Eastern Canadian Coal


Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Speaking of U.S. products going into Canada in discussing the IC twin hopper decals raises a question for me. As I expect most of us are aware, Bristish Columbia produces a lot of coal. At present most of this seems to be exported to markets in the Orient. The other great producer of coal in Canada is Nova Scotia, particularly around Springhill and at the outer end of Cape Breton Island. I can well remember first arriving in Springhill as a youngster with my parents on the way to the Kentville area to visit cousins. It was a late afternoon in 1954 and the town seemed deserted. The Springhill Disaster, a major cave-in within the mines there, had occurred only hours before and everyone was at the minehead awaiting the fate of family members, relatives or neighbors who worked in them. But on that trip and many subsequent visits over the years I can never recall seeing the number of hoppers one would expect to move all the coal produced in Nova Scotia. I have seen an occasional photo of a CNR or CPR twin hopper but cannot recall seeing a triple hopper from either road. And what about the little Sydney & Louisberg? I don't recall ever seeing a photo of a hopper from that road other than on Cape Breton Island. So how was all of this Nova Scotia mined coal moved, particularly from Springhill, which had no deepwater port nearby. Wasn't any of this coal transported to Quebec or Ontario for use or were those provinces nearly wholly dependent on U.S coal???

Thanks for any imput, Don Valentine


Tim O'Connor
 

Don, the Nova Scotia coal field is adjacent to the ocean.
Most of the coal must have moved very short distances by
rail, if it moved by rail at all. The mining is on a far
smaller scale than in western Canada. The map shows Sydney
as the location of the port.

http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfcfa00.htm
http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfhist.htm

The distance from B.C. to Toronto by rail is much, much
further than from the eastern U.S. I think the stripmines
in B.C. and Alberta didn't really crank up production
until long after the STMFC era.

Tim O.



Speaking of U.S. products going into Canada in discussing the IC twin hopper decals raises a question for me. As I expect most of us are aware, Bristish Columbia produces a lot of coal. At present most of this seems to be exported to markets in the Orient. The other great producer of coal in Canada is Nova Scotia, particularly around Springhill and at the outer end of Cape Breton Island. I can well remember first arriving in Springhill as a youngster with my parents on the way to the Kentville area to visit cousins. It was a late afternoon in 1954 and the town seemed deserted. The Springhill Disaster, a major cave-in within the mines there, had occurred only hours before and everyone was at the minehead awaiting the fate of family members, relatives or neighbors who worked in them. But on that trip and many subsequent visits over the years I can never recall seeing the number of hoppers one would expect to move all the coal produced in Nova Scotia. I have seen an occasional photo
of a CNR or CPR twin hopper but cannot recall seeing a triple hopper from either road. And what about the little Sydney & Louisberg? I don't recall ever seeing a photo of a hopper from that road other than on Cape Breton Island. So how was all of this Nova Scotia mined coal moved, particularly from Springhill, which had no deepwater port nearby. Wasn't any of this coal transported to Quebec or Ontario for use or were those provinces nearly wholly dependent on U.S coal???
Thanks for any imput, Don Valentine


water.kresse@...
 

How does one get to see those images across the top of the page?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 12:49:24 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Eastern Canadian Coal

Don, the Nova Scotia coal field is adjacent to the ocean.
Most of the coal must have moved very short distances by
rail, if it moved by rail at all. The mining is on a far
smaller scale than in western Canada. The map shows Sydney
as the location of the port.

http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfcfa00.htm
http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfhist.htm

The distance from B.C. to Toronto by rail is much, much
further than from the eastern U.S. I think the stripmines
in B.C. and Alberta didn't really crank up production
until long after the STMFC era.

Tim O.



Speaking of U.S. products going into Canada in discussing the IC twin hopper decals raises a question for me. As I expect most of us are aware, Bristish Columbia produces a lot of coal. At present most of this seems to be exported to markets in the Orient. The other great producer of coal in Canada is Nova Scotia, particularly around Springhill and at the outer end of Cape Breton Island. I can well remember first arriving in Springhill as a youngster with my parents on the way to the Kentville area to visit cousins. It was a late afternoon in 1954 and the town seemed deserted. The Springhill Disaster, a major cave-in within the mines there, had occurred only hours before and everyone was at the minehead awaiting the fate of family members, relatives or neighbors who worked in them. But on that trip and many subsequent visits over the years I can never recall seeing the number of hoppers one would expect to move all the coal produced in Nova Scotia. I have seen an occasional photo
 of a CNR or CPR twin hopper but cannot recall seeing a triple hopper from either road. And what about the little Sydney & Louisberg? I don't recall ever seeing a photo of a hopper from that road other than on Cape Breton Island. So how was all of this Nova Scotia mined coal moved, particularly from Springhill, which had no deepwater port nearby. Wasn't any of this coal transported to Quebec or Ontario for use or were those provinces nearly wholly dependent on U.S coal???
Thanks for any imput, Don Valentine


John Riddell <jriddell@...>
 

Tim,



Coal has been an important resource mined at many locations in western Canada for over 150 years.



