Resin kit problems...


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

I was discussing resin kits yesterday with a couple of fellow
STMFC'ers. Talk centred around the use of various resins for model
kits, and their relative stability. It was felt that the the grey
resin used in Westerfield kits was most stable. The white resin used
by some manufacturers was cited as being least stable, with instances
of a certain manufacturer's cars being "humped" held out as examples.
These particular car kits have one-piece carbodies, either floor and
ends/sides, later kits from this manufacturer having roof and
sides/ends as one casting.

At home, I opened a box containing a white resin car kit from that
manufacturer (I won't specify the manufacturer at this time) that I
had purchased about seven years ago, to find that the one-piece
floor/end/sides assembly had sagged so much as to make the model
impossible to finish assembling. It had been stored in its original
corrugated cardboard (single-wall corrugated material) box, in the
original tissue paper wrapping. The box is undamaged, and the kit has
been stored at room temperature in a house that is is air-conditioned
in the summer.

I also have a flat cast resin kit for a CPR "Big Otis" steel-frame,
high-sided GS gondola car moulded in tan coloured resin, which I
purchased in 1991. I scribed board detail on the inside of the car
sides and ends. I have not assembled the car. Over time, the side
castings warped--again, stored in the original corruagted cardbord box
and tissue, heated and air-conditioned house, no damage to the box,
yadda, yadda...Some of this I was able to remedy by placing the
offending castings on a cookie sheet in the oven to soften them, then
placing the parts on a sheet of glass under weights. Sort of
remedy--the sides still have a slight curve.

As we STMFC'ers assemble many resin kits, this may be of some concern
to many of us. We spend a fair amount of time and effort to assemble
(or even more to modify) decorate, and weather these kits, and their
long-term dimensional stability of some resin material used in them,
for me, has been called into question.

I'd appreciate your comments.

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.


Dennis Williams
 

I have a few kits that are in the black(almost) resin that is VERY brittle. I contacted the company and they said could not do anything about the kits. I understand why. Correct me if I am wrong, They said that they offered all the shops who purchased the kits replacements and they sold(the shops) the bad ones any way. It does not upset me once it was explained to me. I paid good money for kits I can not build. Now I have built a few of these kits in the light grey resin and they are great!!  I have no problem with the white resin.  After a couple of hundred kits,  They all need some kind of work.  All I can say is to keep building!!  Dennis

--- On Mon, 1/19/09, Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

From: Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Resin kit problems...
To: STMFC@...
Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 12:10 PM






I was discussing resin kits yesterday with a couple of fellow
STMFC'ers. Talk centred around the use of various resins for model
kits, and their relative stability. It was felt that the the grey
resin used in Westerfield kits was most stable. The white resin used
by some manufacturers was cited as being least stable, with instances
of a certain manufacturer' s cars being "humped" held out as examples.
These particular car kits have one-piece carbodies, either floor and
ends/sides, later kits from this manufacturer having roof and
sides/ends as one casting.

At home, I opened a box containing a white resin car kit from that
manufacturer (I won't specify the manufacturer at this time) that I
had purchased about seven years ago, to find that the one-piece
floor/end/sides assembly had sagged so much as to make the model
impossible to finish assembling. It had been stored in its original
corrugated cardboard (single-wall corrugated material) box, in the
original tissue paper wrapping. The box is undamaged, and the kit has
been stored at room temperature in a house that is is air-conditioned
in the summer.

I also have a flat cast resin kit for a CPR "Big Otis" steel-frame,
high-sided GS gondola car moulded in tan coloured resin, which I
purchased in 1991. I scribed board detail on the inside of the car
sides and ends. I have not assembled the car. Over time, the side
castings warped--again, stored in the original corruagted cardbord box
and tissue, heated and air-conditioned house, no damage to the box,
yadda, yadda...Some of this I was able to remedy by placing the
offending castings on a cookie sheet in the oven to soften them, then
placing the parts on a sheet of glass under weights. Sort of
remedy--the sides still have a slight curve.

