Date
1 - 20 of 34
The growing problem of erroneous captions
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asychis@...
Ed Hawkins wrote "The caption in the NYC color guide book is erroneous."
Erroneous information in the 128-page wonder books is certainly a problem. It is a shame that these authors, editors and publishers do not realize that these are not "pretty" books, but should be regarded as histories. As more and more faulty information gets into print, the quality of railroad history is degraded. It is degraded because each and every caption needs to be analyzed, post-publication, by an expert on a particular railroad to whom accuracy is important. Only someone devoted to a specific railroad or railroad era knows when the information is wrong. Since I follow the Missouri Pacific I can usually spot errors in books related to that railroad (and they are legion), but I'm at a loss when it comes to determining if information in a caption tagged to an NYC or C&O photo is accurate. If it were not for lists such as this, these inaccuracies would go unnoticed. However the corrections noted here are somewhat ephemeral; even if you search the archives. I would like to trust the information in these books. As it stands, however, the accuracy of these books is at times equivalent to the accuracy of Lionel paint schemes. Thank goodness we have the Hawkins, Thompsons, Cullotas and others who produce quality railroad history books that counterbalance the pathetic efforts of the picture books. Now if we could lay to rest the RMJ-inspired urban myth that the Missouri Pacific had blue cabooses! Jerry Michels **************Dell Inspiron 15 Laptop: Now in 6 vibrant colors! Shop Dell’s full line of laptops. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222399266x1201456865/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215073777%3B3703434 3%3Bf) |
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jerryglow2
Jerry can add himself to that list. He authored a 376 page book on the cabooses of the Missouri Pacific and IIRC only had 2 minor errors.
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As to his closing remark about the blue MP cabooses, one of my gripes is almost everyone calling MP's platfom cabooses (short bay window) transfer cabooses which they certainly WERE NOT. Jerry Glow --- In STMFC@..., asychis@... wrote:
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water.kresse@...
Folks,
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Sometimes unpaid authors of books or articles for not-for-profit societies just get saturated from multi-tasking too many projects, and you just push a draft out to meet deadlines. You work years on a book and then get a day and half to proof it (the week you have a big review at your real job). Or, a chapter sits for a year and half, and then they need it updated (and you must also find those original images) in five days . . . right when your wife wants the garden prepped or you're having an allergy attack. Yes, there are those (not the authors usually) who are very interested in style or form, that change layouts around and things which were once correct, don't always get back to where they should be. There are NOT that many technically qualified volunteers offering and willing to proof read someone else's preliminary work these days either . . . it seems. Al Kresse ----- Original Message -----
From: asychis @ aol .com To: STMFC @ yahoogroups .com Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 8:38:25 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [ STMFC ] The growing problem of erroneous captions Ed Hawkins wrote "The caption in the NYC color guide book is erroneous." Erroneous information in the 128-page wonder books is certainly a problem. It is a shame that these authors, editors and publishers do not realize that these are not "pretty" books, but should be regarded as histories. As more and more faulty information gets into print, the quality of railroad history is degraded. It is degraded because each and every caption needs to be analyzed, post-publication, by an expert on a particular railroad to whom accuracy is important. Only someone devoted to a specific railroad or railroad era knows when the information is wrong. Since I follow the Missouri Pacific I can usually spot errors in books related to that railroad (and they are legion), but I'm at a loss when it comes to determining if information in a caption tagged to an NYC or C&O photo is accurate. If it were not for lists such as this, these inaccuracies would go unnoticed. However the corrections noted here are somewhat ephemeral; even if you search the archives. I would like to trust the information in these books. As it stands, however, the accuracy of these books is at times equivalent to the accuracy of Lionel paint schemes. Thank goodness we have the Hawkins, Thompsons , Cullotas and others who produce quality railroad history books that counterbalance the pathetic efforts of the picture books. Now if we could lay to rest the RMJ-inspired urban myth that the Missouri Pacific had blue cabooses! Jerry Michels **************Dell Inspiron 15 Laptop: Now in 6 vibrant colors! Shop Dell’s full line of laptops. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222399266x1201456865/ aol ?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215073777%3B3703434 3%3Bf) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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seaboard_1966
So I guess that means that MP had a bunch of blue transfer cabeese running around. That is great to know.
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Denis Blake OHIO ----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryglow2" <jerryglow@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 8:49 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: The growing problem of erroneous captions Jerry can add himself to that list. He authored a 376 page book on the cabooses of the Missouri Pacific and IIRC only had 2 minor errors. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.35/2124 - Release Date: 05/20/09 06:22:00 |
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And they had combination plug & sliding doors. And were built in 1947!