In the STMFC era, coal consumption of railways in Canada was as follows --

Nova Scotia bituminous coal was used in all Maritime Provinces and Quebec and as far west as Cornwall, Ontario. NS coal was shipped mainly by barge from Sydney.



US coal was imported for Ontario (west of Cornwall), Manitoba and Saskatchewan (as far west as Regina and Saskatoon). CPR obtained U.S. coal from Cambridge Collieries in Cambridge, Ohio, in which CPR had a heavy financial interest. CNR similarly had interests in a U.S. mine. U.S. coal was often shipped by boat on the great lakes or by rail during the winter.



Coal from mines at Crowsnest Pass and Canmore and Bankhead, Alberta was used in western Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Coal from the many mines in the Crowsnest Pass was used in southern Alberta and southern B.C.

Coal from Jasper Park mines was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific lines west of Watrous, Saskatchewan and between Edmonton and Calgary.



Coal from mines on Vancouver Island was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific line east from Prince George.



Hope this helps.



John Riddell


Charles Morrill
 

Don,
I recieved this answer from Ted Doyle who is very familier with Springhill ----

Springhill coal was shipped by both rail and sea.

There was a short line railroad (Cumberland Country Railway and Coal
Company, something like that - long gone) that ran from Springhill to
Parrsboro NS, a deepwater seaport on the Bay of Fundy. Parrsboro was
approximately 25 miles south of Springhill and the railroad ran down
hill all the way. Thus all that was needed were to operate the line
were a pair of 2-8-0s. I don't think they were double headed but
don't know for sure. Parrsboro had a decent dock for loading the coal.

The CNR had a branch line from Springhill mines to Springhill
Junction, about three miles north of Springhill. As with the
Parrsboro line the CNR branch was down hill all the way to the
Junction. From there coal was shipped to much of Canada especially
Quebec and Ontario.

After the 'bump' in 1957 that killed many miners, the mines were shut
down permanently. Many miners moved to other coal producing areas.
Some settled BC and Alberta. Not mentioned in the post clip you send,
but there were several mines serviced by the CNR just east of Jasper
and outside the National Park.

Hope this helps.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald B. Valentine" <riverman_vt@...>

Speaking of U.S. products going into Canada in discussing the IC twin hopper decals raises a question for me. As I expect most of us are aware, Bristish Columbia produces a lot of coal. At present most of this seems to be exported to markets in the Orient. The other great producer of coal in Canada is Nova Scotia, particularly around Springhill and at the outer end of Cape Breton Island. I can well remember first arriving in Springhill as a youngster with my parents on the way to the Kentville area to visit cousins. It was a late afternoon in 1954 and the town seemed deserted. The Springhill Disaster, a major cave-in within the mines there, had occurred only hours before and everyone was at the minehead awaiting the fate of family members, relatives or neighbors who worked in them. But on that trip and many subsequent visits over the years I can never recall seeing the number of hoppers one would expect to move all the coal produced in Nova Scotia. I have seen an occasional photo of a CNR or CPR twin hopper but cannot recall seeing a triple hopper from either road. And what about the little Sydney & Louisberg? I don't recall ever seeing a photo of a hopper from that road other than on Cape Breton Island. So how was all of this Nova Scotia mined coal moved, particularly from Springhill, which had no deepwater port nearby. Wasn't any of this coal transported to Quebec or Ontario for use or were those provinces nearly wholly dependent on U.S coal???

Thanks for any imput, Don Valentine


Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...>
 

Coal from the US was brought in by rail car and ferried across the St.
Lawrence River to Prescott, Ontario from Ogdensburg NY. I've received
copies of pictures showing B&O hoppers on the NYC docks in Ogdensburg
and in trains up the CP Prescott Sub from Prescott.

CN used more Maritimes coal farther west because they were the
government road and therefore more willing to pay more and haul it
further than CP, a private company.

Alan


2009/6/7 John Riddell <jriddell@...>:
Tim,



Coal has been an important resource mined at many locations in western Canada for over 150 years.



In the STMFC era, coal consumption of railways in Canada was as follows --

Nova Scotia bituminous coal was used in all Maritime Provinces and Quebec and as far west as Cornwall, Ontario. NS coal was shipped  mainly by barge from Sydney.



