tank car question


Tim O'Connor
 

what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large

Tim O'Connor


William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Tim,

That is an ALCO switcher...oh... you mean that round thingy... looks
like a bolted flange for a clean out hatch. Note that it has a support
structure for when it is in the open position. Not sure what would be
the load or why such a clean out procedure would be required. Very
interesting none the less.

Cheers,
-- Bill Keene
Irvine, Ca

On Feb 25, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large

Tim O'Connor



Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tim;



I can only speculate that it is an access hatch, but I have never seen
anything quite like it.



I am even more interested in what CISX is, as the CIS Corp. was
Carnegie-Illinois Steel, one of the component companies of U.S. Steel. The
name stayed in common usage into the 50's, so they may be cars used in the
by-products end of the biz. Given that USS made enormous quantities of
commodities like coal tar and creosote (as well as less viscous products like
light oils, naphthalene, toluene, xylol and others), this may be a coal tar
car with a clean-out.



The presence of platforms on these cars is also interesting. Most of the
time that indicates a facility that had no raised loading platform(s), but it
may also be an end users thing, as these cars were normally not bottom
valved, and the loading platform with top-loading piping are readily evident.



There is also a beautiful 3-dome, with a larger center dome, in the back.
This car being in a mix of single dome 103's is a feature I have seen
numerous times in photos of facilities like the by-products plant at
Clairton, but also at refineries where they are distilling gasoline, and also
different grades of oil, like light oils, motor lubricants, etc.



I cannot wait to hear what Richard has to say about these cars.



Another great photo! Thanks, Tim!



Elden Gatwood







________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:55 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] tank car question



what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large
<http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large>

Tim O'Connor


Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
 

what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large

Tim O'Connor
.
Tim,

I can't help you with your question but thanks for the great photos.

This one is very interesting. Some questions are interspersed with my comments below.

It confirms what most on this list already know
a.. There was quite a variety of tank cars in size shape a detail.
b.. Most tank cars were plain black
c.. Three compartment cars are smaller, common models like athearn are way to large. Note the three compartment car in the upper right of the photo. It is noticeably smaller that nearby cars. I don't recall seeing a multi compartment car next to other tank cars and the size difference is obvious by comparison. (perhaps also a converted car as the end domes are smaller than the middle dome.)
What is the age of the photo?
a.. I see no radial course cars
b.. I see many cars that appear welded with no obvious rivet lines

Interesting details
a.. The platforms on the full platform cars seem heavy. Maybe the platforms on some of the plastic models aren't so crude after all.
b.. My perception (Which perhaps comes from the model world) is that full platform cars were much more common on insulated cars. Yet I see a high percentage on non insulated cars in this photo.
c.. Seeing a person in close proximity to the manway, I am surprised how small the manways were. It must have been a squeeze to get into a car.
d.. On the first track to the left, take note of the second car that has a dome showing. It has a circular grab all the way around the dome. I haven't noticed this before and yet it is on at least a few cars in the photo.
e.. The car to the upper right of the diesel cab has lateral running boards around the dome. I have seen this before and probably needs to be modeled more frequently. I can't think of a single model available that has this. Would this have been an option tank car builders offered for standard designs or would this have been a trademark of a particular builder or tank car owner?
f.. Perhaps most interesting of all is again the second car (with a dome showing, 3rd car if you include the partial car in front) in the left most row ahs an odd arrangement of rivet lines. Could this be a 5 course car?
Ned Carey
As Eldon just said I can't wait to hear what Richard has to say about this one.


al_brown03
 

Indeed, reporting marks CISX belonged to Carnegie-Illinois Steel. The
1/43 ORER lists one 87'6' 263-ton depressed-center flat, five
hoppers, and 30 tank cars. The reporting marks and the company are
gone from the 1/53 ORER.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
<elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Tim;



I can only speculate that it is an access hatch, but I have never
seen
anything quite like it.



