Box cars on your layout


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Having mulled over the box car fleet problem for awhile, and being cognizant of the Gilbert-Nelson approach (for FOREIGN cars on a railroad, and probably primarily for next nearest neighbors, not immediate neighbors), I thought I would construct a table of the biggest box car owners (meaning 10,000 or more XM box cars owned). For me, these are the "foreigns" that ought to primarily show up on a layout in interchange.
There are no real surprises here, except that some tabulations have omitted subsidiary roads, such as C&O's Pere Marquette or Mopac's Gulf Coast Lines. These do represent different reporting marks but the same railroad parentage. In all cases where the ORER has separate entries for subsidiaries, I've included them below.
I've shown percentages, not of the total North American or U.S. fleet, but of these "Top 21" roads, owning 10,000 or more XM box cars. Note that auto cars of all types (XML, XME, XAP, etc.) are omitted. Data are for January 1953.

Road XM box cars Percent of the "Top 21"
PRR 62115 12.3
NYC 58748 11.7
SP + T&NO 34815 6.9
ATSF 32499 6.5
MILW 28075 5.6
B&O 25634 5.1
UP 24111 4.8
CNW + CMO 23658 4.7
Southern 22807 4.5
CBQ + subs 22592 4.5
GN 21652 4.3
C&O + PM 20720 4.1
MP + subs 20461 4.1
IC 20013 4.0
NP 19201 3.8
RI 18857 3.7
L&N 12664 2.5
SL-SF 12529 2.5
ACL 11813 2.2
Seaboard 10075 2.0

Total of the "Top 21," 503039

Once I'd made this list, I was amused to note that a few of Ted Culotta's "Essential Freight Cars" are from roads not shown here, such as Lehigh Valley, Soo Line, Wabash, and Katy, but several major ones on this list have not (yet) been covered by Ted, such as C&O + PM, or L&N. But overall, Ted's coverage pretty largely does nail this list.
My own view is that any railroad not on this list, no matter how "fun" or attractive to model, is going to have to be treated as a "rarity seldom seen" for my operations--that is, within the G-N universe: foreigns from next nearest neighbors or beyond.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

That's a nice list Tony. But something (math?) tells
me that a railroad with 1% of the fleet should show up
1/2 as often (average) as one with 2%. I think for my
club layout, which has a fleet size in the many hundreds
of cars, that a "Top 40" or "Top 50" is called for. And
we're still working on methods for "occasional" cars.

Consider this view of the Port of Baltimore B&O yard.
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=9569023bcdd01743_large

In that random yard shot is a very uncommon road name:
Mississippi Central. Can you find the MSC box car? (Hint,
it is only partially visible.)

Maybe what we need is the G-N Corollary to the Mike Brock
Axiom "Every freight train must have at least one NP car".
This new corollary is "Out of 100 car trips, at least one
should be a real oddball".

Tim

Road XM box cars Percent of the "Top 21"

PRR 62115 12.3
NYC 58748 11.7
SP + T&NO 34815 6.9
ATSF 32499 6.5
MILW 28075 5.6
B&O 25634 5.1
UP 24111 4.8
CNW + CMO 23658 4.7
Southern 22807 4.5
CBQ + subs 22592 4.5
GN 21652 4.3
C&O + PM 20720 4.1
MP + subs 20461 4.1
IC 20013 4.0
NP 19201 3.8
RI 18857 3.7
L&N 12664 2.5
SL-SF 12529 2.5
ACL 11813 2.2
Seaboard 10075 2.0

Total of the "Top 21," 503039

Once I'd made this list, I was amused to note that a few of Ted
Culotta's "Essential Freight Cars" are from roads not shown here, such
as Lehigh Valley, Soo Line, Wabash, and Katy, but several major ones on
this list have not (yet) been covered by Ted, such as C&O + PM, or L&N.
But overall, Ted's coverage pretty largely does nail this list.
My own view is that any railroad not on this list, no matter
how "fun" or attractive to model, is going to have to be treated as a
"rarity seldom seen" for my operations--that is, within the G-N
universe: foreigns from next nearest neighbors or beyond.

Tony Thompson


devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

That's a nice list Tony. But something (math?) tells
me that a railroad with 1% of the fleet should show up
1/2 as often (average) as one with 2%. I think for my
club layout, which has a fleet size in the many hundreds
of cars, that a "Top 40" or "Top 50" is called for. And
we're still working on methods for "occasional" cars.