US coal was imported for Ontario (west of Cornwall), Manitoba and Saskatchewan (as far west as Regina and Saskatoon). CPR obtained U.S. coal from Cambridge Collieries in Cambridge, Ohio, in which CPR had a heavy financial interest.  CNR similarly had interests in a U.S. mine. U.S. coal was often shipped by boat on the great lakes or by rail during the winter.



Coal from mines at Crowsnest Pass and Canmore and Bankhead, Alberta was used in western Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Coal from the many mines in the Crowsnest Pass was used in southern Alberta and southern B.C.

Coal from Jasper Park mines was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific lines west of Watrous, Saskatchewan and between Edmonton and Calgary.



Coal from mines on Vancouver Island was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific line east from Prince George.



Hope this helps.



John Riddell






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





--
--
Alan Palmer
http://rrgeekdev.googlepages.com/home


r1ddell <jriddell@...>
 

Alan,

Prescott was but one of many ports on the Great Lakes where U.S. coal was landed in Ontario. Others included Little Current, Jack Fish, Michipicoten, Fort William, Sault Ste. Marie, Depot Harbour, Key Harbour, Port Arthur, Port Maitland, Port Stanley, Port Burwell and Cobourg. Some imported in rail cars by railroad car ferry, some in bulk by coal boat.

On what evidence is your second paragraph based ? I have not seen any evidence to support that assertion. Published evidence indicates Cornwall was the farthest west that NS coal was shipped.

John Riddell

--- In STMFC@..., Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...> wrote:

Coal from the US was brought in by rail car and ferried across the St.
Lawrence River to Prescott, Ontario from Ogdensburg NY. I've received
copies of pictures showing B&O hoppers on the NYC docks in Ogdensburg
and in trains up the CP Prescott Sub from Prescott.

CN used more Maritimes coal farther west because they were the
government road and therefore more willing to pay more and haul it
further than CP, a private company.

Alan


2009/6/7 John Riddell <jriddell@...>:
Tim,

Coal has been an important resource mined at many locations in western Canada for over 150 years.

In the STMFC era, coal consumption of railways in Canada was as follows --

Nova Scotia bituminous coal was used in all Maritime Provinces and Quebec and as far west as Cornwall, Ontario. NS coal was shipped  mainly by barge from Sydney.

US coal was imported for Ontario (west of Cornwall), Manitoba and Saskatchewan (as far west as Regina and Saskatoon). CPR obtained U.S. coal from Cambridge Collieries in Cambridge, Ohio, in which CPR had a heavy financial interest.  CNR similarly had interests in a U.S. mine. U.S. coal was often shipped by boat on the great lakes or by rail during the winter.

Coal from mines at Crowsnest Pass and Canmore and Bankhead, Alberta was used in western Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Coal from the many mines in the Crowsnest Pass was used in southern Alberta and southern B.C.

Coal from Jasper Park mines was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific lines west of Watrous, Saskatchewan and between Edmonton and Calgary.

Coal from mines on Vancouver Island was used on the Grand Trunk Pacific line east from Prince George.

Hope this helps.

John Riddell
--
Alan Palmer
http://rrgeekdev.googlepages.com/home


Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Hi Tim,

I would agree that Most coal from Cape Breton must have moved by water, even if only around the Gaspe Peninsula and up the St. Lawrence River. But what about coal from Springhill??? With 40 ft. tides, said to be the highest in the world, at the northeast end of the Bay of Fundy, and the Minas Basin being one huge mud flat at low tide movement by water does not seem likely. I am not aware of anyplace on the Atlantic side of the isthmus connecting the major part of Nova Scotia to New Brusnwick where coal migh have been loaded for movement by sea either.

While I agree that the major development of the Western Canadian coal fields is largely a post STMFC occurrence I also suspect you would be surprised at the level of coal mining in BC prior to WW II.
But it is the Nova Scotia coalfields I am concerned with. It would seem the CNR must have moved much of it from the Springhill area but I've found little evidence of it.

Thanks for your response,
Don Valentine

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Don, the Nova Scotia coal field is adjacent to the ocean.
Most of the coal must have moved very short distances by
rail, if it moved by rail at all. The mining is on a far
smaller scale than in western Canada. The map shows Sydney
as the location of the port.

http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfcfa00.htm
http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfhist.htm

The distance from B.C. to Toronto by rail is much, much
further than from the eastern U.S. I think the stripmines
in B.C. and Alberta didn't really crank up production
until long after the STMFC era.

Tim O.


destron@...
 

Perhaps try asking on the CDN-frt-cars-n-ops Yahoogroup, or one of the CN
groups?

I'd guess that coal going to the Eastern Townships in Quebec and to
southern Ontario would have come from Nova Scotia, no? And I can't imagine
any attempt at water movements from Cape Breton to Sherbrooke meeting with
much success.