I am even more interested in what CISX is, as the CIS Corp. was
Carnegie-Illinois Steel, one of the component companies of U.S.
Steel. The
name stayed in common usage into the 50's, so they may be cars used
in the
by-products end of the biz. Given that USS made enormous
quantities of
commodities like coal tar and creosote (as well as less viscous
products like
light oils, naphthalene, toluene, xylol and others), this may be a
coal tar
car with a clean-out.



The presence of platforms on these cars is also interesting. Most
of the
time that indicates a facility that had no raised loading platform
(s), but it
may also be an end users thing, as these cars were normally not
bottom
valved, and the loading platform with top-loading piping are
readily evident.



There is also a beautiful 3-dome, with a larger center dome, in the
back.
This car being in a mix of single dome 103's is a feature I have
seen
numerous times in photos of facilities like the by-products plant at
Clairton, but also at refineries where they are distilling
gasoline, and also
different grades of oil, like light oils, motor lubricants, etc.



I cannot wait to hear what Richard has to say about these cars.



Another great photo! Thanks, Tim!



Elden Gatwood







________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 12:55 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] tank car question



what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large
<http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large>

Tim O'Connor





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


sunbeam13n14
 

Tim -
 
It is a "blind flange." that is, one that covers or terminates the end of a run of pipe or a pressure vessel.
This car must have had the capability of handling pressurized loads. It is most likely a clean out point being located at the bottom of the car. A steel or cast iron flange that size would be heavy and hard to handle at arms length so a bracket was attached to the end of the car with a "handle" attached to allow the flange to be swung(?) out of the way when it needed to be taken off of its mating surface. It is also a big help aligning all those bolts when replacing it.
 
Frank

--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Ned Carey <nedspam@...> wrote:


From: Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] tank car question
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 12:26 PM







what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0. google.com/ hosted/images/ c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b 6c72_large

Tim O'Connor
..
Tim,

I can't help you with your question but thanks for the great photos.

This one is very interesting. Some questions are interspersed with my comments below.

It confirms what most on this list already know
a.. There was quite a variety of tank cars in size shape a detail.
b.. Most tank cars were plain black
c.. Three compartment cars are smaller, common models like athearn are way to large. Note the three compartment car in the upper right of the photo. It is noticeably smaller that nearby cars. I don't recall seeing a multi compartment car next to other tank cars and the size difference is obvious by comparison. (perhaps also a converted car as the end domes are smaller than the middle dome.)
What is the age of the photo?
a.. I see no radial course cars
b.. I see many cars that appear welded with no obvious rivet lines

Interesting details
a.. The platforms on the full platform cars seem heavy. Maybe the platforms on some of the plastic models aren't so crude after all.
b.. My perception (Which perhaps comes from the model world) is that full platform cars were much more common on insulated cars. Yet I see a high percentage on non insulated cars in this photo.
c.. Seeing a person in close proximity to the manway, I am surprised how small the manways were. It must have been a squeeze to get into a car.
d.. On the first track to the left, take note of the second car that has a dome showing. It has a circular grab all the way around the dome. I haven't noticed this before and yet it is on at least a few cars in the photo.
e.. The car to the upper right of the diesel cab has lateral running boards around the dome. I have seen this before and probably needs to be modeled more frequently. I can't think of a single model available that has this. Would this have been an option tank car builders offered for standard designs or would this have been a trademark of a particular builder or tank car owner?
f.. Perhaps most interesting of all is again the second car (with a dome showing, 3rd car if you include the partial car in front) in the left most row ahs an odd arrangement of rivet lines. Could this be a 5 course car?
Ned Carey
As Eldon just said I can't wait to hear what Richard has to say about this one.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Andy Carlson
 

Notice that the 2 CISX cars are 4 course tank cars. Maybe Bob Gould should have done this car.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Ned Carey" <nedspam@...> commented:
c.. Seeing a person in close proximity to the manway, I am
surprised how small the manways were. It must have been a squeeze to
get into a car.



In the early '80s I worked for small specialy chemical manfacturer
Kay-Fries in Stony Point, NY.

One night I was surprised to see welding arc light coming out the top
of a reactor with a flanged opening much smaller than the one at the
end of the tank car. The man inside turned out to the oldest (and
smallest) man in the shop.