Consider this view of the Port of Baltimore B&O yard.
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=9569023bcdd01743_large

In that random yard shot is a very uncommon road name:
Mississippi Central. Can you find the MSC box car? (Hint,
it is only partially visible.)
From Tony:


Road XM box cars Percent of the "Top 21"

PRR 62115 12.3
NYC 58748 11.7
SP + T&NO 34815 6.9
ATSF 32499 6.5
MILW 28075 5.6
B&O 25634 5.1
UP 24111 4.8
CNW + CMO 23658 4.7
Southern 22807 4.5
CBQ + subs 22592 4.5
GN 21652 4.3
C&O + PM 20720 4.1
MP + subs 20461 4.1
IC 20013 4.0
NP 19201 3.8
RI 18857 3.7
L&N 12664 2.5
SL-SF 12529 2.5
ACL 11813 2.2
Seaboard 10075 2.0

Total of the "Top 21," 503039

Once I'd made this list, I was amused to note that a few of
Ted
Culotta's "Essential Freight Cars" are from roads not shown here, such
as Lehigh Valley, Soo Line, Wabash, and Katy, but several major
ones on
this list have not (yet) been covered by Ted, such as C&O + PM, or
L&N.
But overall, Ted's coverage pretty largely does nail this list.
My own view is that any railroad not on this list, no matter
how "fun" or attractive to model, is going to have to be treated as a
"rarity seldom seen" for my operations--that is, within the G-N
universe: foreigns from next nearest neighbors or beyond.

Tony Thompson
Tim & Tony have found my weak spot.

I lack the the data Tony has quoted, but in 1943 the top 21 roads
possessed 73% of the XM, XA, XAP fleet (I'm assuming that during WWII
even the auto-box cars were pooled, since autos were not being
produced for domestic consumption, so I have lumped them together for
estimating boxcar fleet percentages).

As I proposed in a previous post, fiddling appears to be necessary to
provide the occasional "odd" car in the cars arriving on-layout from
staging. But some intersting statistics for the "Top 21" can provide
insight into how "random" car distribution can be.

For a train with 20 boxcars arriving on scene (and this is for boxcars
used for general merchandise on a line that is NOT serving industries
that use a significant population of cars in captive service), on
average, about 15 cars would be from the "top 21" roads, and 5 from
"lesser" roads.

But statistics can predict the "distribution" of this ratio of "top
21" to "lesser" roads:

- 0.3% of the trains would have ALL "top 21" roads (1 train in 300)

- 2.1% of the trains would have only one "lesser" road box car (1
train in 48)

- 6.5% of the trains would have two "lesser" road boxcars

- 13.2% of the trains would have three "lesser" box cars

- 19.5% of the trains would have four "lesser" box cars

- 22% of the trains would have five "lesser" box cars

- 17.4% of the trains would have six "lesser" box cars

- 11.3% of the trains would have seven "lesser" box cars

- 6% of the trains would have eight "lesser" box cars

- 2.7% of the trains would have nine "lesser" box cars

- 1% of the trains would have ten of the "lesser" road box cars - note
that the this is 1 in 100 trains dispatched will have DOUBLE the the
"average" number of expected "lesser" road cars.

What does this mean - more fiddling!

Two weeke ago I posted some theoretical projections concerning
probabilities of a specific road's boxcars appearing on a layout. I
proposed the concept of three fleets - the "full-time" fleet composed
of dominant roads that would be represented by at least one car per op
session, a small fiddle pool to draw from of roads that should appear
one to five times out of every 6 op sessions, and a second fiddle pool
from which a few cars would be drawn each session, and then stored
away for at least five sessions. The premise was that after six
sessions even the PP would not remember seeing that MSC car. (I also
mentioned that the longer the PP's memory, the larger the "rare"
fiddle pool needs to be.)

Continuing with the "six session" memory limit of the PP, and if one
dispatches 5 trains with 20 boxcars per session, one would expect some
surprises:

- One of the 30 trains could legitimately have only 11 "top 21"
boxcars out of the 20 boxcars. Based on last week's thread, I would
recommend against both the MSC and MWR cars being in the same train,
but Ted's essential LV and SOO cars could help fill out this train ;-)

- Unless you have a train that is normally composed of cars used in
dedicated service, DO NOT makeup a train of only "top 21" boxcars -
the PP may cite you for that one.

- Slightly over half (18 out of the 30) trains should have 4-6
"lesser" road cars per train,

- The PP may not cite you for the train with only one "lesser" road car.

- The remaining ten trains could have either 2, 3, 7 or 8 "lesser"
road boxcars in each train.

One should note that in a five train op session, an extra 10 "top 21"
and "lesser" road boxcars would be necessary to create the illusion of
the prototype's "randomness". Bigger sessions, and bigger trains would
actually need even more cars to simulate this diversity.

Conclusion: More stage fiddling is warranted, and the boxcar fleet
will need to be expanded a little bit more to "simulate" the
prototype's randomness.

While this further justifes a boxcar collection larger than can fit on
a layout, it also requires more "fiddle" pool storage space adjacent
to the staging tracks, and more fiddling either between sessions, or
even during sesions if trains are used more than once per session.

As for pictures, what does this mean? In 30 yard pictures with 20
identifiable box cars each, the distributions are the same as above.
Is that MSC car a "surprise"? Not really. In each photo there is a
good chance of a "surprise" car. Our reaction to an MWR car in
Baltimore would be similar. But if all 20 cars were "top 21" cars,
then that WOULD be surprising. Mix your staging trains accordingly.

