RC PFE R-30-12-9


Armand Premo
 

How accurate is the Red Caboose PFE R-30-12-9 reefer?Armand Premo


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:
How accurate is the Red Caboose PFE R-30-12-9 reefer?
I'd say excellent.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

The -car- itself is excellent as Tony says, but watch out
for the paint schemes. Also if you get hold of the oldest
original kits, the bodies were incorrect, and were later
retooled.

Tim O'Connor

At 5/12/2009 06:39 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
Armand Premo wrote:
How accurate is the Red Caboose PFE R-30-12-9 reefer?
I'd say excellent.

Tony Thompson


Armand Premo
 

Thank you Tony .This begs other questions,RC-4101-1has ladders on sides and ends and a power hand brake.RC 4101-2 has side ladders and end grabs with a stem winder hand brake.Both cars have K brakes,T section trucks and both had reweigh dates of 1939.With those differences are they both correct?How long were they carried on the roster in those configurations.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RC PFE R-30-12-9





Armand Premo wrote:
> How accurate is the Red Caboose PFE R-30-12-9 reefer?

I'd say excellent.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:
Thank you Tony .This begs other questions,RC-4101-1has ladders on sides and ends and a power hand brake.RC 4101-2 has side ladders and end grabs with a stem winder hand brake.Both cars have K brakes,T section trucks and both had reweigh dates of 1939.With those differences are they both correct?How long were they carried on the roster in those configurations.
I'm sorry, I don't have those kits myself and don't know exactly which bodies they are. But AFAIK all of the -9 rebuilds received steel ladders, sides and ends, along with power handbrakes, when rebuilt during 1938-1940. Most kept their T-section trucks until after WW II, when many got AAR trucks. The earlier cars in the class kept their original KC brakes, but soon after WW II they began to get AB brakes. For a 1939 reweigh date, I'd say a -9 should NOT have grab iron rows or vertical-staff handbrakes. But if it's an R-30-12 car, it certainly could have.
What class lettering is on the car bodies?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

Armand

The first model Red Caboose did was neither an R-30-12 or
an R-30-9 (i.e. R-30-12-9) -- it was the height of an R-30-12
but had some R-30-9 features. RC quickly redid the car with the
correct height and door etc, and this was the R-30-9 (-12-9)
and in addition later did the lower height R-30-12 body. As Tony
notes the prototype cars received various modifications and
changes in their service lives and the classes co-existed for
a long time as well. Many cars were rebuilt without the hatch
platforms and received modern ice hatches too -- so it's best
to have a good book on this subject! (i.e. the PFE book)

A quick Google Desktop search shows me most of the emails on
this subject happened before STMFC, back in the "freightcars"
mailing list era, at the dawn of time...

Tim O'Connor

At 5/12/2009 08:57 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
Armand Premo wrote:
Thank you Tony .This begs other questions,RC-4101-1has ladders
on sides and ends and a power hand brake.RC 4101-2 has side ladders
and end grabs with a stem winder hand brake.Both cars have K
brakes,T section trucks and both had reweigh dates of 1939.With
those differences are they both correct?How long were they carried
on the roster in those configurations.
I'm sorry, I don't have those kits myself and don't know exactly
which bodies they are. But AFAIK all of the -9 rebuilds received steel
ladders, sides and ends, along with power handbrakes, when rebuilt
during 1938-1940. Most kept their T-section trucks until after WW II,
when many got AAR trucks. The earlier cars in the class kept their
original KC brakes, but soon after WW II they began to get AB brakes.
For a 1939 reweigh date, I'd say a -9 should NOT have grab iron rows
or vertical-staff handbrakes. But if it's an R-30-12 car, it certainly
could have.
What class lettering is on the car bodies?