It must have been scary going into that tank car for the first time.

I'm surprised more tank cars didn't have clean out hatches.

I think it was common for men to go into covered hoppers.

Ed


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 26, 2009, at 7:46 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:
Notice that the 2 CISX cars are 4 course tank cars. Maybe Bob Gould
should have done this car.




It was Bill, not Bob, and yes, he should have. But then, it's an
early AC&F Type 21, which is the car that Life-Like modeled very well.

Richard Hendrickson


mopacfirst
 

In the pressure vessel business, that thing that supports the manway
flange would be called a 'davit'. Typically it's specified for any
flanges that are too heavy for one man to handle, which often means
100 lb or more.

Manway flanges were once as small as 16" or 18" nominal size, now are
normally 24", but workers are bigger now.

Ron Merrick


--- In STMFC@..., William Keene <wakeene@...> wrote:

Tim,

That is an ALCO switcher...oh... you mean that round thingy...
looks
like a bolted flange for a clean out hatch. Note that it has a
support
structure for when it is in the open position. Not sure what would
be
the load or why such a clean out procedure would be required.
Very
interesting none the less.

Cheers,
-- Bill Keene
Irvine, Ca


On Feb 25, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large

Tim O'Connor


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 26, 2009, at 4:26 AM, Ned Carey wrote:
what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large

Tim O'Connor






As Frank Fertitta observed, it's some sort of unusually large
cleanout cover with some sort of small crane arrangement to support
it when unbolted from the tank end. What Carnegie-Illinois Steel
might have been carrying in the cars that required a cleanout hole
that large I can't imagine, but it's big enough to admit a workman.
Frank's wrong in his speculation that the car was a high pressure
tank car of some sort, however, as it was listed in the ORERs as AAR
class TM, not TP. CISX 2774 was one of ten cars numbered 2772-2781
which were of 12,650 gal. capacity, unusually large for that day
(Note that the tank is visibly bigger than that on the 10,000 gal.
GATX car to the left). These ten cars were used to carry a non-
regulatory commodity, as is evident both from the stenciling on the
tank and the absence of safety valves - they had only frangible disk
vents. I'd be interested to learn from someone familiar with the
process of producing steel (Tony?) what that commodity might have
been. At any rate, They were AC&F Type 21s built in early the 1920s,
and the tank cleanouts were probably added later. The dome platforms
were homemade and were certainly added later.

Ned then observes:

It confirms what most on this list already know
a.. There was quite a variety of tank cars in size shape a detail.
b.. Most tank cars were plain black
c.. Three compartment cars are smaller, common models like athearn
are way to large. Note the three compartment car in the upper right
of the photo. It is noticeably smaller that nearby cars. I don't
recall seeing a multi compartment car next to other tank cars and
the size difference is obvious by comparison. (perhaps also a
converted car as the end domes are smaller than the middle dome.)









All true. The three compartment car appears to have been a 6,000 gal
single compartment car converted to three compartments. Such
conversions were fairly common (more often, though, on 8,000 gal.
cars), especially on GATX cars. 6 K gal. three compartment cars are
among the more obvious car types that need to be modeled in HO scale
(Micro-Trains has recent produced one in N scale). And Ned is, of
course, right that the old Athearn/AHM models are so grotesquely
oversize that they can't even be used as reasonable stand-ins for any
prototype cars.

What is the age of the photo?




Ca. 1942. Thee are a couple of GATX cars in the photo with features
(rod tank tie-downs instead of straps, full-circle dome handrails,
that weren't adopted earlier than late 1941), and all of the CISX
tank cars were gone from the ORERs by mid-1943.

a.. I see no radial course cars
b.. I see many cars that appear welded with no obvious rivet lines





There's one radial-course car way off in the distance, but certainly
they're largely absent from this photo. On the other hand, none of
the cars that are close enough for details to be made out appear to
be welded (and I've done some fiddling in Photoshop to bring up the
details as much as possible).
Interesting details
a.. The platforms on the full platform cars seem heavy. Maybe the
platforms onsome of the plastic models aren't so crude after all.
b.. My perception (Which perhaps comes from the model world) is
that full platform cars were much more common on insulated cars.
Yet I see a high percentage on non insulated cars in this photo.