Naturally all of this is theoretical, your mileage may vary...

Dave Evans


water.kresse@...
 

What are the chances of finding a C&O or PM non-coal freight car west of the Mississippi River? 



You see pix of C&O gons with scrap aluminum way out in LA.  I guess there were GM assembly plants in Norwalk and Van Nyes, CA, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, and St. Louis . . . . having auto parts box cars that needed something to bring back east and the end of auto-loader boxes after WW2.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "devansprr" <devans1@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:08:41 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Box cars on your layout

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

That's a nice list Tony. But something (math?) tells
me that a railroad with 1% of the fleet should show up
1/2 as often (average) as one with 2%. I think for my
club layout, which has a fleet size in the many hundreds
of cars, that a "Top 40" or "Top 50" is called for. And
we're still working on methods for "occasional" cars.

Consider this view of the Port of Baltimore B&O yard.
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=9569023bcdd01743_large

In that random yard shot is a very uncommon road name:
Mississippi Central. Can you find the MSC box car? (Hint,
it is only partially visible.)
From Tony:


Road       XM box cars     Percent of the "Top 21"

PRR                62115             12.3
NYC                58748             11.7
SP + T&NO          34815              6.9
ATSF               32499              6.5
MILW               28075              5.6
B&O                25634              5.1
UP                 24111              4.8
CNW + CMO          23658              4.7
Southern           22807              4.5
CBQ + subs         22592              4.5
GN                 21652              4.3
C&O + PM           20720              4.1
MP + subs          20461              4.1
IC                 20013              4.0
NP                 19201              3.8
RI                 18857              3.7
L&N                12664              2.5
SL-SF              12529              2.5
ACL                11813              2.2
Seaboard           10075              2.0

Total of the "Top 21," 503039

       Once I'd made this list, I was amused to note that a few of
Ted
Culotta's "Essential Freight Cars" are from roads not shown here, such
as Lehigh Valley, Soo Line, Wabash, and Katy, but several major
ones on
this list have not (yet) been covered by Ted, such as C&O + PM, or
L&N.
But overall, Ted's coverage pretty largely does nail this list.
         My own view is that any railroad not on this list, no matter
how "fun" or attractive to model, is going to have to be treated as a
"rarity seldom seen" for my operations--that is, within the G-N
universe: foreigns from next nearest neighbors or beyond.

Tony Thompson
Tim & Tony have found my weak spot.

I lack the the data Tony has quoted, but in 1943 the top 21 roads
possessed 73% of the XM, XA, XAP fleet (I'm assuming that during WWII
even the auto-box cars were pooled, since autos were not being
produced for domestic consumption, so I have lumped them together for
estimating boxcar fleet percentages).

As I proposed in a previous post, fiddling appears to be necessary to
provide the occasional "odd" car in the cars arriving on-layout from
staging. But some intersting statistics for the "Top 21" can provide
insight into how "random" car distribution can be.

For a train with 20 boxcars arriving on scene (and this is for boxcars
used for general merchandise on a line that is NOT serving industries
that use a significant population of cars in captive service), on
average, about 15 cars would be from the "top 21" roads, and 5 from
"lesser" roads.

But statistics can predict the "distribution" of this ratio of "top
21" to "lesser" roads:

- 0.3% of the trains would have ALL "top 21" roads (1 train in 300)

- 2.1% of the trains would have only one "lesser" road box car (1
train in 48)

- 6.5% of the trains would have two "lesser" road boxcars

- 13.2% of the trains would have three "lesser" box cars

- 19.5% of the trains would have four "lesser" box cars

- 22% of the trains would have five "lesser" box cars

- 17.4% of the trains would have six "lesser" box cars

- 11.3% of the trains would have seven "lesser" box cars

- 6% of the trains would have eight "lesser" box cars

- 2.7% of the trains would have nine "lesser" box cars

- 1% of the trains would have ten of the "lesser" road box cars - note
that the this is 1 in 100 trains dispatched will have DOUBLE the the
"average" number of expected "lesser" road cars.

What does this mean - more fiddling!

Two weeke ago I posted some theoretical projections concerning
probabilities of a specific road's boxcars appearing on a layout. I
proposed the concept of three fleets - the "full-time" fleet composed
of dominant roads that would be represented by at least one car per op
session, a small fiddle pool to draw from of roads that should appear
one to five times out of every 6 op sessions, and a second fiddle pool
from which a few cars would be drawn each session, and then stored
away for at least five sessions. The premise was that after six
sessions even the PP would not remember seeing that MSC car. (I also
mentioned that the longer the PP's memory, the larger the "rare"
fiddle pool needs to be.)