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At 5/20/2009 10:17 AM Wednesday, you wrote:
So I guess that means that MP had a bunch of blue transfer cabeese running |
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jerryglow2
The MP Caboose book I mentioned was done thru the MPHS but the thread started about "picture books" I assume by the likes of Morning Sun etc. Hardly unpaid (although probably underpaid) authorship.
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Jerry Glow --- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:
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Schuyler Larrabee
Ed Hawkins wrote "The caption in the NYC color guide book is erroneous.." What Jerry says here is all too true. One reason is the later comment about "underpaid," which is really true. I know of one author whose compensation for the fifth book was one quarter of the compensation for the first book. Incredibly, IMHO, he's still working on another book, but only when he has absolutely nothing better to do. The result of this is that the authors who are doing these books now tend to be people who like to see their name in print, whether they know the topic or not. Now, having said that, I know I've mortally insulted some people reading this who will probably be ready to shiv me at Cocoa. Oops, perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned I'll be there. ;^) Seriously, I know personally that some of the authors really are pretty light in the native knowledge department. Many, I hope most, are very knowledgeable. It becomes a matter of a) knowing something about the topic yourself so you can turn on your BS meter, and b) knowing something about the author and how much credence you put in what they have to say. I will say this. Larry DeYoung's six books on the EL, while not absolutely error free, are very very good and reliable. And yes, I do know him. SGL E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441) Database version: 6.12420 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ |
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Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
Two weeks ago I was researching the M&StL at the Mercantile Library in St.
Louis, accessing the Barriger Collection. While going through John Barriger's photo album of the M&StL photos, I noticed more than a few photo captions contained errors. While these were not freight car photos, a person using this collection as a first source of historic value, could come away with incorrect information in their notes. I mentioned the errors to the attendant, but had no way of correcting the captions. While I knew the correct information for the M&StL, the experince made me suspicious of other "facts" recorded for which I was not familiar. I know, you should always double check and verify, but sometimes when doing historic research you only have one source. As to captions in books and magazines, as an author I have submitted captions which were not used or edited to where I hardly recognized them. If the person who does the finally proof reading does not know the subject matter, well ..... Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org |
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Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
Likewise, most US Army Signal Corps photos from WW II have captions printed on the back, written by the photographer who took the picture. Quite a few have the wrong location, wrong unit, or wrong tank or airplane model. Not an uncommon problem, it seems.
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KL ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Harding Two weeks ago I was researching the M&StL at the Mercantile Library in St. Louis, accessing the Barriger Collection. While going through John Barriger's photo album of the M&StL photos, I noticed more than a few photo captions contained errors. While these were not freight car photos, a person using this collection as a first source of historic value, could come away with incorrect information in their notes. . . |
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water.kresse@...
Folks,
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There are other public libraries who have gotten government grants to have photographer's negative sleeve notes transcribed into captions. One recent caption we noted on a Columbus, Ohio, late-1940 image noted a train running over the Little Miami River bridge south of Columbus. Actually, it was taken near the Little Miami Rr and C&O Rwy crossing-tower (LM Cabin) on the Scioto River bridge west of Columbus. I'm hoping to correct the caption when I purchasing a hi-res scan of this negative. Lots of times, the head curator has the caption files locked down so only he or she can modifiy them or enter new ones in a batch mode. We hope to minimize this at the C&O HS archive work sessions by pairing off younger and older members to enter these captions . . . and asking a lot of dumb questions. The "slave-labor run" system is not perfect. Al Kresse ----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 8:41:35 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [STMFC] Re: The growing problem of erroneous captions Two weeks ago I was researching the M&StL at the Mercantile Library in St. Louis, accessing the Barriger Collection. While going through John Barriger's photo album of the M&StL photos, I noticed more than a few photo captions contained errors. While these were not freight car photos, a person using this collection as a first source of historic value, could come away with incorrect information in their notes. I mentioned the errors to the attendant, but had no way of correcting the captions. While I knew the correct information for the M&StL, the experince made me suspicious of other "facts" recorded for which I was not familiar. I know, you should always double check and verify, but sometimes when doing historic research you only have one source. As to captions in books and magazines, as an author I have submitted captions which were not used or edited to where I hardly recognized them. If the person who does the finally proof reading does not know the subject matter, well ..... Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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water.kresse@...