As we STMFC'ers assemble many resin kits, this may be of some concern
to many of us. We spend a fair amount of time and effort to assemble
(or even more to modify) decorate, and weather these kits, and their
long-term dimensional stability of some resin material used in them,
for me, has been called into question.

I'd appreciate your comments.

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

To further explain Dennis' answer, I told him that for 20 years we replaced the old polyester castings with the new castings at our cost. And indeed, we did offer all hobby shops a free replacement to get the polyester kits off their shelves. But now that we're semi-retired we can no longer afford to continue the program. We still get requests from hobby shops for replacements....- Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Williams
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Resin kit problems...


I have a few kits that are in the black(almost) resin that is VERY brittle. I contacted the company and they said could not do anything about the kits. I understand why. Correct me if I am wrong, They said that they offered all the shops who purchased the kits replacements and they sold(the shops) the bad ones any way. It does not upset me once it was explained to me. I paid good money for kits I can not build. Now I have built a few of these kits in the light grey resin and they are great!! I have no problem with the white resin. After a couple of hundred kits, They all need some kind of work. All I can say is to keep building!! Dennis

--- On Mon, 1/19/09, Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

From: Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Resin kit problems...
To: STMFC@...
Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 12:10 PM

I was discussing resin kits yesterday with a couple of fellow
STMFC'ers. Talk centred around the use of various resins for model
kits, and their relative stability. It was felt that the the grey
resin used in Westerfield kits was most stable. The white resin used
by some manufacturers was cited as being least stable, with instances
of a certain manufacturer' s cars being "humped" held out as examples.
These particular car kits have one-piece carbodies, either floor and
ends/sides, later kits from this manufacturer having roof and
sides/ends as one casting.

At home, I opened a box containing a white resin car kit from that
manufacturer (I won't specify the manufacturer at this time) that I
had purchased about seven years ago, to find that the one-piece
floor/end/sides assembly had sagged so much as to make the model
impossible to finish assembling. It had been stored in its original
corrugated cardboard (single-wall corrugated material) box, in the
original tissue paper wrapping. The box is undamaged, and the kit has
been stored at room temperature in a house that is is air-conditioned
in the summer.

I also have a flat cast resin kit for a CPR "Big Otis" steel-frame,
high-sided GS gondola car moulded in tan coloured resin, which I
purchased in 1991. I scribed board detail on the inside of the car
sides and ends. I have not assembled the car. Over time, the side
castings warped--again, stored in the original corruagted cardbord box
and tissue, heated and air-conditioned house, no damage to the box,
yadda, yadda...Some of this I was able to remedy by placing the
offending castings on a cookie sheet in the oven to soften them, then
placing the parts on a sheet of glass under weights. Sort of
remedy--the sides still have a slight curve.

As we STMFC'ers assemble many resin kits, this may be of some concern
to many of us. We spend a fair amount of time and effort to assemble
(or even more to modify) decorate, and weather these kits, and their
long-term dimensional stability of some resin material used in them,
for me, has been called into question.

I'd appreciate your comments.

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.


Schuyler Larrabee
 

To further explain Dennis' answer, I told him that for 20 years we replaced the old polyester
castings with the new
castings at our cost. And indeed, we did offer all hobby shops a free replacement to get the
polyester kits off their
shelves. But now that we're semi-retired we can no longer afford to continue the program. We still
get requests from
hobby shops for replacements....- Al Westerfield

Al, do you still offer all of those kits?

SGL


Mark Pierce <marcoperforar@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:
I wonder how the decals are holding up on those old kits. What is the
lifespan of decals kept in a dry environment at temperatures between 50
and 80 degrees?