Continuing with the "six session" memory limit of the PP, and if one
dispatches 5 trains with 20 boxcars per session, one would expect some
surprises:

- One of the 30 trains could legitimately have only 11 "top 21"
boxcars out of the 20 boxcars. Based on last week's thread, I would
recommend against both the MSC and MWR cars being in the same train,
but Ted's essential LV and SOO cars could help fill out this train ;-)

- Unless you have a train that is normally composed of cars used in
dedicated service, DO NOT makeup a train of only "top 21" boxcars -
the PP may cite you for that one.

- Slightly over half (18 out of the 30) trains should have 4-6
"lesser" road cars per train,

- The PP may not cite you for the train with only one "lesser" road car.

- The remaining ten trains could have either 2, 3, 7 or 8 "lesser"
road boxcars in each train.

One should note that in a five train op session, an extra 10 "top 21"
and "lesser" road boxcars would be necessary to create the illusion of
the prototype's "randomness". Bigger sessions, and bigger trains would
actually need even more cars to simulate this diversity.

Conclusion: More stage fiddling is warranted, and the boxcar fleet
will need to be expanded a little bit more to "simulate" the
prototype's randomness.

While this further justifes a boxcar collection larger than can fit on
a layout, it also requires more "fiddle" pool storage space adjacent
to the staging tracks, and more fiddling either between sessions, or
even during sesions if trains are used more than once per session.

As for pictures, what does this mean? In 30 yard pictures with 20
identifiable box cars each, the distributions are the same as above.
Is that MSC car a "surprise"? Not really. In each photo there is a
good chance of a "surprise" car. Our reaction to an MWR car in
Baltimore would be similar. But if all 20 cars were "top 21" cars,
then that WOULD be surprising. Mix your staging trains accordingly.

Naturally all of this is theoretical, your mileage may vary...

Dave Evans




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Al,

Not so bad at all, especially for a 40' boxcar in our era. Considering that the C&O served a lot of important industries in the midwest (not just auto plants), the chances of finding a C&O car in the West would be high. I'm racking my brains right now for an example from some of my books, but can't think of any. I have at least one photo showing a C&O box car in an SN freight train east of Oakland, photographed by Will Whittaker in the 1940s or 1950s. In 1975 I photographed a C&O 40' PS-1 in Downey, California. That's out of our era, of course, but is another example.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

water.kresse@... wrote:

What are the chances of finding a C&O or PM non-coal freight car west of the Mississippi River?


You see pix of C&O gons with scrap aluminum way out in LA. I guess there were GM assembly plants in Norwalk and Van Nyes, CA, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, and St. Louis . . . . having auto parts box cars that needed something to bring back east and the end of auto-loader boxes after WW2.


Al Kresse


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Al Kresse writes:

"What are the chances of finding a C&O or PM non-coal freight car west of the Mississippi River?"

Not bad at all. On pg 101 of the Big Boy Portraits is an overhead shot of Laramie, WY. Box cars are C&O, Frisco, CN, 2 SP's, T&P, IC, NC&STL and a bunch of UP. What does this mean? Nothing...except that these cars were in Laramie in August 25,1956. So...if you were looking in August 25, 1956, and you were in Laramie...well...where else would you go?...your chances would be 1 out of 1...IOW, not bad at all.

Mike Brock


Richard Brennan <brennan8@...>
 

C&O SD box car at the Cadillac dealership in Tacoma... Dec 1956:
http://search.tacomapubliclibrary.org/images/dt6n.asp?un=1&pg=1&krequest=TPL-8153

Note contrast in height to the adjacent Espee car...

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 06:45 AM 2/17/2009, Garth G. Groff wrote:
Al,

Not so bad at all, especially for a 40' boxcar in our era. Considering
that the C&O served a lot of important industries in the midwest (not
just auto plants), the chances of finding a C&O car in the West would be
high. I'm racking my brains right now for an example from some of my
books, but can't think of any. I have at least one photo showing a C&O
box car in an SN freight train east of Oakland, photographed by Will
Whittaker in the 1940s or 1950s. In 1975 I photographed a C&O 40' PS-1
in Downey, California. That's out of our era, of course, but is another
example.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

water.kresse@... wrote:
What are the chances of finding a C&O or PM non-coal freight car
west of the Mississippi River?



You see pix of C&O gons with scrap aluminum way out in LA. I
guess there were GM assembly plants in Norwalk and Van Nyes, CA, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, and St. Louis . . . . having auto parts box cars that needed something to bring back east and the end of auto-loader boxes after WW2.


asychis@...
 

"I used the Nelson Gilbert theory to distribute the boxcars as the basis for
my fleet."

Can someone enlighten me on this? I looked in the files section for
something along this line and didn't come up with anything.

