"A" Railroads Base Fleet


Michael Aufderheide
 

All,
 
For my base fleet of 200 with roads starting with the letter A, I have ACL and ATSF.  For reference you would have to have a 1000 car fleet before adding Ann Arbor (737 cars).  Even with this large number AW&P and ACY don’t register.
 
ACL, 13,770 cars:
 
For my 200 car base fleet need 4 ACL cars.
 
1. 40ft steel, 14 ft double door, 10’-3” or 4” IH, Class O-18, 21 & 23, car # series 51000, 52128, 3,005 cars, unknown model.
 
2. 40ft steel, 6 ft door, 10’-3” to 10’-6 IH, Class O-16D & E and one unknown class, car series 21630, 27000, 27480, 2,924 cars, unknown model.
 
3. 40ft steel rebuild, 14 ft double door, 10’- 4” IH, Class O-16A to C, car # series 55,000, 2,466 cars, unknown model.
 
4. 36ft DS vented, 6 ft door, 8’-0” IH, Class O-17, car # series 17000, 1,902 cars, Sunshine 35.1 to 6.
 
 
ATSF 34,328 cars:
 
For my 200 car base fleet need 9 ATSF cars:
 
1 & 2  40 ft steel 37 AAR modified, 6 ft door, 10’-4” to 10’-6” IH, Class Bx-37 (and others ?), car # series 139500, 141302, 144400, 145500, 7,023 cars, Intermountain. [there are so many of these they count for two models]
 
3. 40 ft SS, 6 ft door, 10’-6” IH, Class Bx-11&12 rebuilt roof, car # series 210000, 211051, 4,174 cars, Westerfield 4700.
 
4. 40 ft steel 44 AAR, 6 ft door, 10’-6” IH, Class Bx-44 (and others?), car # series 30,000,138700,274000, 3,704 cars, Speedwitch KC108.
 
5. 40 ft steel rebuilt, 6 ft door, 10’-6” IH, Class Bx-41, 42, 45, 46, 49 (others ?), car # series 37300, 37320, 37370, 270000, 270500, 271600, 272000, 2,869 cars, Intermountain kitbash.
 
6. 40 ft USRA steel rebuilt, 6 ft door, 10’-4” IH, Class Bx-32, 33, 36, car # series 145000,148200, 2,202 cars, Sunshine 64.23 to 36.
 
7.  40 ft SS, 6ft door, 9’-6” IH, Classes Bx-11,12,13 original, car #124000, 135000 series,  2,174 cars, Westerfield 4600.
 
8. 40 ft DS, 6 ft door, 8’-6” IH, Class Bx-3 & Bx-6, car # series 116000, 1,993 cars, Westerfield 3600.
 
9. 40 ft steel 37 AAR, 6 ft door, 10’-0” IH, Class Bx-27, car # series 136500, 1,973 cars, Red Caboose w/modifications.
 
 
10.  50 ft steel, 14'-6" door, 10'-10 to 12'-4", Class Fe-6 to 20, too many car # series to list here, +/- 1300 cars, Sunshine 73.1 to 73.25.  [this car type is not as clear as the others.  Other suggestions?]
 
More later…
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide


Charlie Vlk
 

These statisical studies of car distribution assume appearance based on proportion of ownership of cars, which in a perfect free interchange environment might be viable and probably are somewhat useful as a starting point.
However, there were favored connections and bias built into the system because of origin of and destinations of certain commodities and other human and economic factors..
Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards for the road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are interested in, in your era, would be more instructive than a mathematical model.... if you can find such documents.
Charlie Vlk


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
These statisical studies of car distribution assume appearance based on proportion of ownership of cars, which in a perfect free interchange environment might be viable and probably are somewhat useful as a starting point.
Here we go again. Charlie, there WAS a free interchange environment, for CERTAIN car types. To say this fact is "somewhat useful" is like saying "sometimes summer days can be somewhat warm."

However, there were favored connections and bias built into the system because of origin of and destinations of certain commodities and other human and economic factors.
Read previous comment. OF COURSE assigned cars are NOT free runners and cannot fit the Nelson-Gilbert model, and they said so, at the beginning and frequently thereafter. Please don't ignore what the originators of this idea THEMSELVES explained. Otherwise you open yourself to the accusation of not grasping what you are commenting on. No one has or will apply the N-G model to tank cars, etc. etc.
As for favored or hostile connections, yes, it does introduce a small bias. This has been acknowledged repeatedly on this list and hardly bears repetition.

Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards for the road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are interested in, in your era, would be more instructive than a mathematical model.... if you can find such documents.
Yes and no. Yes, a wheel report or film of an entire train does give you a superb snippet of data, and if you wish to model that train or trains, fine. Ditto for yard shots. But the Gilbert-Nelson hypothesis does not deal with those points, but instead attempts to answer, what is the OVERALL pattern over a long time period. To say "wheel reports are more instructive" is like saying apples are better than oranges. Each to his own taste, of course; but please don't muddy the waters.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Charlie Vlk notes:

Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards for the road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are interested in, in your era, would be more instructive than a mathematical model.... if you can find such documents.
Not to mention countless messages pertaining to this issue, numerous panel discussions [ including one held last Jan during Prototype Rails at Cocoa Beach ], endless opinions...including...well...that of yours truly, a huge number of photo references and various conflicting data regarding the subject.

Mike Brock


Charlie Vlk
 

Not to pooh-pooh the investigation. This line of research is still worthwhile. I guess my point is not to take it as a formula for determining what you have to have on your railroad.
It would be preferred, however, to the all-too-common Model Railroad attitude "I don't need any XYZ cars because I model the ABC"!!! I believe that Manufacturers still see quite a bit of regional bias in sales... controlled by the Hobby Shops but also driven by the consumers... even in more sophiscated lines beyond the trainset set.
I think "casting" the actors on your pike is important.... just like I don't believe in forcing universal scripts on the actors. The Car Card Pocket / Waybill system, when implemented in its full form, takes the Interchange Rules somewhat beyond what happened in the real world. Some roads and some cars were better equipped to play certain parts.
You could often tell what train you were looking at by the complexion of its consist. That did not happen randomly.
But ANY research into Freight Cars is a Good Thing!
Charlie Vlk




Charlie Vlk notes:

> Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards for the
> road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are interested in,
> in your era, would be more instructive than a mathematical model.... if
> you can find such documents.

Not to mention countless messages pertaining to this issue, numerous panel
discussions [ including one held last Jan during Prototype Rails at Cocoa
Beach ], endless opinions...including...well...that of yours truly, a huge
number of photo references and various conflicting data regarding the
subject.

Mike Brock

.


Steve SANDIFER
 

I have an interesting (to me) study posted at
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Climax/Climax.htm
concerning the little town of Climax, KS, population 100, in 1945. The track plan is simple: main, house track, elevator track. Over a 10 month period I have records of 246 cars being spotted in that town - reporting marks, car numbers, contents, destination, etc.
This is an ATSF branch.

47% were ATSF cars. The balance came from 40 different lines. The C&O, MILW, B&O, and PRR were the most common in order, providing 8-10 cars each. Western lines were sparsely represented (only 1 UP box).
Auto box and regular boxcars made up 147 of the cars, or 62%. Gondolas were next with 34 cars, 30 of which were ATSF. Coal was delivered in 4 of the off line gondolas. Stock cars made up 30 of the deliveries, 29 of which were ATSF. 6 ATSF reefers and 18 cars in MOW service make up the balance.

The full list is at http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Climax/Cars.htm

There is a sense in which I could gather these 246 cars and call them my "Base Fleet," but I realize that this list would not be repeated if I had a similar catalogue for 1946 or 1947. The fleet is heavily influenced by one industry, an alfalfa mill that was not even located in this town. Down the road at Moline, where a limestone quarry could put out 100 cars a day, the mix would be very different. My large city of Emporia, KS, would see just about anything that traveled the ATSF main line (that's why I chose it).

So I think this discussion is very interesting, intriguing, but not real practical.

