Dean:

For larger diameter pipe (24 - 36") I have used 1/4" or 3/8" copper tubing.
Cut it to length then use a vertical boring machine or a drill press to thin
the walls to a depth of 1/4 inch or so. This give a visually thin wall but
maintains the overall integrity of the pipe. Paint to match the color of the
company manufacturing the pipe -- US steel black, J&L steel tuscan, Armco
steel dk blue, anything from American Bridge was orange although that was
mostly structural steel for bridges. Not sure the correct color for Bethlehem
steel pipe. Also adds some weight to the gon. Brass or aluminum tubing would
work just as well.

Rich Orr

I've got two pending resin orders, but I've noticed that I've got a
lot of empty gons. The W&LE served the South Lorain pipe works, so
I've decided to model a bunch of pipe loads. I can't afford to buy
commercial loads for all these without having to reduce my resin
order, so...
Are there any especially good sources for "pipe"? I've got a bunch of
coffee stirrers, of course, but I don't know if there is something
better. (Mine are a scale 35' 8" or so, 10" approx. OD) I seem to
remember seeing something about someone who found a source of
especially nice stirrers, but don't remember the source.
The pipe load from Life-Like (on sale at Walthers) looks too
thick-walled for my tastes (and a little too "plastic-ey").

Dean Payne

Have you looked at plain ol' drinking straws? These should be quite a bit bigger than stirrers and with more realistic thinwall. You can even get the larger ones (for milkshakes) from McDonalds.

KL

I agree with the straws.  Put lead shot in the bottom ones with paper stuffed 1/2 inch from the end to keep them in.  If  you have a blaster, etch them B4 painting. If not, It will still work without. Use some small wood for cribage, thread for banding. Remember, This gives us a reason to go get junk food!!  Happy Drinking!!!!  Dennis

The Walthers pipe load should look thick as it is supposed to be concrete
pipe. The side wall thickness should be around 6"

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

SIX inches? How large a diameter is it? Most concrete pipe I've seen at the size of say 30"
diameter, is around 2-2.5" wall.

SGL

Dean Payne wrote:

Are there any especially good sources for "pipe"? I've got a bunch of coffee stirrers, of course, but I don't know if there is something better. (Mine are a scale 35' 8" or so, 10" approx. OD)

That's a good size for small pipe. Larger pipe is well represented by drinking straws, especially the oversize ones used for milkshakes. As already mentioned, McDonalds has good ones. I've used them with grimy black paint and they look fine to represent linepipe.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I'm with you, Rich, but i think there is an easier way than
finding either a vertical boring machine or even a drill press to
reduce the thickenss of the wall to use this sort of material to
depict 1/87th scale pipe. With styrene products this is a very easy
fix, nearly the same with aluminum and only a little less so with
copper, depending on how it is alloyed. Deburring tools can be
purchased quite inexpensively and can be used to ream out the inside
of the ends of whichever material you might use for HO scale pipe.
The sharper the angle of the deburring tool, the better it will work
for this purpose. Once this is done and the "pipe" is painted in
realistic colors one will have to look hard to realize the walls of
the "pipe" are thicker than they appear to be at their ends.

I have a couple of these deburrers on my reloading bench to
be certain the inside of rifle cases are properly deburred and
chamfered before reloading them. Bullets seat a lot easier in cases
that have been trimmed to the proper length only after the inside of
their necks have been chamfered with such a tool. They are a hand
tool that is simple to use. Any machinist can help you locate one
or they can be found under the "reloading tools" part of
eBay's "Sporting" section, often for very little money.

Hope this helps,
Don Valentine



--- In STMFC@..., SUVCWORR@... wrote:

Dean:

For larger diameter pipe (24 - 36") I have used 1/4" or 3/8"

copper tubing.