Mark


feddersenmark
 

Mark, I have "tons" of Champ and Walthers decals, some over 45yrs.
old that I occasionally find a need to use, in part. I have never had
any problems, but I must add that they have been kept in a dark and
climatological stable environment. Nothing fancy, just an old 6
drawer oak card file. To be safe, you may want to lightly spray the
decals with Microscale's Liquid Decal Film before floating them off
the paper. The Westerfield decals, if protected, are probably in
better condition than these old relics. Mark Feddersen



--- In STMFC@..., "Mark Pierce" <marcoperforar@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@> wrote:
I wonder how the decals are holding up on those old kits. What is
the
lifespan of decals kept in a dry environment at temperatures
between 50
and 80 degrees?

Mark


Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Mark - I purchased a 1936 Walthers catalog at a train show some years ago. It included a sample decal. I tested it and it was still good. - Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Pierce
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 7:38 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Resin kit problems...


--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:
>
I wonder how the decals are holding up on those old kits. What is the
lifespan of decals kept in a dry environment at temperatures between 50
and 80 degrees?

Mark


Dennis Williams
 

All seem OK.  Yellow comes apart. I had that problem with several mfg's. Interesting that it is just that color. Dennis

--- On Mon, 1/19/09, Mark Pierce <marcoperforar@...> wrote:

From: Mark Pierce <marcoperforar@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Resin kit problems...
To: STMFC@...
Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 5:38 PM






--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@ ...> wrote:
I wonder how the decals are holding up on those old kits. What is the
lifespan of decals kept in a dry environment at temperatures between 50
and 80 degrees?

Mark


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Schuyler - We try to keep the web site current. If the site allows you to order something that (usually) means we can make it. - Al

----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler Larrabee
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:37 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Resin kit problems...



> To further explain Dennis' answer, I told him that for 20 years we replaced the old polyester
castings with the new
> castings at our cost. And indeed, we did offer all hobby shops a free replacement to get the
polyester kits off their
> shelves. But now that we're semi-retired we can no longer afford to continue the program. We still
get requests from
> hobby shops for replacements....- Al Westerfield

Al, do you still offer all of those kits?

SGL


mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

I was discussing resin kits yesterday with a couple of fellow
STMFC'ers. Talk centred around the use of various resins for model
kits, and their relative stability.
Several years ago I bought a styrene B&M ARA steel boxcar ("X-29") kit
(Red Caboose) that came with resin castings of the distinctive doors
used on these cars. The doors were made of yellowish resin, painted to
match the car. When I finally got around to assembling the kit, the
resin doors had shriveled and distorted. (IIRC, this kit was marketed
by a third party, which made the resin parts.)

Now, I'm afraid to take a look at the many unbuilt resin kits in my
stash. They're probably all more than ten years old.

Walt Lankenau


Tim O'Connor
 

Shriveled resin?? That's a new one. Where do you store
your unbuilt kits?

I've heard horror stories about decals too, but I've
used many 20+ year old decals without problems. I keep
them stored cool & dry.

I was discussing resin kits yesterday with a couple of fellow
STMFC'ers. Talk centred around the use of various resins for model
kits, and their relative stability.
Several years ago I bought a styrene B&M ARA steel boxcar ("X-29") kit
(Red Caboose) that came with resin castings of the distinctive doors
used on these cars. The doors were made of yellowish resin, painted to
match the car. When I finally got around to assembling the kit, the
resin doors had shriveled and distorted. (IIRC, this kit was marketed
by a third party, which made the resin parts.)

Now, I'm afraid to take a look at the many unbuilt resin kits in my
stash. They're probably all more than ten years old.

Walt Lankenau


Mark Pierce <marcoperforar@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., " Westerfield" <westerfield@...> wrote:
...But now that we're semi-retired...

That reminds me. Need to take a complete rolling-stock inventory and
see what vacuumous niches exist you might fill before retirement. Long
live semi-retirement!

Mark Pierce


Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

This has been a very interesting discussion, not the least reason being the obvious authoritative expertise, and the impressive empirical data that has come forth. If I can summarize what I think I have taken away so far, it would be this (corrections/refinements invited):

1) Any given resin quality is closely tied to the knowledge, care, timing and meticulousness with which the resin has been prepared and mixed by the caster.