----------------------------------------------------------------
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417
Personal: http://www.geocities.com/stevesandifer2000/index
Church: http://www.swcentral.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Vlk
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "A" Railroads Base Fleet





Not to pooh-pooh the investigation. This line of research is still worthwhile. I guess my point is not to take it as a formula for determining what you have to have on your railroad.
It would be preferred, however, to the all-too-common Model Railroad attitude "I don't need any XYZ cars because I model the ABC"!!! I believe that Manufacturers still see quite a bit of regional bias in sales... controlled by the Hobby Shops but also driven by the consumers... even in more sophiscated lines beyond the trainset set.
I think "casting" the actors on your pike is important.... just like I don't believe in forcing universal scripts on the actors. The Car Card Pocket / Waybill system, when implemented in its full form, takes the Interchange Rules somewhat beyond what happened in the real world. Some roads and some cars were better equipped to play certain parts.
You could often tell what train you were looking at by the complexion of its consist. That did not happen randomly.
But ANY research into Freight Cars is a Good Thing!
Charlie Vlk

Charlie Vlk notes:

> Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards for the
> road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are interested in,
> in your era, would be more instructive than a mathematical model.... if
> you can find such documents.

Not to mention countless messages pertaining to this issue, numerous panel
discussions [ including one held last Jan during Prototype Rails at Cocoa
Beach ], endless opinions...including...well...that of yours truly, a huge
number of photo references and various conflicting data regarding the
subject.

Mike Brock

.


Michael Aufderheide
 

Charlie,
 
I can see the point of your post and feel the pain of Mike's flogged horse, but hopefully the information is useful.  It is, afterall....what it is; simply the most numerous cars.  If you believe there is any merit to the Nelson-Gilbert idea then this is the starting point.  It would not have occured to me to have the (7) X29s or (2) New Haven cars that the numbers call for.  As I mentioned in the first post, this is just the starting point.  My total number of boxcars will be 250-275 with 200 of those being "base fleet" cars.
 
Regards,
 
Mike Aufderheide
Modeling the Monon

--- On Wed, 4/29/09, Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

From: Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "A" Railroads Base Fleet
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, April 29, 2009, 10:46 AM








Not to pooh-pooh the investigation. This line of research is still worthwhile. I guess my point is not to take it as a formula for determining what you have to have on your railroad.
It would be preferred, however, to the all-too-common Model Railroad attitude "I don't need any XYZ cars because I model the ABC"!!! I believe that Manufacturers still see quite a bit of regional bias in sales... controlled by the Hobby Shops but also driven by the consumers... even in more sophiscated lines beyond the trainset set.
I think "casting" the actors on your pike is important... . just like I don't believe in forcing universal scripts on the actors. The Car Card Pocket / Waybill system, when implemented in its full form, takes the Interchange Rules somewhat beyond what happened in the real world. Some roads and some cars were better equipped to play certain parts.
You could often tell what train you were looking at by the complexion of its consist. That did not happen randomly.
But ANY research into Freight Cars is a Good Thing!
Charlie Vlk

Charlie Vlk notes:

Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards for the
road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are interested in,
in your era, would be more instructive than a mathematical model.... if
you can find such documents.
Not to mention countless messages pertaining to this issue, numerous panel
discussions [ including one held last Jan during Prototype Rails at Cocoa
Beach ], endless opinions...includin g...well. ..that of yours truly, a huge
number of photo references and various conflicting data regarding the
subject.

Mike Brock

.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Dave Nelson
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:

Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards
for the road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are
interested in, in your era, would be more instructive than a
mathematical model.... if you can find such documents. Charlie Vlk
And so we did.

Charlie, when I developed the hypothesis I did not have any wheel reports
but with the understanding that a good set of such documents would either
confirm or refute the whole idea, I went out and purchased as many as I
could. About that time I met Tim Muir and he too was looking for wheel
reports, pretty much for the same reason, and from that point on we
collaborated on our analysis. Tim took a much more vocal role in promoting
the idea than I did and on his own he explored and discussed the possibility
that the hypothesis could also be applied to ordinary flat cars.

Eventually we collected quite a few wheel reports. I have about 30 for the
Southern, and individual books from the NYC, UP, SN, and something else I
don't recall right now, and a Yard Jumbo from the W&LE; Tim had his own set,
which I know included another some from the Southern as well as the UP...
the others don't come to mind right now.

The wheel reports did, IMO, confirm the basic hypothesis and allowed us to
further specify when it applied: Post WWII, on mainline trunk routes,
excluding home road boxcars, the percentage of boxcars marked for foreign
roads will closely match the percentages of boxcars contributed to the US
fleet by each railroad. By boxcar, I mean one that can be put into general
purpose use. The wheel reports do show a bit of a bias towards nearby
connections, but here I believe the sample size of locations that we have is
too small to make a good hypothesis on that point. Further, as almost all
railroads contributed less than 5% of the national fleet (most less than
1.5%), even a large bias towards local connections would compute to a very
small number per 100 foreign road boxcars.