Tony Thompson


Armand Premo
 

Thanks again Tony.Both cars are R-30-12-9.Both were "completely reconditioned",repacked and light weighted on 7-39.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RC PFE R-30-12-9





Armand Premo wrote:
> Thank you Tony .This begs other questions,RC-4101-1has ladders
> on sides and ends and a power hand brake.RC 4101-2 has side ladders
> and end grabs with a stem winder hand brake.Both cars have K
> brakes,T section trucks and both had reweigh dates of 1939.With
> those differences are they both correct?How long were they carried
> on the roster in those configurations.

I'm sorry, I don't have those kits myself and don't know exactly
which bodies they are. But AFAIK all of the -9 rebuilds received steel
ladders, sides and ends, along with power handbrakes, when rebuilt
during 1938-1940. Most kept their T-section trucks until after WW II,
when many got AAR trucks. The earlier cars in the class kept their
original KC brakes, but soon after WW II they began to get AB brakes.
For a 1939 reweigh date, I'd say a -9 should NOT have grab iron rows
or vertical-staff handbrakes. But if it's an R-30-12 car, it certainly
could have.
What class lettering is on the car bodies?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Armand Premo
 

Thanks Tim.Quess I am out of my neighborhood again.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RC PFE R-30-12-9





Armand

The first model Red Caboose did was neither an R-30-12 or
an R-30-9 (i.e. R-30-12-9) -- it was the height of an R-30-12
but had some R-30-9 features. RC quickly redid the car with the
correct height and door etc, and this was the R-30-9 (-12-9)
and in addition later did the lower height R-30-12 body. As Tony
notes the prototype cars received various modifications and
changes in their service lives and the classes co-existed for
a long time as well. Many cars were rebuilt without the hatch
platforms and received modern ice hatches too -- so it's best
to have a good book on this subject! (i.e. the PFE book)

A quick Google Desktop search shows me most of the emails on
this subject happened before STMFC, back in the "freightcars"
mailing list era, at the dawn of time...

Tim O'Connor

At 5/12/2009 08:57 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
>Armand Premo wrote:
>> Thank you Tony .This begs other questions,RC-4101-1has ladders
>> on sides and ends and a power hand brake.RC 4101-2 has side ladders
>> and end grabs with a stem winder hand brake.Both cars have K
>> brakes,T section trucks and both had reweigh dates of 1939.With
>> those differences are they both correct?How long were they carried
>> on the roster in those configurations.
>
> I'm sorry, I don't have those kits myself and don't know exactly
>which bodies they are. But AFAIK all of the -9 rebuilds received steel
>ladders, sides and ends, along with power handbrakes, when rebuilt
>during 1938-1940. Most kept their T-section trucks until after WW II,
>when many got AAR trucks. The earlier cars in the class kept their
>original KC brakes, but soon after WW II they began to get AB brakes.
>For a 1939 reweigh date, I'd say a -9 should NOT have grab iron rows
>or vertical-staff handbrakes. But if it's an R-30-12 car, it certainly
>could have.
> What class lettering is on the car bodies?
>
>Tony Thompson






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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:
Thanks again Tony.Both cars are R-30-12-9.Both were "completely reconditioned",repacked and light weighted on 7-39.
One's right, one's wrong. Now you know which <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Bruce Smith
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Armand Premo wrote:
Thanks again Tony.Both cars are R-30-12-9.Both were "completely
reconditioned",repacked and light weighted on 7-39.
One's right, one's wrong. Now you know which <g>.

Tony Thompson
Actually, aren't both wrong? I have the R-30-12-9 and R-30-12 at home and I did a little looking in the archives. I believe the 4101 kits may be the original run of low height carbodies. If so, the carbody height actually represents an R-30-12, not the taller rebuilt R-30-12-9 (aka R-30-9). As such, both would be wrongly painted, but you could strip the one with ladder grabs and paint it for an appropriate R-30-12 scheme. As for the car with ladders, I looked in the PFE book and could not find any R-30-12 (or -13) reefers with ladders on the original body, so that one is a bust, if these are the lower carbodies...