2) Color is no clue as to resin quality. Normal color is white, but because this color causes such perception problems (the end user often cannot perceive sufficient detail to properly orient or fit parts- a problem shared by many with all-black styrene parts!), a color additive (commonly shades of gray) is added to the resin mix.

3) Cast resin cars have every good reason to look forward to a very long life.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Andy Carlson
 

Resin (polyurethane) manufacturers are numerous, and so many resin variations are available to suit their clients with a challenging array of different production situations that few generalizations can be made. Not all, and perhaps not even"Most" resins are white. A white resin tends to be a more expensive resin. Off-whites and yellows are frequently less expensive. I have used products from Permatex and later from B&J of Tustin, CA that were yellow. These were offered as economical alternatives, and Permatex's was called "Castmaster"(if my memory can be trusted). I stepped up to the pure whites for two reasons-tinting to grey and reduced shrinking. I paid an extra $30.00/gallon kit for these options. Properties of resin include mixing viscosity, pot life, demold time, shrinking rates, cured resin hardness, bubble retention,temperature exposure ranges, and more. The challenge is to get the properties most important, for finding a perfect resin is
unlikely.

The service reps also talk about how heat curing many of the resins makes for a more stable part with less chance of post mold-removal warping, though not all resins have this heat curing property.

One generalization that I will make, most of today's resin casters are using a product which gives them useful parts. The junk resins are mostly not used. Cured resin is very stable, and future anthropologists may find religious icons of 20th century train gods in old landfills, still recognized as railroad cars and sharing space with plastic water bottles.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- On Thu, 1/22/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
2) Color is no clue as to resin quality. Normal color is
white, but
because this color causes such perception problems (the end
user often
cannot perceive sufficient detail to properly orient or fit
parts- a
problem shared by many with all-black styrene parts!), a
color
additive (commonly shades of gray) is added to the resin
mix.


Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

As you'll recall, I was the first to manufacture resin freight car kits. At the time Athearn kits were selling for $3.50. We had to charge almost 5 times that much. I was really scared that the market would not support such a price. We came in that low only by using 55 gallon drums of polyester. The urethane we now use costs 5 times as much, ruins molds rapidly and must be handled in very dry conditions - none of which were problems for polyester. And one piece car bodies take 3 times as long to make as flat castings. So as things have become much easier for the modeler the opposite is true for the manufacturer. - Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Carlson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Resin kit problems...


Resin (polyurethane) manufacturers are numerous, and so many resin variations are available to suit their clients with a challenging array of different production situations that few generalizations can be made. Not all, and perhaps not even"Most" resins are white. A white resin tends to be a more expensive resin. Off-whites and yellows are frequently less expensive. I have used products from Permatex and later from B&J of Tustin, CA that were yellow. These were offered as economical alternatives, and Permatex's was called "Castmaster"(if my memory can be trusted). I stepped up to the pure whites for two reasons-tinting to grey and reduced shrinking. I paid an extra $30.00/gallon kit for these options. Properties of resin include mixing viscosity, pot life, demold time, shrinking rates, cured resin hardness, bubble retention,temperature exposure ranges, and more. The challenge is to get the properties most important, for finding a perfect resin is
unlikely.

The service reps also talk about how heat curing many of the resins makes for a more stable part with less chance of post mold-removal warping, though not all resins have this heat curing property.

One generalization that I will make, most of today's resin casters are using a product which gives them useful parts. The junk resins are mostly not used. Cured resin is very stable, and future anthropologists may find religious icons of 20th century train gods in old landfills, still recognized as railroad cars and sharing space with plastic water bottles.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- On Thu, 1/22/09, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
> 2) Color is no clue as to resin quality. Normal color is
> white, but
> because this color causes such perception problems (the end
> user often
> cannot perceive sufficient detail to properly orient or fit
> parts- a
> problem shared by many with all-black styrene parts!), a
> color
> additive (commonly shades of gray) is added to the resin
> mix.