On another topic, the discussion about box cars on the layout seems to
center on what was on the mainline of major railroads. I take it that a branch
line or short line would have a very different makeup. For instance cars on
the Missouri Pacific Southern Illinois coal field area I model would be mainly
hoppers (obviously), and a lot of repeat cars for on-line customers. Since
there is very little bridge traffic, it seems to me that the roster of all
cars would be much narrower in scope, and could be skewed significantly toward
just a few types. The catch is to find some information on local businesses
and than make assumptions on what types of cars they would require. Since no
wheel reports exist that I have been able to find, and photos of anything but
locomotives (and hoppers) are rare, freight cars occurring on this line are
going to be a guess.

Jerry Michels
**************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003)


Michael Aufderheide
 

Tony,
 
This is good information.  I wonder if we are able to put a finer point on it.  I had an idea that using Larry Ostrich's 1950 ORER spreadsheet, one could determine specific cars which should be "essential" based on pure numbers and percentages of the national fleet.  This doesn't preclude me building more unsual cars for the fun of it (i.e., the RI 50 foot Westerfield I'm working on now), but it informs me of what the real baseline of the national fleet was, and how it should be represented on my layout.  
 
For my proposed boxcar fleet of 200, I know that every car that represents 1/200th of the national fleet must be modeled.  For the 714,637 cars listed on that ORER this would mean any class of car with more than about 3,500 cars (1/2% for my 200 cars). As a rough example, if there were 29,000 odd X29s then my fleet would have 8 on the layout. For the 6,600 A31As I'll need 2 cars.  I've rounded the number in this case, which will happen often.  The goal is not to hit exactly 200 cars, but for the fleet to be generally representative.
 
Of course, the many caviats about freight cars fleets that you and others have mentioned apply, but this is an important starting point.
 
I understand that someone presented this same idea at Cocoa Beach, so maybe the information already exists?
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide

--- On Tue, 2/17/09, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Box cars on your layout
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 12:34 AM






Having mulled over the box car fleet problem for awhile, and being
cognizant of the Gilbert-Nelson approach (for FOREIGN cars on a
railroad, and probably primarily for next nearest neighbors, not
immediate neighbors), I thought I would construct a table of the
biggest box car owners (meaning 10,000 or more XM box cars owned). For
me, these are the "foreigns" that ought to primarily show up on a
layout in interchange.
There are no real surprises here, except that some tabulations
have omitted subsidiary roads, such as C&O's Pere Marquette or Mopac's
Gulf Coast Lines. These do represent different reporting marks but the
same railroad parentage. In all cases where the ORER has separate
entries for subsidiaries, I've included them below.
I've shown percentages, not of the total North American or U.S.
fleet, but of these "Top 21" roads, owning 10,000 or more XM box cars.
Note that auto cars of all types (XML, XME, XAP, etc.) are omitted.
Data are for January 1953.

Road XM box cars Percent of the "Top 21"
PRR 62115 12.3
NYC 58748 11.7
SP + T&NO 34815 6.9
ATSF 32499 6.5
MILW 28075 5.6
B&O 25634 5.1
UP 24111 4.8
CNW + CMO 23658 4.7
Southern 22807 4.5
CBQ + subs 22592 4.5
GN 21652 4.3
C&O + PM 20720 4.1
MP + subs 20461 4.1
IC 20013 4.0
NP 19201 3.8
RI 18857 3.7
L&N 12664 2.5
SL-SF 12529 2.5
ACL 11813 2.2
Seaboard 10075 2.0

Total of the "Top 21," 503039

Once I'd made this list, I was amused to note that a few of Ted
Culotta's "Essential Freight Cars" are from roads not shown here, such
as Lehigh Valley, Soo Line, Wabash, and Katy, but several major ones on
this list have not (yet) been covered by Ted, such as C&O + PM, or L&N.
But overall, Ted's coverage pretty largely does nail this list.
My own view is that any railroad not on this list, no matter
how "fun" or attractive to model, is going to have to be treated as a
"rarity seldom seen" for my operations-- that is, within the G-N
universe: foreigns from next nearest neighbors or beyond.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Mike: That someone was me and I have the data for all the Large Steam RR's
from the ICC Bluebook, and some selected (I.e. Ones that interested me)
smaller railroads from the July 1957 ORER. I did as you described looking at
the railroad (or region first) then looking at each class. In my case I have
not been able to fine wheel reports, switch lists or other primary souce
material for my prototype, so I used the Nelson Gilbert theory to distribute
the boxcars as the basis for my fleet.

If you model 1950 your data would be different.