Well, as noted earlier, the platforms on the cars close to the camera
were homemade, and very crude, additions. Dome platforms supplied by
the tank car builders were much more delicate.

c.. Seeing a person in close proximity to the manway, I am
surprised how small the manways were. It must have been a squeeze
to get into a car.




Yup. Fat guys would have had difficulty getting in and - worse-
getting out.

d.. On the first track to the left, take note of the second car
that has a dome showing. It has a circular grab all the way around
the dome. I haven't noticed this before and yet it is on at least a
few cars in the photo.






Standard GATC practice starting ca. 1941 but not generally adopted by
AC&F, the only other significant tank car mfr. by that date. Most of
the non-CISX cars I can identify in the photo are GATC built and
probably GATC owned. It appears that CISX had some sort of leasing/
maintenance arrangement with GATC, because in the 1930s they leased
cars from Pennsylvania-Conley, a wholly owned GATC subsidiary, and
that would account for the preponderance of GATC cars in the photo.

e.. The car to the upper right of the diesel cab has lateral
running boards around the dome. I have seen this before and
probably needs to be modeled more frequently. I can't think of a
single model available that has this. Would this have been an
option tank car builders offered for standard designs or would this
have been a trademark of a particular builder or tank car owner?










Tank car builder's may have provided those as an option, though I
can't recall seeing a builder's photo that shows them. However,
owners often added them on cars in assigned service where elevated
loading and/or unloading facilities weren't available. At any rate,
adding them on a model is very simple, if you're modeling a prototype
that had them.
f.. Perhaps most interesting of all is again the second car (with a
dome showing, 3rd car if you include the partial car in front) in
the left most row ahs an odd arrangement of rivet lines. Could this
be a 5 course car?





Yes, an arrangement unique, AFAIK, to GATC cars built in the early
war years, perhaps because larger pieces of steel weren't available.
There was a single bottom sheet, two side sheets, and two top sheets
with a rivet seam down the center as on three horizontal course cars.

Some other observations, for what they're worth.

The car whose tank end shows at the bottom of the photo was either a
Standard Tank Car Co. or Pennsylvania Tank Car Co. product, as
evidenced by the tank band location (PTC tanks were made by STC; PTC,
whose plant was next door to STC's, made only their own underframes
and smaller components like ladders and dome walkways). The next car
in the string at the left of the photo was GATX 18285, a 10K gal. car
built in 1926-'27.

All in all, as Ned says, a very interesting photo, though it would be
a mistake to over-generalize from it about tank cars as a whole.

Richard Hendrickson


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
The three compartment car appears to have been a 6,000 gal
single compartment car converted to three compartments. Such
conversions were fairly common (more often, though, on 8,000 gal.
cars), especially on GATX cars.
----- Original Message -----

How would they do that? I suppose they could take off the heads and slide the new ones inside the shell, but my guess is that the inside was far from a perfect cylinder which would make "sliding" heads in and getting a good circumferetial seal very difficult.

KL


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 26, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Kurt Laughlin wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
The three compartment car appears to have been a 6,000 gal
single compartment car converted to three compartments. Such
conversions were fairly common (more often, though, on 8,000 gal.
cars), especially on GATX cars.
----- Original Message -----

How would they do that? I suppose they could take off the heads and
slide
the new ones inside the shell, but my guess is that the inside was
far from
a perfect cylinder which would make "sliding" heads in and getting
a good
circumferetial seal very difficult.















Nevertheless, that's exactly how it was done, Kurt. I've sometimes
thought that they probably un-riveted the top seam, as well, since
they would have had to cut new openings for the end domes and bore
new holes for the dome flange rivets. But I've never found either a
photo or a witness's account of exactly how it was done.

