main@RealSTMFC.groups.io | Beef Trust

Home Messages Hashtags Subgroups

Date Date 1 - 4 of 4

Beef Trust

Adrian Hundhausen #78182 Fine, Anthony, thank you for the clarification. And perhaps you could help me out here. I have been looking for a list of the Private Car Lines run by Armour in the era just before the 1902- onwards period that you are talking about, not least because a model of a given Armour reefer (aka the Heinz cars) could possibly serve as a model for cars lettered for numerous 'lines'. That would JUST squeak into the time frame covered by this list, and until now I have not been able to find a complete list, although I believe John White mentioned the number 17 (of lines) along with maybe 12000 cars? I know that Armour ran Kansas City Dressed Beef Line, and I believe that they ran Fruit Growers' Express (TOC version) and I suspect they also owned Continental Fruit Express. What other lines am I missing? And by the way, I stole the term Beef Trust from White's reefer book and I believe he used it to refer to Armour. Perhaps I misunderstood him and he was only referring to the post-1902 situation. I would be happy for a further clarification. Thanks in advance, Adrian Hundhausen --- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote: adrian hundhausen wrote: If I could add to what Al said earlier: The Heinz cars were leased from the Beef Trust (=Armour) . . . I think this is poor terminology. The "Beef Trust" was the nickname given to the attempt, in 1902, by Swift, Armour and Morris to form the National Packing Company; it was soon dissolved by the Supreme Court. Serious refrigerator car operations for meat shipping were begun more than 20 years earlier by Swift, soon joined by Armour and Hammond (the Morris firm was the fourth of the "Big Four" meat packers). If cars were leased from Armour, let's just say so. In the mid-90s the beef trust started buying reefers . . . Again, there was no "Beef Trust" until 1902, and in any event the "Big Four" bought somewhat different reefers for their own fleets. I believe Adrian is over-generalizing about meat reefers. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
More All Messages By This Member
Cyril Durrenberger #78201 Armour Armour Ref line Fruit Growers Exp Barbaroso Ref L Tropocana R Exp Kansas City F Ex toggle quoted message Show quoted text --- On Mon, 1/5/09, adrian hundhausen <dnaldimodaroloc@...> wrote: From: adrian hundhausen <dnaldimodaroloc@...> Subject: [STMFC] Beef Trust To: STMFC@... Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 1:25 PM Fine, Anthony, thank you for the clarification. And perhaps you could help me out here. I have been looking for a list of the Private Car Lines run by Armour in the era just before the 1902- onwards period that you are talking about, not least because a model of a given Armour reefer (aka the Heinz cars) could possibly serve as a model for cars lettered for numerous 'lines'. That would JUST squeak into the time frame covered by this list, and until now I have not been able to find a complete list, although I believe John White mentioned the number 17 (of lines) along with maybe 12000 cars? I know that Armour ran Kansas City Dressed Beef Line, and I believe that they ran Fruit Growers' Express (TOC version) and I suspect they also owned Continental Fruit Express. What other lines am I missing? And by the way, I stole the term Beef Trust from White's reefer book and I believe he used it to refer to Armour. Perhaps I misunderstood him and he was only referring to the post-1902 situation. I would be happy for a further clarification. Thanks in advance, Adrian Hundhausen --- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@.. .> wrote: adrian hundhausen wrote: If I could add to what Al said earlier: The Heinz cars were leased from the Beef Trust (=Armour) . . . I think this is poor terminology. The "Beef Trust" was the nickname given to the attempt, in 1902, by Swift, Armour and Morris to form the National Packing Company; it was soon dissolved by the Supreme Court. Serious refrigerator car operations for meat shipping were begun more than 20 years earlier by Swift, soon joined by Armour and Hammond (the Morris firm was the fourth of the "Big Four" meat packers). If cars were leased from Armour, let's just say so. In the mid-90s the beef trust started buying reefers . . . Again, there was no "Beef Trust" until 1902, and in any event the "Big Four" bought somewhat different reefers for their own fleets. I believe Adrian is over-generalizing about meat reefers. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
More All Messages By This Member
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> #78203 adrian hundhausen wrote: Fine, Anthony, thank you for the clarification. And perhaps you could help me out here. I have been looking for a list of the Private Car Lines run by Armour in the era just before the 1902- onwards period . . . Among the lines absorbed by Armour by 1895 were Continental Fruit Express; the Goodell Line; Kansas City Fruit Express; Fruit Dealers Despatch; California Fruit Express; and Fruit Growers Express. These were larger operations, and there were about a dozen smaller ones also absorbed in 1895. I don't have all my research notes from the PFE book handy or I would list the entire group. And by the way, I stole the term Beef Trust from White's reefer book and I believe he used it to refer to Armour. Perhaps you did, but I can't find it in my copy of the Great Yellow Fleet. Can you be more specific? Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
More
Adrian Hundhausen #78208 Thanks for that partial list Tony, that is more than I knew before. If you run across the rest of the names I would love to have them. I have a scan of p. 19 of White's reefer book because of the picture, and I think the text there misled me. In any case I believe that in the late 1890s there was a more or less standard 34' reefer that Armour was buying/building for its lines, with inside end sill and a 6-rung side ladder. Cars from acquired lines would of course differ, but I wouldn't be surprised if, taken together, the outside-end-sill-with-5-rung-end-ladder model I spoke of earlier and the 'standard' late-90s model I am positing here accounted for a majority of the 12000 cars running on those 17 lines. I know absolutely nothing about Hammond, Swift, or Morris cars beyond what I have seen in a couple of photos. Best, Adrian --- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote: adrian hundhausen wrote: Fine, Anthony, thank you for the clarification. And perhaps you could help me out here. I have been looking for a list of the Private Car Lines run by Armour in the era just before the 1902- onwards period . . . Among the lines absorbed by Armour by 1895 were Continental Fruit Express; the Goodell Line; Kansas City Fruit Express; Fruit Dealers Despatch; California Fruit Express; and Fruit Growers Express. These were larger operations, and there were about a dozen smaller ones also absorbed in 1895. I don't have all my research notes from the PFE book handy or I would list the entire group. And by the way, I stole the term Beef Trust from White's reefer book and I believe he used it to refer to Armour. Perhaps you did, but I can't find it in my copy of the Great Yellow Fleet. Can you be more specific? Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
More All Messages By This Member

1 - 4 of 4

1

Previous Topic Next Topic

Home Hashtags Subgroups About Features Pricing Updates Terms Help Twitter