Brian Carlson.
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:44:16 -0800 (PST), Mike Aufderheide wrote
Tony,
�
This is good information.� I wonder if we are able to put a finer
point on it.��I had�an idea that using Larry Ostrich's 1950 ORER
spreadsheet, one could determine specific cars which�should be
"essential" based on pure numbers and percentages of the national
fleet.� This doesn't preclude me building more unsual cars for the
fun of it (i.e., the RI 50 foot Westerfield I'm working on now), but
it informs me of what the real baseline of the national fleet was,
and how it�should be represented on my layout. � � For�my
proposed�boxcar�fleet of 200, I�know�that�every car that represents
1/200th of the national fleet must be modeled.� For the 714,637 cars
listed on that ORER this would mean any class of car with more than
about 3,500 cars (1/2% for my 200 cars). As a rough example,�if
there�were 29,000 odd X29s then my fleet would have 8 on the layout.
For the 6,600 A31As�I'll need 2 cars.� I've rounded�the number in
this case, which will happen often.� The goal is not to hit exactly
200 cars, but for the fleet to be generally representative. � Of
course, the many caviats about freight cars fleets that you and
others have�mentioned apply, but this is an important starting
point. � I understand that someone presented this same�idea at�Cocoa
Beach, so maybe the information already exists? � Regards, � Mike
Aufderheide


Michael Aufderheide
 

Brian,
 
I model 1947, but the 1950 ORER is a good stand-in.  Your 1957 data would be too far out for me.  I'm heartened to hear that someone else thought it was a good idea!  I'll get going on the counts for 1950.
 
Thanks,
 
Mike Aufderheide

--- On Tue, 2/17/09, Brian J Carlson <brian@...> wrote:

From: Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Box cars on your layout
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 11:56 AM






Mike: That someone was me and I have the data for all the Large Steam RR's
from the ICC Bluebook, and some selected (I.e. Ones that interested me)
smaller railroads from the July 1957 ORER. I did as you described looking at
the railroad (or region first) then looking at each class. In my case I have
not been able to fine wheel reports, switch lists or other primary souce
material for my prototype, so I used the Nelson Gilbert theory to distribute
the boxcars as the basis for my fleet.

If you model 1950 your data would be different.

Brian Carlson.
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:44:16 -0800 (PST), Mike Aufderheide wrote
Tony,
 
This is good information.  I wonder if we are able to put a finer
point on it.  I had an idea that using Larry Ostrich's 1950 ORER
spreadsheet, one could determine specific cars which should be
"essential" based on pure numbers and percentages of the national
fleet.  This doesn't preclude me building more unsual cars for the
fun of it (i.e., the RI 50 foot Westerfield I'm working on now), but
it informs me of what the real baseline of the national fleet was,
and how it should be represented on my layout.     For my
proposed boxcar  fleet of 200, I know that every car that represents
1/200th of the national fleet must be modeled.  For the 714,637 cars
listed on that ORER this would mean any class of car with more than
about 3,500 cars (1/2% for my 200 cars). As a rough example, if
there were 29,000 odd X29s then my fleet would have 8 on the layout.
For the 6,600 A31As I'll need 2 cars.  I've rounded the number in
this case, which will happen often.  The goal is not to hit exactly
200 cars, but for the fleet to be generally representative.   Of
course, the many caviats about freight cars fleets that you and
others have mentioned apply, but this is an important starting
point.   I understand that someone presented this same idea at Cocoa
Beach, so maybe the information already exists?   Regards,   Mike
Aufderheide

















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Aufderheide wrote:
Tony, 
This is good information.  I wonder if we are able to put a finer
point on it.  I had an idea that using Larry Ostrich's 1950 ORER
spreadsheet, one could determine specific cars which should be
"essential" based on pure numbers and percentages of the national
fleet. 
Exactly. My list only tells you the RAILROADS to be represented.
Additional info such as the Ostrich lists is need to identify which
CARS to have. Of course, many, many of the ones we need are not
available as models or reasonable kitbashes, but many of them are quite
available.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
That's a nice list Tony. But something (math?) tells me that a railroad with 1% of the fleet should show up 1/2 as often (average) as one with 2%. I think for my club layout, which has a fleet size in the many hundreds of cars, that a "Top 40" or "Top 50" is called for.
You're right. The list is for smaller fleets. As the fleet gets bigger and bigger, you would need a longer and longer list of the type I posted.

Maybe what we need is the G-N Corollary to the Mike Brock Axiom "Every freight train must have at least one NP car". This new corollary is "Out of 100 car trips, at least one should be a real oddball".
Well said <g>. Maybe you can work on the "Top 21" oddball list. <vbg>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Kresse wrote:
What are the chances of finding a C&O or PM non-coal freight car west
of the Mississippi River? 
Much better than finding a coal car <g>. I have several West
Coast photos of yards and freight trains in which C&O box cars or
gondolas can be seen, and PM auto cars.
When I made up my "Top 21" list, I also tabulated gondolas and
flat cars, though I didn't trouble to report them.

I guess there were GM assembly plants in Norwalk and Van Nyes, CA,
Oklahoma City, Kansas City, and St. Louis . . . . having auto parts
box cars that needed something to bring back east and the end of
auto-loader boxes after WW2.
Nope. Those auto parts cars were in assigned service and went
right back to the plant that produced the auto parts they were
carrying. It may not have been the "just in time" era but schedules
were quite firm for parts deliveries, and you can bet lots of people
worked hard to PREVENT any wandering of auto parts empties.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

I should mention that Tim Gilbert's file that is still in the files section
of the STMFC contains data for 1946 and 1947 also.
Brian.