Jim King
 

As you'll recall, I was the first to manufacture resin freight car kits. At
the time Athearn kits were selling for $3.50. We had to charge almost 5
times that much. I was really scared that the market would not support such
a price. We came in that low only by using 55 gallon drums of polyester. The
urethane we now use costs 5 times as much, ruins molds rapidly and must be
handled in very dry conditions - none of which were problems for polyester.
And one piece car bodies take 3 times as long to make as flat castings. So
as things have become much easier for the modeler the opposite is true for
the manufacturer. - Al Westerfield



Amen, Brother Westerfield!



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

<http://www.smokymountainmodelworks.com>


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Thanks to everyone for their comments. As I'd written, the issues
were confined to two cars.

To be fair about things, the car with the sagging one-piece body is an
80' resin fish-bellied passenger coach model with separate roof. It
is moulded in a white resin, and I've a few ideas to recover the
model, as it is not offered by the manufacturer now. The roof has
stayed true, but the car shows a sag of about .075" in the centre when
the roof is installed. I feel that the issues raised with this car
may be applicable to, say, people building one-piece resin models of
mill gons in the larger scales. Then again, a sagging mill gon may
actually be desirable...

The other car kit with warpage problems is a high-sided CPR "Big Otis"
gondola car kit. It was made by F&C for RPI's model railroad shop.
It is moulded in a tan coloured resin.

The common factor seems to be that these models both have thin sides,
approx. .025" for the boards of the gon, and about .040" on the coach
sides. They also have no roof or a roof not yet attached to the car
sides. The roof of a house car would add stability to the finished
model.

Al--I have absolutely NO issues with your Westerfield kits. I have
built many of them, and the stability of the resins used your product
has never given me any issues. And I've had the pleasure to build
everything from your early "Fowler" 36' steel-frame boxcar moulded in
a hard resin (I dare not drop it) to the NYC one-piece body steel
boxcar. All are excellent models, and I'll buy and build more of your
kits yet. Yours are the "gold standard" in resin kits. IMHO, the
only thing you'll ever have to defend is why you didn't make more
kits. (Just having a little fun with you.)

In fact, a gentleman approached me at an NMRA train show that I was
displaying and working on a few models at last Sunday. Looking at a
CN "Fowler" box car on the table, he commented on the job that I'd
done putting together a wood car kit. He was shocked to see the
Westerfield box that it came in!

Bill Darnaby's posting is instructive, in that he states that he has
assembled hundred of resin kits, and never had any issues. Perhaps I
have run into two exceptions that are best explained by those more
well versed in statistical probability, i.e. it is possible, but might
be in the order of 1/200,000, etc...(I should buy some lottery
tickets, perhaps? ;)

Another factor mentioned was the care taken by the manufacturer when
mixing and pouring the resin into the mould. This is a valid point
too, and one that the modeller can only determine by kit reviews,
their personal experience, and talking with fellow modellers.

Steve Lucas.


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

The common factor seems to be that these models both have thin sides,
approx. .025" for the boards of the gon, and about .040" on the coach
sides. They also have no roof or a roof not yet attached to the car
sides. The roof of a house car would add stability to the finished
model.
Ah, the old problem of unequal wall section. People who design
injection molds have it repeatedly reinforced that unequal wall
sections are bad, bad, bad... because they see the results of unequal
shrinkage immediately as soon as the first part is ejecte
(unfortunately, that is not soon enough to save all the money that
will be spent to rework the mold).

With the resins used in resin kits, the results can be delayed,
sometimes for years. Here is what likely happened:

The resins used in what we are calling resin kits are classed as
thermosets, which change chemically as they cure, as opposed to
thermoplastics, which are simply melted, and freeze into the shape
defined by the mold.