Armand - are the bodies the same height? Can you measure them and let us know? I can compare to the RCs I have at home

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
Actually, aren't both wrong? I have the R-30-12-9 and R-30-12 at home and I did a little looking in the archives. I believe the 4101 kits may be the original run of low height carbodies. If so, the carbody height actually represents an R-30-12, not the taller rebuilt R-30-12-9 (aka R-30-9). As such, both would be wrongly painted, but you could strip the one with ladder grabs and paint it for an appropriate R-30-12 scheme. As for the car with ladders, I looked in the PFE book and could not find any R-30-12 (or -13) reefers with ladders on the original body, so that one is a bust, if these are the lower carbodies...

Armand - are the bodies the same height? Can you measure them and let us know? I can compare to the RCs I have at home
You are right, Bruce, and since I don't have either kit I couldn't check. For the one with grabs, I think you would only have to strip the class number (and the "reconditioned" legend) and the car number.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Armand Premo
 

Gentlemen,RC -4101-1 and 4101-2 are identical.Stated IH is 7' 3" Actual measurement is 8' 3".car numbers are 92809 and 92814 CU FT 1288.Do you need additional measurements ?.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9





Bruce Smith wrote:
> Actually, aren't both wrong? I have the R-30-12-9 and R-30-12 at
> home and I did a little looking in the archives. I believe the 4101
> kits may be the original run of low height carbodies. If so, the
> carbody height actually represents an R-30-12, not the taller
> rebuilt R-30-12-9 (aka R-30-9). As such, both would be wrongly
> painted, but you could strip the one with ladder grabs and paint it
> for an appropriate R-30-12 scheme. As for the car with ladders, I
> looked in the PFE book and could not find any R-30-12 (or -13)
> reefers with ladders on the original body, so that one is a bust, if
> these are the lower carbodies...
>
> Armand - are the bodies the same height? Can you measure them and
> let us know? I can compare to the RCs I have at home

You are right, Bruce, and since I don't have either kit I
couldn't check. For the one with grabs, I think you would only have to
strip the class number (and the "reconditioned" legend) and the car
number.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

First, Armand...Welcome to the world of PFE. Before you become too involved be aware that I know of at least two modelers who, attempting to learn the PFE reefer car mods, their numbering changes, their paint schemes along with when they existed, are now in places like Sunnybrook Rest Home. One of them has to be kept in a separate guarded facility because he tried to bite an attendant when the attendant asked him if he had ever seen the Pacific Ocean.


Bruce Smith says about the Red Caboose R-30-12 and R-30-12-9:

Actually, aren't both wrong? I have the R-30-12-9 and R-30-12 at home and I did a little looking in the archives. I believe the 4101 kits may be the original run of low height carbodies. If so, the carbody height actually represents an R-30-12, not the taller rebuilt R-30-12-9 (aka R-30-9).
I think that is correct.

"As such, both would be wrongly painted, but you could strip the one with ladder grabs and paint it for an appropriate R-30-12 scheme."

I'm not sure why the R-30-12 would be wrongly painted. While the R-30-13's were apparently renumbered prior to scrapping [ PFE book, pg 100 ], there is no such statement with regard to the 12's. PFE book, pg 98 indicates 284 12 and 13's made it to 1950 under their original numbers. There is no telling what paint scheme these survived with...although one might assume few would be in the Overland scheme but I wouldn't want to bet my Key Big Boys on that. In fact, the Big Boy Collection video...which contains the infamous train of 36 SP box cars...also has a train with a wood PFE reefer with the single UP medallion in 1953. Is it the Overland? I'll check. The PFE book, pg 387 shows an Overland medallion in 1948. Now, that's only 6 yrs after the Overland [ without "System" ] was removed from the medallion. Red Caboose kit # 4001, R-30-12 has the Overland medallion without "System". So, I would think an R-30-12 with an Overland medallion could be found in 1950.