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:03:15 -0800 (PST), Mike Aufderheide wrote
Brian,
�
I model 1947, but the 1950 ORER is�a good stand-in.� Your 1957 data
would be too far out for me.� I'm heartened to hear that someone
else thought it was a good idea!� I'll get going on the counts for 1950.
�
Thanks,
�
Mike Aufderheide

--- On Tue, 2/17/09, Brian J Carlson <brian@...> wrote:

From: Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Box cars on your layout
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 11:56 AM

Mike: That someone was me and I have the data for all the Large
Steam RR's from the ICC Bluebook, and some selected (I.e. Ones that
interested me) smaller railroads from the July 1957 ORER. I did as
you described looking at the railroad (or region first) then looking
at each class. In my case I have not been able to fine wheel reports,
switch lists or other primary souce material for my prototype, so I
used the Nelson Gilbert theory to distribute the boxcars as the
basis for my fleet.

If you model 1950 your data would be different.

Brian Carlson.
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:44:16 -0800 (PST), Mike Aufderheide wrote
Tony,
�
This is good information.� I wonder if we are able to put a finer
point on it.��I had�an idea that using Larry Ostrich's 1950 ORER
spreadsheet, one could determine specific cars which�should be
"essential" based on pure numbers and percentages of the national
fleet.� This doesn't preclude me building more unsual cars for the
fun of it (i.e., the RI 50 foot Westerfield I'm working on now), but
it informs me of what the real baseline of the national fleet was,
and how it�should be represented on my layout. � � For�my
proposed�boxcar� fleet of 200, I�know�that�every car that represents
1/200th of the national fleet must be modeled.� For the 714,637 cars
listed on that ORER this would mean any class of car with more than
about 3,500 cars (1/2% for my 200 cars). As a rough example,�if
there�were 29,000 odd X29s then my fleet would have 8 on the layout.
For the 6,600 A31As�I'll need 2 cars.� I've rounded�the number in
this case, which will happen often.� The goal is not to hit exactly
200 cars, but for the fleet to be generally representative. � Of
course, the many caviats about freight cars fleets that you and
others have�mentioned apply, but this is an important starting
point. � I understand that someone presented this same�idea at�Cocoa
Beach, so maybe the information already exists? � Regards, � Mike
Aufderheide


------------------------------------

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Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org)


SUVCWORR@...
 

Andy,

Was the MCK gon loaded with pipe? This might explain its presence in
California. MCK was a US Steel owned line that served the National Tube Company's
(subsidiary of USS) Christy Park Works and Tube Works in McKeesport, PA.
National Tube was the world's largest producer of seamless pipe.

Rich Orr

In a message dated 2/17/2009 2:05:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
asperandeo@... writes:

In addition to Mike's examples, try going to atsfrr.net and looking at the
photos under "Company Store"/"Jack Whitmeyer Collection"/"Miscellaneous
Rolling Stock." You'll find boxcars from the B&LE, BAR, C&O, GTW, N&W, NYC, and
Southern, all of which were in Southern California in the late 1940s. Most were
shot in Riverside; the BAR car was in San Bernardino. For what it's worth,
the collection also includes gondola 1042 from the McKeesport Connecting in
San Bernardino in 1952. The MKC only had 100 cars at the time, all type GB gons
in the series 1000-1099, so on the date of that photo at least one percent
of its entire roster was in California!

So long,

Andy





**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
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Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

In addition to Mike's examples, try going to atsfrr.net and looking at the photos under "Company Store"/"Jack Whitmeyer Collection"/"Miscellaneous Rolling Stock." You'll find boxcars from the B&LE, BAR, C&O, GTW, N&W, NYC, and Southern, all of which were in Southern California in the late 1940s. Most were shot in Riverside; the BAR car was in San Bernardino. For what it's worth, the collection also includes gondola 1042 from the McKeesport Connecting in San Bernardino in 1952. The MKC only had 100 cars at the time, all type GB gons in the series 1000-1099, so on the date of that photo at least one percent of its entire roster was in California!

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


SHAY STARK
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:



What are the chances of finding a C&O or PM non-coal freight car
west of the Mississippi River? 

I am currently going through and printing negatives that my uncle
took on the Utah, Idaho Central an Interurban line which ran between
Ogden, Utah and Preston, Idaho via the Cache Valley. These
photographs represent either two or three trips taken across the line
after he returned from serving in Korea until the lines demise in
1947 so roughly a little less than a two year period. He was not very
interested in freight cars at the time so freight cars are usually in
the background of his pictures.

Being a local line serving smaller local typically agricultural based
industries I am surprised what I have found in the pictures.