More serious is the notion that libraries or archives can pitch the original photographers notes on old negative sleeves, or hand typed notes for groups of negatives . . . or Rr PR departments notes when calling out what negatives to print or the old frames with notes around browning prints . . . because they are now digitially re-entered by humans as they wish. Please save them, separately, until they crumb apart !
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Al Kresse ----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Harding" < dharding @ nethtc .net> To: STMFC @ yahoogroups .com Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 8:41:35 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [ STMFC ] Re: The growing problem of erroneous captions Two weeks ago I was researching the M& StL at the Mercantile Library in St. Louis, accessing the Barriger Collection. While going through John Barriger's photo album of the M& StL photos, I noticed more than a few photo captions contained errors. While these were not freight car photos, a person using this collection as a first source of historic value, could come away with incorrect information in their notes. I mentioned the errors to the attendant, but had no way of correcting the captions. While I knew the correct information for the M& StL , the experince made me suspicious of other "facts" recorded for which I was not familiar. I know, you should always double check and verify, but sometimes when doing historic research you only have one source. As to captions in books and magazines, as an author I have submitted captions which were not used or edited to where I hardly recognized them. If the person who does the finally proof reading does not know the subject matter, well ..... Doug Harding www . iowacentralrr .org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Al Kresse wrote:
There are other public libraries who have gotten government grants to have photographer's negative sleeve notes transcribed into captions . . .Many of the Steinheimer negatives at the DeGolyer had gotten stuck into the wrong sleeves, though the sleeves had original photographer's notes. An obvious case of good info not related to what was then in the sleeve! That's now being corrected by Dick's wife Shirley (with the help of a grant). Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Jerry Michels wrote:
Erroneous information in the 128-page wonder books is certainly a problem. It is a shame that these authors, editors and publishers do not realize that these are not "pretty" books, but should be regarded as histories.Very true, Jerry, and the exact reason why, after two books for Yanosey, I declined to do any more. He told me he did not WANT history in the captions, "just keep them short and sweet," he said. I'd written a number of captions (for photos HE selected and laid out), and he said they were all too long and "too fussy." It's been reported that Yanosey has since seen the light--not something I can personally vouch for--but I'm not aware of a single Sweetland book which doesn't contain bunches of errors. Sweetland's Morning Sun book on the "SP in Color" has some captions which will make you laugh out loud they are so wrong. I've given people the same advice about Sweetland that I do about the Henderson freight car books: enjoy the photos but put your thumb over the captions while doing so, lest the foolishness seep into your system. And please note I referred to "Henderson," NOT by any means "Hendrickson." Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
I have heard this several times about the "Classic Freight Cars" books. Have any of the "indignant cognoscenti" prepared errata sheets and posted/published them so as to get the right information out there and available to the book's purchasers?
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KL ----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson I've given people the same advice about Sweetland that I do about the Henderson freight car books: enjoy the photos but put your thumb over the captions while doing so, lest the foolishness seep into your system. |
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cinderandeight@...
Guys,
I agree with so much of what you are all saying. Recently I was asked "off handedly" if I could help with the captions of a new book. I agreed, and the next day I received over 80 photos to caption, so I emailed back asking for a timeframe for publication, and when he'd like the captions. The answer was "the book is due out at the end of next month (six weeks away), and I needed the captions two weeks ago." I spent the next 7 days almost completely writing and rewriting captions, farming out a small number and getting constant bombardments of emails from the impatient editor. The book was out on time, but given more time I certainly could have done a lot better job. Errors might have crept into the process, but I tried to keep the captions "within my base of knowledge". We all have a few misconceptions from time to time, the learning process is ongoing for everyone. Payment for a weeks work? A free copy of the book, and the feeling you helped record history. This is pretty typical. I wrote the freight car section for a well known PRR book back in 1993 and got the same constant harassment from its editor. In the end I cut off the effort at the forth rewrite of the text. I have my free book, and the feeling I did as good a job as I could while working 10 hours days, six days a week at a hard outside job. (I can see Bruce Smith running to his book shelf to figure out which book it was!) Is possibly a rule of thumb that the more the captioner gets for his work, the less likely it will be right? Most of us do this for the love of it yet. Rich Burg **************Huge savings on HDTVs from Dell.com! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221836042x1201399880/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.ne t%2Fclk%3B215073686%3B37034322%3Bb) |
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water.kresse@...