"As for the car with ladders, I looked in the PFE book and could not find any R-30-12 (or -13) reefers with ladders on the original body, so that one is a bust, if these are the lower carbodies..."

Hmmm. More study may be needed. Now, I notice that R-30-12 kit # 4001-2 has holes and bolt heads for individual grabs but does not include the grabs, having ladders instead. It would be easy to build the 12 with individual grabs...or ladders. OTOH, WP kit # 4201 [ R-30-12 ] has no such holes and bolt heads and the paint scheme of 1939. The prototype has ladders.

Armand - are the bodies the same height?
I'm betting the R-30-12-9 has a side 8 ft high as does the 12. The R-30-9 has an 8.5 ft height.

Mike Brock


Armand Premo
 

Mike et al ,Admittedly I am over my head wandering around in the dark.Like Pennsy box cars I have to have PFE reefers.Geeez, Just when I was beginning to trust manufacturers.Quess I'll just have to stick with resin kits, and even then with my guard up.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Brock
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9





First, Armand...Welcome to the world of PFE. Before you become too involved
be aware that I know of at least two modelers who, attempting to learn the
PFE reefer car mods, their numbering changes, their paint schemes along with
when they existed, are now in places like Sunnybrook Rest Home. One of them
has to be kept in a separate guarded facility because he tried to bite an
attendant when the attendant asked him if he had ever seen the Pacific
Ocean.

Bruce Smith says about the Red Caboose R-30-12 and R-30-12-9:

> Actually, aren't both wrong? I have the R-30-12-9 and R-30-12 at home and
> I did a little looking in the archives. I believe the 4101 kits may be
> the original run of low height carbodies. If so, the carbody height
> actually represents an R-30-12, not the taller rebuilt R-30-12-9 (aka
> R-30-9).

I think that is correct.

"As such, both would be wrongly painted, but you could strip the one with
ladder grabs and paint it for an appropriate R-30-12 scheme."

I'm not sure why the R-30-12 would be wrongly painted. While the R-30-13's
were apparently renumbered prior to scrapping [ PFE book, pg 100 ], there is
no such statement with regard to the 12's. PFE book, pg 98 indicates 284 12
and 13's made it to 1950 under their original numbers. There is no telling
what paint scheme these survived with...although one might assume few would
be in the Overland scheme but I wouldn't want to bet my Key Big Boys on
that. In fact, the Big Boy Collection video...which contains the infamous
train of 36 SP box cars...also has a train with a wood PFE reefer with the
single UP medallion in 1953. Is it the Overland? I'll check. The PFE book,
pg 387 shows an Overland medallion in 1948. Now, that's only 6 yrs after the
Overland [ without "System" ] was removed from the medallion. Red Caboose
kit # 4001, R-30-12 has the Overland medallion without "System". So, I would
think an R-30-12 with an Overland medallion could be found in 1950.

"As for the car with ladders, I looked in the PFE book and could not find
any R-30-12 (or -13) reefers with ladders on the original body, so that one
is a bust, if these are the lower carbodies..."

Hmmm. More study may be needed. Now, I notice that R-30-12 kit # 4001-2 has
holes and bolt heads for individual grabs but does not include the grabs,
having ladders instead. It would be easy to build the 12 with individual
grabs...or ladders. OTOH, WP kit # 4201 [ R-30-12 ] has no such holes and
bolt heads and the paint scheme of 1939. The prototype has ladders.

> Armand - are the bodies the same height?

I'm betting the R-30-12-9 has a side 8 ft high as does the 12. The R-30-9
has an 8.5 ft height.

Mike Brock






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Tim O'Connor
 

Armand, Red Caboose 4100, 4101-x, 4200, and 4201-x are all
incorrect PERIOD -- they are not correct for any version of
a PFE reefer. The worst error is the doors. If were just a
question of height, you could use this body to build the
R-30-12.