One series of pictures was taken at the Logan yard. This was a small
four track yard on the side of the Interurban Depot with tracks being
only long enough to fit maybe four or five cars apiece. The occasion
was that the motor car they had come in on failed and so while
waiting for the next train my uncle shot a sequence of pictures
showing the motor car being placed in the yard with the local
switcher and also pictures of one of the UIC homemade cabooses that
was spotted in the yard and used as an office. In his two shots of
the caboose several interesting cars can be found in the background.
A C&O 40' steel rebuilt boxcar, a Illinois Central 40 foot steel
boxcar, a CNW 40 foot steel boxcar, a Utah Coal Route gs gondola and
a D&RGW gs gondola. When the switcher moves the dead Interurban car
into the yard it has a Reading gondola that looks to be built out of
a 40 foot flat car with wood sides as an idler between the locomotive
and the motor car.

A shot of a freight locomotive rolling through Logan again taken at
the Interurban Depot shows a M&STL USRA double sheathed box car
behind the locomotive. Another picture taken on the UIC by another
photographer and published in the Interurbans of Utah by Ira Swett
also shows a M&STL USRA Double sheathed boxcar behind an Interurban
car.

Other pictures of these trips also detail several other lesser road
boxcars in the back ground of shots such as a 50 foot single sheathed
single door NP box car, a Great Northern 40 foot double sheathed
boxcar, a GTW single sheathed box car, and a Frisco 40 foot single
sheathed boxcar. While several Union Pacific and D&RGW boxcars are
rightly found in the pictures the only other major roads which show
up are Pennsylvania and ATSF. In fact between boxcars and refers one
might come to a conclusion that ATSF was an interchange partner due
to the frequency of appearances in this particular group of pictures.

I realize that these are random events and a very small sample but I
found it very interesting the great variety of railroads represented
on a relatively isolated line.

Also of interest as I look through pictures of the Bamberger Railroad
I have found examples of nearly every boxcar that is mentioned on
this list and in the various freight car books at some point or
another. Even though it was only 36 miles long, the Bamberger had a
great variety of industries on line and two significant freight
terminals which seemed to attract a great variety of cars. I even
have a picture of a Buffalo Creek Flour boxcar and the end of what I
think is probably a MWL boxcar as it looks to be a light color and
looks like a Mather boxcar on the Bamberger.


Dave Nelson
 

In my case I have not been able to fine wheel reports, switch lists or
other primary souce
material for my prototype, so I used the Nelson Gilbert theory to
distribute the boxcars
as the basis for my fleet.
Some care should be given to using the ORER data straight off the page as
the ORER is a list of cars assigned to a number series for a given mark, not
cars of an identical design for that mark, not cars of an identical design
for the same railroad. Some roads, like PRR do provide the basic design
info but the vast majority do not.

I've tried to model the design factor for application in my ORER database
and have found it exceedingly difficult to nail down. It's easy enough for
a single issue... You just add another field and start to fill in the data.
What makes things harder is recording data across multiple years (the car
series the design was assigned to can change w/ renumberings or specific
assignments). Further complexity comes in when one considers there have
have been multiple builders for a design, multiple builders for a car
series, with distinctly different appliances used by a car builder. Which
may change over time. And of course the consolidation of marks (e.g., the
NOR mark, owned by the NYC, becomes the NYC mark).

So if you're objective is to find the most common cars in any given series,
by all means, use the ORER. But if it is the design itself that you want
then be prepared for a bit extra work to get the correct answer (or to have
a willingness to overlook certain details).

Dave Nelson


water.kresse@...
 

Richard,



Great shot of the galvanized roof on an older ex-PM box repainted after mid-1954.   Roof shots are hard to find it seems.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Brennan" <brennan8@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:27:35 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Box cars on your layout

C&O SD box car at the Cadillac dealership in Tacoma...  Dec 1956:
http://search.tacomapubliclibrary.org/images/dt6n.asp?un=1&pg=1&krequest=TPL-8153

Note contrast in height to the adjacent Espee car...

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 06:45 AM 2/17/2009, Garth G. Groff wrote:
Al,

Not so bad at all, especially for a 40' boxcar in our era. Considering
that the C&O served a lot of important industries in the midwest (not
just auto plants), the chances of finding a C&O car in the West would be
high. I'm racking my brains right now for an example from some of my
books, but can't think of any. I have at least one photo showing a C&O
box car in an SN freight train east of Oakland, photographed by Will
Whittaker in the 1940s or 1950s. In 1975 I photographed a C&O 40' PS-1
in Downey, California. That's out of our era, of course, but is another
example.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

water.kresse@... wrote:
What are the chances of finding a C&O or PM non-coal freight car
west of the Mississippi River?



You see pix of C&O gons with scrap aluminum way out in LA.  I
guess there were GM assembly plants in Norwalk and Van Nyes, CA,
Oklahoma City, Kansas City, and St. Louis . . . . having auto parts
box cars that needed something to bring back east and the end of
auto-loader boxes after WW2.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]