Richard Hendrickson


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

I guess you can do just about anything if you have a big enough hammer.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson

From: Richard Hendrickson
The three compartment car appears to have been a 6,000 gal
single compartment car converted to three compartments. Such
conversions were fairly common (more often, though, on 8,000 gal.
cars), especially on GATX cars.
----- Original Message -----

How would they do that? I suppose they could take off the heads and slide
the new ones inside the shell, but my guess is that the inside was far from
a perfect cylinder which would make "sliding" heads in and getting a good
circumferetial seal very difficult.
Nevertheless, that's exactly how it was done, Kurt. I've sometimes thought that they probably un-riveted the top seam, as well, since they would have had to cut new openings for the end domes and bore new holes for the dome flange rivets. But I've never found either a photo or a witness's account of exactly how it was done.
----- Original Message -----


feddersenmark
 

---Note the end of the bottom most car in the photo...it overlaps the
sides of the cylinder of the car...and two sizes of rivets. I don't
recall ever seeing that before? Mark Feddersen







In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 26, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Kurt Laughlin wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
The three compartment car appears to have been a 6,000 gal
single compartment car converted to three compartments. Such
conversions were fairly common (more often, though, on 8,000 gal.
cars), especially on GATX cars.
----- Original Message -----

How would they do that? I suppose they could take off the heads
and
slide
the new ones inside the shell, but my guess is that the inside
was
far from
a perfect cylinder which would make "sliding" heads in and
getting
a good
circumferetial seal very difficult.















Nevertheless, that's exactly how it was done, Kurt. I've
sometimes
thought that they probably un-riveted the top seam, as well, since
they would have had to cut new openings for the end domes and bore
new holes for the dome flange rivets. But I've never found either
a
photo or a witness's account of exactly how it was done.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


feddersenmark
 

---Ignore my last post. I see now that it is a strap at the end of
the car obscuring the second row of rivets of the conventional end.
Sorry. MF







In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 26, 2009, at 3:57 PM, Kurt Laughlin wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
The three compartment car appears to have been a 6,000 gal
single compartment car converted to three compartments. Such
conversions were fairly common (more often, though, on 8,000 gal.
cars), especially on GATX cars.
----- Original Message -----

How would they do that? I suppose they could take off the heads
and
slide
the new ones inside the shell, but my guess is that the inside
was
far from
a perfect cylinder which would make "sliding" heads in and
getting
a good
circumferetial seal very difficult.















Nevertheless, that's exactly how it was done, Kurt. I've
sometimes
thought that they probably un-riveted the top seam, as well, since
they would have had to cut new openings for the end domes and bore
new holes for the dome flange rivets. But I've never found either
a
photo or a witness's account of exactly how it was done.

Richard Hendrickson





Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 26, 2009, at 4:26 AM, Ned Carey wrote:
what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large

Tim O'Connor
As Frank Fertitta observed, it's some sort of unusually large
cleanout cover with some sort of small crane arrangement to support
it when unbolted from the tank end. What Carnegie-Illinois Steel
might have been carrying in the cars that required a cleanout hole
that large I can't imagine, but it's big enough to admit a workman.
Everyone seems to be of the opinion that this plate is a cleanout; I
have a different take on the situation. I may be the only person on
this list who has ever had to enter a tankcar to clean it out; luckily
it had been steamed out years before, but left wet, I I was chipping
rust and washing it out before we put the car in service storing waste
oil fuel for the museum's oil burning steamer. The car was an 8,000
gal. UTLX car from the thirties.

I can see no reason to have a cleanout at the bottom of the tank head;
no workman is going to crawl in through the oil residue to enter the
car. The manway on the dome is much cleaner, and the cars have a
ladder leading down from the manway to the bottom. Yes, the manway was
small, but I was a lot skinnier then :-) Typical cleaning procedure,
from what I've been told, was to lower a rotating high pressure steam
/ water nozzle through the manway, and let the residue drain out the
bottom outlet. A man only entered for the final inspection, and to
buck rivets or caulk seams during tank repairs.