I'd also be interested in any information about where the S&L hoppers went
to, they did number above a thousand, IIRC...

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Donald B. Valentine wrote:

Hi Tim,

I would agree that Most coal from Cape Breton must have moved by
water, even if only around the Gaspe Peninsula and up the St. Lawrence
River. But what about coal from Springhill??? With 40 ft. tides, said
to be the highest in the world, at the northeast end of the Bay of
Fundy, and the Minas Basin being one huge mud flat at low tide
movement by water does not seem likely. I am not aware of anyplace on
the Atlantic side of the isthmus connecting the major part of Nova
Scotia to New Brusnwick where coal migh have been loaded for movement
by sea either.

While I agree that the major development of the Western Canadian coal
fields is largely a post STMFC occurrence I also suspect you would be
surprised at the level of coal mining in BC prior to WW II.
But it is the Nova Scotia coalfields I am concerned with. It would seem
the CNR must have moved much of it from the Springhill area but I've found
little evidence of it.

Thanks for your response,
Don Valentine



--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Don, the Nova Scotia coal field is adjacent to the ocean.
Most of the coal must have moved very short distances by
rail, if it moved by rail at all. The mining is on a far
smaller scale than in western Canada. The map shows Sydney
as the location of the port.

http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfcfa00.htm
http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfhist.htm

The distance from B.C. to Toronto by rail is much, much
further than from the eastern U.S. I think the stripmines
in B.C. and Alberta didn't really crank up production
until long after the STMFC era.

Tim O.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




!DSPAM:1291,4a2e724225631803714984!


Tim O'Connor
 

barges can sit on the bottom at low tide, i guess.

At 6/9/2009 08:21 AM Tuesday, you wrote:
Hi Tim,

I would agree that Most coal from Cape Breton must have moved by water, even if only around the Gaspe Peninsula and up the St. Lawrence River. But what about coal from Springhill??? With 40 ft. tides, said to be the highest in the world, at the northeast end of the Bay of Fundy, and the Minas Basin being one huge mud flat at low tide movement by water does not seem likely. I am not aware of anyplace on the Atlantic side of the isthmus connecting the major part of Nova Scotia to New Brusnwick where coal migh have been loaded for movement by sea either.

While I agree that the major development of the Western Canadian coal fields is largely a post STMFC occurrence I also suspect you would be surprised at the level of coal mining in BC prior to WW II.
But it is the Nova Scotia coalfields I am concerned with. It would seem the CNR must have moved much of it from the Springhill area but I've found little evidence of it.

Thanks for your response,
Don Valentine



--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Don, the Nova Scotia coal field is adjacent to the ocean.
Most of the coal must have moved very short distances by
rail, if it moved by rail at all. The mining is on a far
smaller scale than in western Canada. The map shows Sydney
as the location of the port.

http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfcfa00.htm
http://www.mininghistory.ns.ca/lfrost/lfhist.htm

The distance from B.C. to Toronto by rail is much, much
further than from the eastern U.S. I think the stripmines
in B.C. and Alberta didn't really crank up production
until long after the STMFC era.

Tim O.


John Riddell <jriddell@...>
 

Frank,

The 975 S&L twin hoppers were built between 1948 and 1953 by Eastern Car. The S&L was expropriated by the Devco Railway in 1968 after which these hoppers retained their S&L numbers with the DR reporting marks.

See Morning Sun book 'Canadian Railways volume 1' for pictures and more info on S&L, Old Sydney Collieries Co., Maritime Coal Railway & Power Co., Devco Railway, and Cumberland Railway & Coal. Co.

The Cumberland Railway & Coal Co shops were in Springhill. It had 32 miles of track from Parrsboro to Springhill Junction where it connected with the CN. It operated from 1884 to 1958. It had 6 locos in 1921.

John Riddell


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

I've posted a photo of a prototype Sydney and Louisburg hopper car, and an HO model of same, to the "Steve Lucas" album in the photo section.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "John Riddell" <jriddell@...> wrote:

Frank,

The 975 S&L twin hoppers were built between 1948 and 1953 by Eastern Car. The S&L was expropriated by the Devco Railway in 1968 after which these hoppers retained their S&L numbers with the DR reporting marks.

See Morning Sun book 'Canadian Railways volume 1' for pictures and more info on S&L, Old Sydney Collieries Co., Maritime Coal Railway & Power Co., Devco Railway, and Cumberland Railway & Coal. Co.

The Cumberland Railway & Coal Co shops were in Springhill. It had 32 miles of track from Parrsboro to Springhill Junction where it connected with the CN. It operated from 1884 to 1958. It had 6 locos in 1921.

John Riddell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]