Cut it to length then use a vertical boring machine or a drill

press to thin

the walls to a depth of 1/4 inch or so. This give a visually thin

wall but

maintains the overall integrity of the pipe. Paint to match the

color of the

company manufacturing the pipe -- US steel black, J&L steel

tuscan, Armco

steel dk blue, anything from American Bridge was orange although

that was

mostly structural steel for bridges. Not sure the correct color

for Bethlehem

steel pipe. Also adds some weight to the gon. Brass or aluminum

tubing would

work just as well.

Rich Orr

In a message dated 11/27/2008 11:02:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
1payne1@... writes:

I've got two pending resin orders, but I've noticed that I've got a
lot of empty gons. The W&LE served the South Lorain pipe works, so
I've decided to model a bunch of pipe loads. I can't afford to

buy

commercial loads for all these without having to reduce my resin
order, so...
Are there any especially good sources for "pipe"? I've got a

bunch of

coffee stirrers, of course, but I don't know if there is something
better. (Mine are a scale 35' 8" or so, 10" approx. OD) I seem to
remember seeing something about someone who found a source of
especially nice stirrers, but don't remember the source.
The pipe load from Life-Like (on sale at Walthers) looks too
thick-walled for my tastes (and a little too "plastic-ey").

Dean Payne


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with Kurt's suggestion of drinking straws.

While many of the straws on the market are oval shaped I finally found some
at a local coffee shop that were truly round (or so close to it that I
couldn't tell the difference.

They are 8" long x 200 thou dia with a wall thickness of 6 thou, so in HO
about 58' long x 1.5' dia.

The owner gave me two handfuls and that will do for all the pipe loads I'm
ever likely to need.

To "tie them down", I've bought some 1/64 black chart tape from a local art
supply house, to replicate the steel banding used.

Apart from the chart tape my cost was nil.

Cheers

Dave.

--- In STMFC@..., Dennis Williams <pennsy6200@...> wrote:

<snip> If  you have a blaster, etch them B4 painting.

Etching is a very good idea. I made a pipe load with plastic straws
and painted the load with Floquil (old formula) with no etching.
Eventually the paint started flaking off even though the load wasn't
being handled.

Gene Green

Hi



I have found black straws here in Sweden. The straight part is about 45
scale feet. Takes away all the problems with painting. You just have to
airbrush them with a dull coat. I would be surprised if you couldn’t find
them in US as well. Try to find them in shops which sell Halloween party
items.





Roland Levin

Vällingby, Sweden

hem.bredband.net/drgw







Från: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] För Gene Green
Skickat: den 29 november 2008 16:35
Till: STMFC@...
Ämne: [STMFC] Re: Pipe loads on the cheap



--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Dennis
Williams <pennsy6200@...> wrote:

<snip> If you have a blaster, etch them B4 painting.

Etching is a very good idea. I made a pipe load with plastic straws
and painted the load with Floquil (old formula) with no etching.
Eventually the paint started flaking off even though the load wasn't
being handled.

Gene Green





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

The pipe load from Life-Like (on sale at Walthers) looks too
thick-walled for my tastes (and a little too "plastic-ey").

The Walthers pipe load should look thick as it is supposed to
be concrete pipe. The side wall thickness should be around 6"

SIX inches? How large a diameter is it? Most concrete pipe
I've seen at the size of say 30" diameter, is around 2-2.5"
wall.

Is this the pipe load we are discussing?
Life-Like Products - SceneMaster Flat Car Loads
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/433-1510

It is described as "steel pipe," and I agree that the walls are way
too thick for steel or iron pipe. And the pipes are too long to
represent precast concrete pipe.

The wall thickness of precast concrete pipe varies with the load it
is specified for, but as a general rule the wall thickness (in
inches) is about one greater than the pipe diameter (in feet). So a
2-foot diameter concrete pipe would have a 3" wall thickness, and a
6-foot diameter concrete pipe would have a 7" wall thickness.
Concrete pipes are usually 8 or 12 feet long.