Thermosets can also be injection molded, in fact the factory that used
to be next door to Accurail compounded thermosetting molding compounds
that were shipped elsewhere for molding. They simply blended polyester
resin, chopped glass and other fillers, and catalyst, catylizing the
mix to a level that would not react at normal temperatures. When the
"bulk molding compound" as it's called, was forced into a heated mold,
the chemical reaction "kicked off", and the material hardened into a
part. Herein lies the clue as to what has happened to the resin kits
in your example.

The resins used need to attain a certain temperature to properly
polymerize. The resin systems are designed around a certain
temperature being attained in the part, either by exothermic reaction
(heat generated by the chemistry of the mix) or endothermic reaction
(heat absorbed from the surroundings). Exothermic materials are
designed with a certain volume and wall thickness in mind; too thin a
section allows the heat to escape into the surroundings before the
material can properly cure. However, typically they will partially
cure, and look just fine.

What has likely happened in the example is that the thick floor /
underframe portion fully cured, and fully shrunk while still in the
mold. the thinner sides, however, only partially cured, and will
continue to cure over time. Often an increase in ambiant temperature
(like storage in a hot attic) will result in additional curing. This
curing consists of more molecular cross linking, and more cross
linking draws the molecules closer together, which we see as
shrinkage. When the sides get shorter, but the floor remains the same
length, the part bows. If the car would have been built, with the roof
installed, the roof may have held the assembly straight, if the glue
held. If not, the model would have popped apart.

Back when resin kits were all flat kits, the universal advice for
warped parts was to lay them on a cookie sheet in a "low oven"...
maybe 180*F. This typically flattened them out, since while the resins
are thermosets initially, the cured resin is thermoplastic enough to
become more flexible when heated. While the intention of this process
was to bend the parts back flat, it had the unintended consequence of
increasing the temperature they were stable at to whatever the oven
was set at, which is likely a higher temperature than they'd ever be
subject to again.

I have used this method for that secondary purpose; when I supplied
flat cast parts to Speedwitch to be built into patterns for their
reissue of my Soo Line boxcar as a one piece body kit, I ran all the
parts through the oven, not to straighten them, but to stabilize them
to a higher temperature so that they would be less likely to do
anything unexpected when assembled and used as masters for new molds.
However, I really have no way of telling if I really did anything
useful, other than noting that they did come out a couple thousandths
of an inch shorter than when they went in, so there was indeed some
additional cross linking. Whether it did any good, well, it's kind of
like paying for insurance... if you never need it, I guess it doesn't
do any good :-)

What to do with a warped one piece body? Well, if you can support it
adequately in three dimensions, you should be able to heat it and get
it to straighten out. Let us know how it turns out.

Dennis


ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:
when I supplied
flat cast parts to Speedwitch to be built into patterns for their
reissue of my Soo Line boxcar as a one piece body kit....
Does that mean that the resulting car is not exactly the same as the
original Soo SS box car?

By the way, that (the original Soo SS box car) was first class, i.e.
Westerfield quality. Those cars had the thickest sides I recall

You made the sides for the Accurail SS box car with 6 diagonals by
hand, right? Then somehow copied them into the molds?

Ed


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@> wrote:
when I supplied
flat cast parts to Speedwitch to be built into patterns for their
reissue of my Soo Line boxcar as a one piece body kit....
Does that mean that the resulting car is not exactly the same as the
original Soo SS box car?
Only in that they are .002 - .003 inches shorter. The modeler
typically sands that much off to square the car assembly anyway. Resin
kits is all about accurate appearance, not accurate size. Then again,
if you can see .003" difference (an HO scale 1/4") in the length of
the assembled cars, you're a better man than I.

By the way, that (the original Soo SS box car) was first class, i.e.
Westerfield quality. Those cars had the thickest sides I recall
Because they needed the thickness to provide the ledge the floor
seated against


You made the sides for the Accurail SS box car with 6 diagonals by
hand, right? Then somehow copied them into the molds?
Trade secret! :-)

Dennis