I have, however, seen tankcars with the steam connections for the
heater coils led out through the head rather than through the bottom
of the tank. What this looks like to me is that the heater was a
bundle of tubes with return bends, something like a locomotive
superheater, arranged so the whole unit could be extracted through
that hatch in the head and repaired outside the tank, rather than
having to do all the work in place. It's just a guess on my part, but
the other end may well have a similar hatch with the steam connections.

Dennis


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 26, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 26, 2009, at 4:26 AM, Ned Carey wrote:
what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large

Tim O'Connor
As Frank Fertitta observed, it's some sort of unusually large
cleanout cover with some sort of small crane arrangement to support
it when unbolted from the tank end. What Carnegie-Illinois Steel
might have been carrying in the cars that required a cleanout hole
that large I can't imagine, but it's big enough to admit a workman.
Everyone seems to be of the opinion that this plate is a cleanout; I
have a different take on the situation. I may be the only person on
this list who has ever had to enter a tankcar to clean it out; luckily
it had been steamed out years before, but left wet, I I was chipping
rust and washing it out before we put the car in service storing waste
oil fuel for the museum's oil burning steamer. The car was an 8,000
gal. UTLX car from the thirties.

I can see no reason to have a cleanout at the bottom of the tank head;
no workman is going to crawl in through the oil residue to enter the
car. The manway on the dome is much cleaner, and the cars have a
ladder leading down from the manway to the bottom. Yes, the manway was
small, but I was a lot skinnier then :-) Typical cleaning procedure,
from what I've been told, was to lower a rotating high pressure steam
/ water nozzle through the manway, and let the residue drain out the
bottom outlet. A man only entered for the final inspection, and to
buck rivets or caulk seams during tank repairs.

I have, however, seen tankcars with the steam connections for the
heater coils led out through the head rather than through the bottom
of the tank. What this looks like to me is that the heater was a
bundle of tubes with return bends, something like a locomotive
superheater, arranged so the whole unit could be extracted through
that hatch in the head and repaired outside the tank, rather than
having to do all the work in place. It's just a guess on my part, but
the other end may well have a similar hatch with the steam
connections.















































Dennis, you're assuming this car was in some sort of oil service, but
(as I pointed out in my post) it was stenciled for loading with non-
regulatory commodities only and had frangible disk vents instead of
spring-loaded safety valves, so whatever oil it might have carried
certainly wasn't petroleum based, if it was oil at all, and probably
would not have required a tank heater. I agree that big plate in the
end of CISX 2774 is overkill for a cleanout, and I'm open to an
alternative explanation of its purpose, but no one has, as yet, come
up with anything more plausible. I'm still hoping that someone on
the list who knows more about steel making than I do can come up with
an explanation (n.b. not just speculation) of what cargo those ten
cars were used to carry; we might then be better able to account for
the big round plate on the end.

Richard Hendrickson


Allen Rueter
 

From my summers in the steel mill, I don't remember any steel
production liquid byproducts, just slag, but coke production had a lot
of byproducts.

Maybe and educated guess can be made, loads weight/12,650 gals, we
could make a guess at the density. Then compare that to
tar/naptha/benzene/xylene/... Some coke plants had a flushing
liquor, but most of that was recycled.

Allen Rueter

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 26, 2009, at 4:26 AM, Ned Carey wrote:
what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0.google.com/hosted/images/c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b6c72_large

Tim O'Connor






As Frank Fertitta observed, it's some sort of unusually large
cleanout cover with some sort of small crane arrangement to support
it when unbolted from the tank end. What Carnegie-Illinois Steel
might have been carrying in the cars that required a cleanout hole
that large I can't imagine, but it's big enough to admit a workman.
Frank's wrong in his speculation that the car was a high pressure
tank car of some sort, however, as it was listed in the ORERs as AAR
class TM, not TP. CISX 2774 was one of ten cars numbered 2772-2781
which were of 12,650 gal. capacity, unusually large for that day
(Note that the tank is visibly bigger than that on the 10,000 gal.
GATX car to the left). These ten cars were used to carry a non-
regulatory commodity, as is evident both from the stenciling on the
tank and the absence of safety valves - they had only frangible disk
vents. I'd be interested to learn from someone familiar with the
process of producing steel (Tony?) what that commodity might have
been. At any rate, They were AC&F Type 21s built in early the 1920s,
and the tank cleanouts were probably added later. The dome platforms
were homemade and were certainly added later.