Steel or iron pipe would have wall thickness measured in the
fractions of an inch. Lengths would vary from 20 feet (cast iron
pipe) up to 60 feet (steel pipe).

____
Mark Mathu
Whitefish Bay, Wis.
civil engineer

--- In STMFC@..., "Mark Mathu" <mark@...> wrote:

It is described as "steel pipe," and I agree that the walls are way
too thick for steel or iron pipe. And the pipes are too long to
represent precast concrete pipe.

The wall thickness of precast concrete pipe varies with the load it
is specified for, but as a general rule the wall thickness (in
inches) is about one greater than the pipe diameter (in feet). So a
2-foot diameter concrete pipe would have a 3" wall thickness, and a
6-foot diameter concrete pipe would have a 7" wall thickness.
Concrete pipes are usually 8 or 12 feet long.

Steel or iron pipe would have wall thickness measured in the
fractions of an inch. Lengths would vary from 20 feet (cast iron
pipe) up to 60 feet (steel pipe).

Don't most of these construction pipes have a bell on one end?

Ed

Are you thinking of a saddle clamp? These are primarily used to repair
breaks without removing the line.

Rich Orr

Not necessarily. Both steel pipe and concrete pipe can be joined for some non-pressure uses (drain
lines, for instance) with a band which is drawn tight around the pipe. There is a specific
terminology for this, but I have forgotten it, if I ever knew it to begin with.

SGL

I've heard that term, yes. But it doesn't ring right on my ear, so I think there is probably
another term. "Pressure fitting?" "Pressure connector?" Something like that.

SGL

Are you thinking of a saddle clamp? These are primarily used to repair
breaks without removing the line.

Rich Orr

In a message dated 12/1/2008 9:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
schuyler.larrabee@... <mailto:schuyler.larrabee%40verizon.net> writes:

Not necessarily. Both steel pipe and concrete pipe can be joined for some
non-pressure uses (drain
lines, for instance) with a band which is drawn tight around the pipe.
There is a specific
terminology for this, but I have forgotten it, if I ever knew it to begin
with.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@...

<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
ed_mines

Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 1:30 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Pipe loads on the cheap

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>

,

"Mark
Mathu" <mark@...> wrote:

It is described as "steel pipe," and I agree that the walls are way
too thick for steel or iron pipe. And the pipes are too long to
represent precast concrete pipe.

The wall thickness of precast concrete pipe varies with the load it
is specified for, but as a general rule the wall thickness (in
inches) is about one greater than the pipe diameter (in feet). So a
2-foot diameter concrete pipe would have a 3" wall thickness, and a
6-foot diameter concrete pipe would have a 7" wall thickness.
Concrete pipes are usually 8 or 12 feet long.

Steel or iron pipe would have wall thickness measured in the
fractions of an inch. Lengths would vary from 20 feet (cast iron
pipe) up to 60 feet (steel pipe).

Don't most of these construction pipes have a bell on one end?

Ed

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In discussing pipe types and modeling them, we need to keep a couple of
things in mind. First, which types of pipe were not manufactured locally and
thus might be shipped by rail? Iron pipe might be one type but concrete and
clay pipe might not. Second, we need to remember that we are talking about
pipe types from 60 years ago, not what is currently being used.

When I started working in a municipal engineering department in the
mid-1960s, vitrified clay pipe (VCP) was used for sanitary sewers and
probably had been for decades since it is resistant to acids and sewage. Now
days, in our area, VCP has been replaced for new installations by plastic
pipe since it is faster to install. VCP has a bell on one end with a rubber
gasket but I wonder if it was ever shipped by rail. If so, it is generally
in smaller diameters (12" is a very big sanitary sewer with 8" more typical)
and is red in color since it is made from clay. Interestingly, the Yosemite
Valley Railroad (built in 1906) had a lot of VCP storm water culverts, some
of which are still in place (but out of service <g>). These latter pipes
would have diameters from 12" to 24".