Last, the hypothesis makes no predicition on what one might observe in
individual trains.

As to the available alternatives: IMO yard photos can be useful but the
number of home road cars is usually wildly over-represented as compared to
what the railroads reported to the ICC. Photos of whole trains are one data
point, the same as a wheel report, but as single trains are usually blocks
from connections (or destinations), their makeup is very likely *not*
representative of what you'd record after observing a set of freight trains
on the same route in the same period of time. They also have the same
problem as yard shots -- it's just one point in time. Based on the wheel
reports, it's clear that things vary all of the time. A sample from one
moment, as what a photo shows, is simply not going to be fully
representative.

So in the end, it is my opinion that wheel reports do provide the sample
that's useful, and they do confirm the mathematical model -- not precisely
-- but very, very well.

Dave Nelson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
About that time I met Tim Muir . . .
Surely you mean Tim Gilbert? Or is this someone else?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Dave Nelson
 

Anthony Thompson wrote:
Dave Nelson wrote:
About that time I met Tim Muir . . .
Surely you mean Tim Gilbert? Or is this someone else?

Whoops! Got my Tim buddies mixed up. Tim Gilbert and I worked on the
distribution hypothesis. Tim Muir (who is also a STMFC member) does high
detail 3d cad models of steam era freight cars, Pacific Electric
streetcars, and PE and SN electric locomotives for use in Train Simulators.
I've helped him w/ some car drawings & photos.

Dave Nelson


Armand Premo
 

Dave,Not wishing to continue beating a dead horse,but did your research reveal any regional biases or seasonal variances ?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Nelson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] "A" Railroads Base Fleet





Charlie Vlk wrote:

> Wheel reports, photos of entire trains, or overall photos of yards
> for the road you are modeling or similar ones in the region you are
> interested in, in your era, would be more instructive than a
> mathematical model.... if you can find such documents. Charlie Vlk

And so we did.

Charlie, when I developed the hypothesis I did not have any wheel reports
but with the understanding that a good set of such documents would either
confirm or refute the whole idea, I went out and purchased as many as I
could. About that time I met Tim Muir and he too was looking for wheel
reports, pretty much for the same reason, and from that point on we
collaborated on our analysis. Tim took a much more vocal role in promoting
the idea than I did and on his own he explored and discussed the possibility
that the hypothesis could also be applied to ordinary flat cars.

Eventually we collected quite a few wheel reports. I have about 30 for the
Southern, and individual books from the NYC, UP, SN, and something else I
don't recall right now, and a Yard Jumbo from the W&LE; Tim had his own set,
which I know included another some from the Southern as well as the UP...
the others don't come to mind right now.

The wheel reports did, IMO, confirm the basic hypothesis and allowed us to
further specify when it applied: Post WWII, on mainline trunk routes,
excluding home road boxcars, the percentage of boxcars marked for foreign
roads will closely match the percentages of boxcars contributed to the US
fleet by each railroad. By boxcar, I mean one that can be put into general
purpose use. The wheel reports do show a bit of a bias towards nearby
connections, but here I believe the sample size of locations that we have is
too small to make a good hypothesis on that point. Further, as almost all
railroads contributed less than 5% of the national fleet (most less than
1.5%), even a large bias towards local connections would compute to a very
small number per 100 foreign road boxcars.

Last, the hypothesis makes no predicition on what one might observe in
individual trains.

As to the available alternatives: IMO yard photos can be useful but the
number of home road cars is usually wildly over-represented as compared to
what the railroads reported to the ICC. Photos of whole trains are one data
point, the same as a wheel report, but as single trains are usually blocks
from connections (or destinations), their makeup is very likely *not*
representative of what you'd record after observing a set of freight trains
on the same route in the same period of time. They also have the same
problem as yard shots -- it's just one point in time. Based on the wheel
reports, it's clear that things vary all of the time. A sample from one
moment, as what a photo shows, is simply not going to be fully
representative.

So in the end, it is my opinion that wheel reports do provide the sample
that's useful, and they do confirm the mathematical model -- not precisely
-- but very, very well.

Dave Nelson






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