Tim O'Connor

Gentlemen, RC 4101-1 and 4101-2 are identical. Stated IH
is 7' 3" Actual measurement is 8' 3" car


Tim O'Connor
 

Armand wrote

Mike et al, Admittedly I am over my head wandering around
in the dark. Like Pennsy box cars I have to have PFE reefers.
Geeez, Just when I was beginning to trust manufacturers. Guess
I'll just have to stick with resin kits, and even then with
my guard up. Armand Premo
Armand

You certainly must be on guard at all times. Sunshine has done
models with incorrect underframes, incorrect doors, incorrect
decals, and even incorrect PFE carbody width (the R-50-5 model).
Not to mention packing errors -- I have received kits with parts
missing, or packed with the wrong parts!

Trust, but verify! :-)

Tim O'Connor


Tim O'Connor
 

Mike Brock wrote

Red Caboose kit # 4001, R-30-12 has the Overland medallion without
"System". So, I would think an R-30-12 with an Overland medallion
could be found in 1950.
Probably, yes.

WP kit # 4201 [ R-30-12 ] has no such holes and bolt heads and the
paint scheme of 1939. The prototype has ladders.
I'm pretty sure if you check this kit, it has the original carbody
and is neither an R-30-12 nor an R-30-9. Moreover, it is simply not
correct for the WP cars.

Tim O'Connor


Bruce Smith
 

On May 14, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Armand Premo wrote:

Mike et al ,Admittedly I am over my head wandering around in the dark.Like Pennsy box cars I have to have PFE reefers.Geeez, Just when I was beginning to trust manufacturers.Quess I'll just have to stick with resin kits, and even then with my guard up.Armand Premo
Never ever trust either RC or IM with respect to paint and lettering ;^) While I agree with Tim's assessment for Sunshine, with these companies, it isn't "Trust but Verify" but "Verify before you buy"!

The subsequent corrected RC releases of the R-30-12 and R-30-9 (R-30-12-9) are excellent kits. Both kits can be improved by shaving off the brake levers and adding free-standing ones. In addition, the R-30-9 (R-30-12-9) is good fodder for other cars such as the R-30-12-16 (R-30-16)and R-30-12-18 (R-30-18) conversions and for those feeling more adventurous, the R-30-13 and R-30-13-16 with the use of the Tichy underframe (note that the R-30-13-18 is available as a plastic kit already).

Regards, From the Sunnybrook Rest Home ;^)
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
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| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Armand Premo
 

WOW ! Thank you Tim. .Anyone need some nearly new second hand reefers? Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 8:39 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: RC PFE R-30-12-9






Armand, Red Caboose 4100, 4101-x, 4200, and 4201-x are all
incorrect PERIOD -- they are not correct for any version of
a PFE reefer. The worst error is the doors. If were just a
question of height, you could use this body to build the
R-30-12.

Tim O'Connor

>> Gentlemen, RC 4101-1 and 4101-2 are identical. Stated IH
>> is 7' 3" Actual measurement is 8' 3" car






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Tim O'Connor
 

Let me just add: Sunshine's R-30-9 and other wood bodied
PFE reefer kits are significantly better detailed than the
Red Caboose plastic kits. So much detail is missing from
the plastic cars that I almost regard them as "stand in"
models.

And of course, the Red Caboose cars only come with the single
I-beam Bettendorf 30 ton underframe. Sunshine offers you three
different underframes.

Tim O'Connor

The subsequent corrected RC releases of the R-30-12 and R-30-9
(R-30-12-9) are excellent kits. Both kits can be improved by shaving
off the brake levers and adding free-standing ones. In addition, the
R-30-9 (R-30-12-9) is good fodder for other cars such as the
R-30-12-16 (R-30-16)and R-30-12-18 (R-30-18) conversions and for
those feeling more adventurous, the R-30-13 and R-30-13-16 with the
use of the Tichy underframe (note that the R-30-13-18 is available as
a plastic kit already).

Regards, From the Sunnybrook Rest Home ;^)
Bruce