Ned then observes:

It confirms what most on this list already know
a.. There was quite a variety of tank cars in size shape a detail.
b.. Most tank cars were plain black
c.. Three compartment cars are smaller, common models like athearn
are way to large. Note the three compartment car in the upper right
of the photo. It is noticeably smaller that nearby cars. I don't
recall seeing a multi compartment car next to other tank cars and
the size difference is obvious by comparison. (perhaps also a
converted car as the end domes are smaller than the middle dome.)









All true. The three compartment car appears to have been a 6,000 gal
single compartment car converted to three compartments. Such
conversions were fairly common (more often, though, on 8,000 gal.
cars), especially on GATX cars. 6 K gal. three compartment cars are
among the more obvious car types that need to be modeled in HO scale
(Micro-Trains has recent produced one in N scale). And Ned is, of
course, right that the old Athearn/AHM models are so grotesquely
oversize that they can't even be used as reasonable stand-ins for any
prototype cars.

What is the age of the photo?




Ca. 1942. Thee are a couple of GATX cars in the photo with features
(rod tank tie-downs instead of straps, full-circle dome handrails,
that weren't adopted earlier than late 1941), and all of the CISX
tank cars were gone from the ORERs by mid-1943.

a.. I see no radial course cars
b.. I see many cars that appear welded with no obvious rivet lines





There's one radial-course car way off in the distance, but certainly
they're largely absent from this photo. On the other hand, none of
the cars that are close enough for details to be made out appear to
be welded (and I've done some fiddling in Photoshop to bring up the
details as much as possible).
Interesting details
a.. The platforms on the full platform cars seem heavy. Maybe the
platforms onsome of the plastic models aren't so crude after all.
b.. My perception (Which perhaps comes from the model world) is
that full platform cars were much more common on insulated cars.
Yet I see a high percentage on non insulated cars in this photo.











Well, as noted earlier, the platforms on the cars close to the camera
were homemade, and very crude, additions. Dome platforms supplied by
the tank car builders were much more delicate.

c.. Seeing a person in close proximity to the manway, I am
surprised how small the manways were. It must have been a squeeze
to get into a car.




Yup. Fat guys would have had difficulty getting in and - worse-
getting out.

d.. On the first track to the left, take note of the second car
that has a dome showing. It has a circular grab all the way around
the dome. I haven't noticed this before and yet it is on at least a
few cars in the photo.






Standard GATC practice starting ca. 1941 but not generally adopted by
AC&F, the only other significant tank car mfr. by that date. Most of
the non-CISX cars I can identify in the photo are GATC built and
probably GATC owned. It appears that CISX had some sort of leasing/
maintenance arrangement with GATC, because in the 1930s they leased
cars from Pennsylvania-Conley, a wholly owned GATC subsidiary, and
that would account for the preponderance of GATC cars in the photo.

e.. The car to the upper right of the diesel cab has lateral
running boards around the dome. I have seen this before and
probably needs to be modeled more frequently. I can't think of a
single model available that has this. Would this have been an
option tank car builders offered for standard designs or would this
have been a trademark of a particular builder or tank car owner?










Tank car builder's may have provided those as an option, though I
can't recall seeing a builder's photo that shows them. However,
owners often added them on cars in assigned service where elevated
loading and/or unloading facilities weren't available. At any rate,
adding them on a model is very simple, if you're modeling a prototype
that had them.
f.. Perhaps most interesting of all is again the second car (with a
dome showing, 3rd car if you include the partial car in front) in
the left most row ahs an odd arrangement of rivet lines. Could this
be a 5 course car?





Yes, an arrangement unique, AFAIK, to GATC cars built in the early
war years, perhaps because larger pieces of steel weren't available.
There was a single bottom sheet, two side sheets, and two top sheets
with a rivet seam down the center as on three horizontal course cars.