Storm water pipes are typically reinforced concrete pipe (RCP) but I'm not
sure how long RCP has been available...probably a long time. Again, I'm not
sure if it was shipped by rail. This pipe is still used and is joined via
"T&G" joints (meaning that there was no bell and one end has a female joint
with a reduced diameter on the outside of the joint area and the other end a
male joint) rather than a bell joint since leakage isn't a serious problem.
As the pipe is laid, these joints are mortared to minimize leakage. These
pipes are heavy and thus not that long. Larger diameter pipes are shorter
than smaller diameter pipes.

When I started working, water lines were laid in our area with
asbestos-cement pipe (ACP) but plastic is now used for obvious reasons. As I
recall, ACP is joined with via a "T&G" joint supplemented with a rubber
gasket. ACP was popular in areas where metallic pipes were subject to
external corrosion such as our Bay Area with salt water intrusion. Use of AC
pipe ceased due to health concerns associated with the mining, installation,
removal, and disposal of asbestos products. I guess that, due to the
location of asbestos mines vs. manufacturing plants, ACP might be shipped
via rail. ACP is typically smaller, 6-12" in diameter and white in color
with an asbestos texture. But ACP would have been widely used in the era
that we are modeling.

Natural gas lines in our area have been long been steel which is
field-welded together; there is no bell on these pipes since they were
welded together. Long distance transmission lines may be 30" or more in
diameter. There is no question that this pipe was transported by rail. We
also have a gasoline transmission line through our city which is also steel
(8" in diameter). It was originally used to transport jet fuel from a Shell
refinery to the San Jose Airport but was later used by transport gases used
in the high-tech industry but that was built outside our era.

In California, long-distance transportation of water is typical all over the
state. The early lines, such as the line from near Yosemite to serve San
Francisco, was riveted steel (60" and 76" in diameter) and without rereading
Ted Wurm's book on this construction project and its railroad, I'm not sure
that it was transported by rail but I can imagine that it was.

Ductile iron pipe is rarely used in our area due to salt intrusion below
grade. But it is extremely strong and has its advantages. It would have been
logically shipped via rail. This pipe has uses a bell joint.

One pipe type that hasn't been mentioned is galvanized corrugated metal pipe
(CMP) which is still used for storm water culverts. Because of the
specialized manufacturing processes required, these might have been shipped
by rail. Culverts range from 12" in diameter to 48" or more. Again, because
they are used for storm drain systems and water leakage isn't a problem, the
sections are joined with a collar as I recall.

In general, water line joints need to be pressure-proof and thus must have
strong joints requiring both a physical connection and a gasket. Sanitary
sewers also must not leak but aren't under pressure and bell joints work
okay. Storm drain systems don't need to be completely leak proof.

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Jack Burgess wrote:

When I started working in a municipal engineering department in the mid-1960s, vitrified clay pipe (VCP) was used for sanitary sewers and probably had been for decades since it is resistant to acids and sewage . . . VCP has a bell on one end with a rubber gasket but I wonder if it was ever shipped by rail.

There exist photos, I think at CSRM, of this pipe loaded in box cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:From: Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...>Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Pipe loads on the cheapTo: STMFC@...: Monday, December 1, 2008, 6:32 PMNot necessarily. Both steel pipe and concrete pipe can be joined for some non-pressure uses (drain lines, for instance) with a band which is drawn tight around the pipe. There is a specific terminology for this, but I have forgotten it, if I ever knew it to begin with. SGLSchuyler;Trade name for those connections is a fernco. Kind of an oversized radiatior hose clamp with a rubber gasket between the clamp and the pipes being joined.Steve StullWinslow 7076




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's what I was talking about. But is "Fernco" a trade name? Doesn't sound like a generic term.

I think we'd better drop this anyhow, Sheriff Brock is very humorless these days, and I'm fairly
sure this joint is post-'60 . . .

SGL