Guys,
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Dave Hickcox (C&O Color Guide, Morning Sun) had the caption process down correct -- bring in the "experts" for beer and treats in a hotel room after a local train show and have them review the captions with the slides in front of them with him making the corrections/additions on 3 x5 cards for each slide. Short and sweet for the reviewers. Payment: free book, good friendship and help/leads in the future. Al Kresse ----- Original Message -----
From: cinderandeight@... To: STMFC@... Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:19:34 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [STMFC] Re: The growing problem of erroneous captions Guys, I agree with so much of what you are all saying. Recently I was asked "off handedly" if I could help with the captions of a new book. I agreed, and the next day I received over 80 photos to caption, so I emailed back asking for a timeframe for publication, and when he'd like the captions. The answer was "the book is due out at the end of next month (six weeks away), and I needed the captions two weeks ago." I spent the next 7 days almost completely writing and rewriting captions, farming out a small number and getting constant bombardments of emails from the impatient editor. The book was out on time, but given more time I certainly could have done a lot better job. Errors might have crept into the process, but I tried to keep the captions "within my base of knowledge". We all have a few misconceptions from time to time, the learning process is ongoing for everyone. Payment for a weeks work? A free copy of the book, and the feeling you helped record history. This is pretty typical. I wrote the freight car section for a well known PRR book back in 1993 and got the same constant harassment from its editor. In the end I cut off the effort at the forth rewrite of the text. I have my free book, and the feeling I did as good a job as I could while working 10 hours days, six days a week at a hard outside job. (I can see Bruce Smith running to his book shelf to figure out which book it was!) Is possibly a rule of thumb that the more the captioner gets for his work, the less likely it will be right? Most of us do this for the love of it yet. Rich Burg **************Huge savings on HDTVs from Dell.com! ( http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221836042x1201399880/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.ne t%2Fclk%3B215073686%3B37034322%3Bb) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
Did anyone graph the accuracy vs. beers consumed quotient? :-)
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----- Original Message -----
From: water.kresse@... Dave Hickcox (C&O Color Guide, Morning Sun) had the caption process down correct -- bring in the "experts" for beer and treats . . . |
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jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
Craig Bossler did the same thing for the B&O freight car book.
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Except .... 1. The B&O point of contact pointedly did not invite our main B&O freight car expert to the evening slide show, mostly because that contact person wanted to be the big hero with no competition. Inexcusable. 2. Mr. Bossler had earler submitted a prelimiary draft to Morning Sun. When he sent the updated revised manuscript to the publisher, he was told the first one was good enough. So none of the B&O expert input was used and it shows. There is a major error in every other caption. A credible first draft, but it is not reliable enough for even reference. With Morning Sun, TLC and many other railroad publishers, all value added comes from the author. There is no such thing as a first draft. The first and only submitted draft needs to be flawless. To quote Henry Ford, "All history is bunk." He is so right. --- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:
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jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
Two examples:
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1) When I visited the Charles Kettering archives at the General Motors Institute library (GMI, Flint, Mich.) a few years ago, I found reference to a photo of Mr. Kettering with B&O's CMO George Emerson in the finding aids. Emerson photos are rare. Upon retrieval, the actual photo was not Emerson, but his B&O boss, Vice President C. W. Galloway, at the controls of the first EMC EA in 1937. When I informed the curator of this mistake, he said that Mr. Kettering said it was Mr. Emerson and that was the way it would remain. (Who am I to question the original source?) Freight car content: at the time it was open to the public every day (I have no idea how GM's finaicial troubles affect their library but it can't be good), this libary had a COMPLETE set of SAE papers, including railroad rolling stock topics. This is impossible to find elsewhere. Most libraries just have the bound transactions, a greatest hits treatment. Which reminds me of .... 2) At the Barriger 15 years ago, I found a Porter Industrial Locomotive Catalog in the Union Pacific gas turbine file. A grtoss mistake. The then curator responded that if it was there, Mr. Barriger must have had a good reason to put it there. This misfiling was before much of this was cataloged, hence impossible to find with finding aids. Provinance is king, even when absurdly wrong. --- In STMFC@..., "Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote:
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
jim mischke wrote:
2. Mr. Bossler had earler submitted a prelimiary draft to Morning Sun. When he sent the updated revised manuscript to the publisher, he was told the first one was good enough. So none of the B&O expert input was used and it shows.Sounds like our boy Yanosey. With Morning Sun, TLC and many other railroad publishers, all value added comes from the author. There is no such thing as a first draft. The first and only submitted draft needs to be flawless.Um, maybe not all publishers? <g> We ordinarily edit extensively, except with the rare author who really gets it all right himself. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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