Some other observations, for what they're worth.

The car whose tank end shows at the bottom of the photo was either a
Standard Tank Car Co. or Pennsylvania Tank Car Co. product, as
evidenced by the tank band location (PTC tanks were made by STC; PTC,
whose plant was next door to STC's, made only their own underframes
and smaller components like ladders and dome walkways). The next car
in the string at the left of the photo was GATX 18285, a 10K gal. car
built in 1926-'27.

All in all, as Ned says, a very interesting photo, though it would be
a mistake to over-generalize from it about tank cars as a whole.

Richard Hendrickson



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sunbeam13n14
 

Try this Richard -
 
Shell-and-tube heat exchangers, and some large, industrial liquid heaters have their tube bundles in a single pass (steam in the top connection through internal copper U-tubes with condensate out the bottom connection) configuration built so that the whole assembly can be removed for repair. They are usually installed at the bottom of the tank and removed horizontally. While the bundle is being repaired, if the tank is required to be in continuous service, it is not unusual to see a blind flange covering the mating flange surface.
 
Is it possible that a tank car not originally built with serpentine steam coils could be modified with connections for an internal, removable tube bundle for heating liquids requiring viscosity encouragement (paraffin perhaps) and then later removed?
 
Frank

--- On Fri, 2/27/09, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:


From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: tank car question
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 4:47 AM






On Feb 26, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@ ...>
wrote:

On Feb 26, 2009, at 4:26 AM, Ned Carey wrote:
what is the odd device on the end of this tank car?
http://tbn0. google.com/ hosted/images/ c?q=eb8dfb80ba8b 6c72_large

Tim O'Connor
As Frank Fertitta observed, it's some sort of unusually large
cleanout cover with some sort of small crane arrangement to support
it when unbolted from the tank end. What Carnegie-Illinois Steel
might have been carrying in the cars that required a cleanout hole
that large I can't imagine, but it's big enough to admit a workman.
Everyone seems to be of the opinion that this plate is a cleanout; I
have a different take on the situation. I may be the only person on
this list who has ever had to enter a tankcar to clean it out; luckily
it had been steamed out years before, but left wet, I I was chipping
rust and washing it out before we put the car in service storing waste
oil fuel for the museum's oil burning steamer. The car was an 8,000
gal. UTLX car from the thirties.

I can see no reason to have a cleanout at the bottom of the tank head;
no workman is going to crawl in through the oil residue to enter the
car. The manway on the dome is much cleaner, and the cars have a
ladder leading down from the manway to the bottom. Yes, the manway was
small, but I was a lot skinnier then :-) Typical cleaning procedure,
from what I've been told, was to lower a rotating high pressure steam
/ water nozzle through the manway, and let the residue drain out the
bottom outlet. A man only entered for the final inspection, and to
buck rivets or caulk seams during tank repairs.

I have, however, seen tankcars with the steam connections for the
heater coils led out through the head rather than through the bottom
of the tank. What this looks like to me is that the heater was a
bundle of tubes with return bends, something like a locomotive
superheater, arranged so the whole unit could be extracted through
that hatch in the head and repaired outside the tank, rather than
having to do all the work in place. It's just a guess on my part, but
the other end may well have a similar hatch with the steam
connections.
Dennis, you're assuming this car was in some sort of oil service, but
(as I pointed out in my post) it was stenciled for loading with non-
regulatory commodities only and had frangible disk vents instead of
spring-loaded safety valves, so whatever oil it might have carried
certainly wasn't petroleum based, if it was oil at all, and probably
would not have required a tank heater. I agree that big plate in the
end of CISX 2774 is overkill for a cleanout, and I'm open to an
alternative explanation of its purpose, but no one has, as yet, come
up with anything more plausible. I'm still hoping that someone on
the list who knows more about steel making than I do can come up with
an explanation (n.b. not just speculation) of what cargo those ten
cars were used to carry; we might then be better able to account for
the big round plate on the end.

Richard Hendrickson

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