meaning of the entry is
that the car is insulated, and used for transporting latex. It doesn't
mention what sort of insulation it is? I could see it being some sort of
thermal insulation to prevent extremes of temperature?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

The entry in the UTLX listing is very cryptic, consisting of

INSULATED
LATEX

at the top of the column with the car numbers. There are a number of car
groups with INSULATED, but this series is the only one with LATEX.

Steve Hile
----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Polymer Corp., Ltd / Polysar tank cars


Frank Valoczy wrote:
> . . . they moved a lot of latices in tank cars (which I assume would
> have been cars like this . . .

I assume this plural is formed by false analogy with "index,
indices?" <g>

> Would the latex lining not react somehow with the latex then loaded
> into the tank?

The statement of "latex lining" could have meant
"latex-resistant lining."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history








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Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

al_brown03
 

I should preface this by saying I'm a small-molecule organic chemist
not a polymer chemist. But a colleague of mine *is* a polymer chemist
& I'll check this w/him. But, he's a Dean & subject to capture by
bureaucrats, so no promises on timing.

That said: the metal inside of an un-lined tank car is a reducing
environment, chemically; which can cause polymerization.
(Polymerization can be caused by reducing agents, oxidizing agents,
acids, free radicals: almost anything reactive.) I'm not sure, but I
suspect the word "latex" may be used two different ways: to mean a
latex polymer, like latex gloves, or to mean a latex "living" polymer
like what Mr. Valoczy describes. But at a quick guess, if one lined a
tank car with a latex polymer, I don't think it would react with
a "living" latex, whereas a metal tank might.

FWIW, HTH --

-- Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., destron@... wrote:



And it's hard to think of anything made of latex that would be
corrosive and dangerous to put into an unlined tank car. But then,
you're the materials guy, and you have a better chance of knowing
than I do . . .

If it'd make a difference... the latices in question would probably
be things like unfinished (i.e., uncoagulated) styrene-butadiene or
other synthetic rubbers. The liquid output after the ingredients
(styrene and butadiene for SB rubber, aka GR-S or Buna-S) are co-
polymerized (using other chemicals as catalysts, emulsifiers and
retardants) is called a latex; the latex is then fed into another
tank, where it's mixed with brine and sulphuric acid to make it
coagulate into little flakes of solidified rubber that's then baled
and shipped off in 40lb bales (likely the contents of the UP boxcar
I saw in another photo of the Polymer Corp. plant).

Now, whether this latex described above would be corrosive or
otherwise dangerous to put into an unlined tank car, I don't
know... perhaps someone who understands polymer chemistry a bit
more could answer that.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Guyz,
 
         Now this discussion is way over my head.  The only thing I know is advertised as 'living latex' is in the ladies section of the store. Now, where did the tank car info get lost?
It sounded like a very interesting car for industry on a model RR.
 
Fred Freitas

--- On Fri, 11/28/08, al_brown03 <abrown@...> wrote:

From: al_brown03 <abrown@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Polymer Corp., Ltd / Polysar tank cars
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 9:45 PM






I should preface this by saying I'm a small-molecule organic chemist
not a polymer chemist. But a colleague of mine *is* a polymer chemist
& I'll check this w/him. But, he's a Dean & subject to capture by
bureaucrats, so no promises on timing.

That said: the metal inside of an un-lined tank car is a reducing
environment, chemically; which can cause polymerization.
(Polymerization can be caused by reducing agents, oxidizing agents,
acids, free radicals: almost anything reactive.) I'm not sure, but I
suspect the word "latex" may be used two different ways: to mean a
latex polymer, like latex gloves, or to mean a latex "living" polymer
like what Mr. Valoczy describes. But at a quick guess, if one lined a
tank car with a latex polymer, I don't think it would react with
a "living" latex, whereas a metal tank might.

FWIW, HTH --

-- Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, destron@... wrote:



And it's hard to think of anything made of latex that would be
corrosive and dangerous to put into an unlined tank car. But then,
you're the materials guy, and you have a better chance of knowing
than I do . . .

If it'd make a difference.. . the latices in question would probably
be things like unfinished (i.e., uncoagulated) styrene-butadiene or
other synthetic rubbers. The liquid output after the ingredients
(styrene and butadiene for SB rubber, aka GR-S or Buna-S) are co-
polymerized (using other chemicals as catalysts, emulsifiers and
retardants) is called a latex; the latex is then fed into another
tank, where it's mixed with brine and sulphuric acid to make it
coagulate into little flakes of solidified rubber that's then baled
and shipped off in 40lb bales (likely the contents of the UP boxcar
I saw in another photo of the Polymer Corp. plant).

Now, whether this latex described above would be corrosive or
otherwise dangerous to put into an unlined tank car, I don't
know... perhaps someone who understands polymer chemistry a bit
more could answer that.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC














[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

al_brown03
 

We were figuring out whether latex must be shipped in lined tank
cars ... I don't know why I tried to answer based on chemistry when
Kaminski's tank car book was handy. It says (p 252) latex may be
shipped in an ICC 103-W or 203-W car, i.e. lining isn't needed.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...> wrote:

Guyz,
 
         Now this discussion is way over my head.  The only thing I
know is advertised as 'living latex' is in the ladies section of the
store. Now, where did the tank car info get lost?
It sounded like a very interesting car for industry on a model RR.
 
Fred Freitas

--- On Fri, 11/28/08, al_brown03 <abrown@...> wrote:

From: al_brown03 <abrown@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Polymer Corp., Ltd / Polysar tank cars
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 9:45 PM






I should preface this by saying I'm a small-molecule organic
chemist
not a polymer chemist. But a colleague of mine *is* a polymer
chemist
& I'll check this w/him. But, he's a Dean & subject to capture by
bureaucrats, so no promises on timing.

That said: the metal inside of an un-lined tank car is a reducing
environment, chemically; which can cause polymerization.
(Polymerization can be caused by reducing agents, oxidizing agents,
acids, free radicals: almost anything reactive.) I'm not sure, but
I
suspect the word "latex" may be used two different ways: to mean a
latex polymer, like latex gloves, or to mean a latex "living"
polymer
like what Mr. Valoczy describes. But at a quick guess, if one lined
a
tank car with a latex polymer, I don't think it would react with
a "living" latex, whereas a metal tank might.

FWIW, HTH --

-- Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, destron@ wrote:



And it's hard to think of anything made of latex that would be
corrosive and dangerous to put into an unlined tank car. But
then,
you're the materials guy, and you have a better chance of knowing
than I do . . .

If it'd make a difference.. . the latices in question would
probably
be things like unfinished (i.e., uncoagulated) styrene-butadiene
or
other synthetic rubbers. The liquid output after the ingredients
(styrene and butadiene for SB rubber, aka GR-S or Buna-S) are co-
polymerized (using other chemicals as catalysts, emulsifiers and
retardants) is called a latex; the latex is then fed into another
tank, where it's mixed with brine and sulphuric acid to make it
coagulate into little flakes of solidified rubber that's then
baled
and shipped off in 40lb bales (likely the contents of the UP
boxcar
I saw in another photo of the Polymer Corp. plant).

Now, whether this latex described above would be corrosive or
otherwise dangerous to put into an unlined tank car, I don't
know... perhaps someone who understands polymer chemistry a bit
more could answer that.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC














[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]