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FYI: Choices. Caveat Emptor
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Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
I am reporting the following very recent serendipitous comparative buying experiences. In both instances, the object purchased weighed between 0.2-0.3 oz. and both were the physical size and thickness of a large fat postcard. There were compelling reasons to order from these two places.
Walthers (on-line): price: MSRP. Time betw. order acknowledgement and shipping: 5 days. Time betw. ship and receive: 7 days. Ship cost: $8.95. Caboose Hobbies (Denver) on line: price: minor disc. Order acknowl. & ship: N/A (back order). Time betw ship & receive: 2 days. Ship cost $1.68. The difference is pretty breathtaking, especially as Walthers now adds on California's 10% sales tax. I protested up front the shipping charge, but it was to no avail. Whew! Denny |
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Jack Burgess <jack@...>
I have long used Caboose Hobbies as my primary on-line hobby shop for most
orders. It is also nice to be able to call them directly with questions and have a knowledgeable person answer. One exception is very large orders of Grandt Line parts...even though I must pay sales tax, they will have everything in stock and ship out quickly; just call them. Likewise, I order Precision Scale parts directly... Jack Burgess www.yosemitevalleyrr.com |
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
Walthers (on-line): price: MSRP. Time betw. order acknowledgementand shipping: 5 days. Time betw. ship and receive: 7 days. Ship cost: $8.95. Caboose Hobbies (Denver) on line: price: minor disc. Order acknowl. & ship: N/A (back order). Time betw ship & receive: 2 days. Ship cost $1.68. The difference is pretty breathtaking, especially as Walthers now adds on California's 10% sales tax. I protested up front the shipping charge, but it was to no avail.< Those that don't have store fronts in CA basically keep the sales tax as extra profit. If Walthers could show they send the tax to CA I would retract that statement. Small shipments should be with the USPO and most can go for first class postage. Large companies like Walthers need to pay the shipping and receiving staff and usually contract with UPS or FedEx. Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Jon Miller wrote:
Those that don't have store fronts in CA basically keep the sales tax as extra profit. If Walthers could show they send the tax to CA I would retract that statement.Jon, you are accusing Walthers of fraud. I'd watch my step if I were you, for fairness if nothing else. Small shipments should be with the USPO and most can go for first class postage. Large companies like Walthers need to pay the shipping and receiving staff and usually contract with UPS or FedEx.Jon, EVERYBODY needs to pay someone to do shipping. "Picking and packing" an order naturally takes time and effort, and is unrelated to who transmits the final package. Walthers, like anyone in business, knows perfectly well that the USPS is cheaper for smaller and lighter packages, more expensive for large or heavy ones, and is almost always slower than the commercial services. And if you want guaranteed delivery times and decent tracking, the USPS services are not really cheaper. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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The Post Office allows you to send small packagesJon, EVERYBODY needs to pay someone to do shipping. (one or two freight cars) for first class postage if it weights 13 oz or less. It's cheaper than any other method I know. I found a source for small 1st class boxes here: http://www.ptipackaging.com/Qstore/p001726.htm Tim O'Connor |
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Mark
UPS and FEDEX ship through the USPS. I have witnessed this at our post office.
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And Walthers does have a staff like most businesses for shipping. Packaging material is expensive, use to get packing peanuts free. Everyone has a favorite and a bad story or two! Mark Morgan --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> Subject: Re: [STMFC] FYI: Choices. Caveat Emptor To: STMFC@... Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 7:35 PM Jon Miller wrote: Those that don't have store fronts in CA basically keep the sales tax as extra profit. If Walthers could show they send the tax to CA I would retract that statement. Jon, you are accusing Walthers of fraud. I'd watch my step if I were you, for fairness if nothing else. Small shipments should be with the USPO and most can go for first class postage. Large companies like Walthers need to pay the shipping and receiving staff and usually contract with UPS or FedEx. Jon, EVERYBODY needs to pay someone to do shipping. "Picking and packing" an order naturally takes time and effort, and is unrelated to who transmits the final package. Walthers, like anyone in business, knows perfectly well that the USPS is cheaper for smaller and lighter packages, more expensive for large or heavy ones, and is almost always slower than the commercial services. And if you want guaranteed delivery times and decent tracking, the USPS services are not really cheaper. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress. com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep ress.com Publishers of books on railroad history [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
"Picking and packing" an order naturally takes time and effort, and isunrelated to who transmits the final package. Walthers, like anyone in business, knows perfectly well that the USPS is cheaper for smaller and lighter packages,< I got an order from Walthers just a couple of weeks ago. Small lens for my 2-8-8-2. He was generous and gave me the lens for just the shipping cost, $7.95. I do business with a lot of smaller dealers who tend to just charge me the actual shipping cost. Just received an order today of 8 pair of trucks (less wheels) in a first class envelope ($2.50 shipping). When a seller has a department that does picking, packing, and handling (more than a couple of employees) they just tend to charge a flat shipping cost no matter what the size of the item. Jon, you are accusing Walthers of fraud. I'd watch my step if Iwere you, for fairness if nothing else.< I have found this to be common. Like I said if they actually give the money to the state then the charge is just fine. However I don't know of any warehouse or other ownership that Walthers has in the state. If they do I would love to hear of it. When I have questioned this of any other business that charges CA tax I have always been told of the location they have that requires them to do so. Think I will give Walthers a call and ask. Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS |
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Jon, I live in Massachusetts, and I've bought several times
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from Walthers direct, and I've never been charged sales tax. I think California law may be different. I doubt Walthers is committing fraud! Tim O'Connor I have found this to be common. Like I said if they actually give the |
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John Wark
A couple of observations...
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1. we're way off topic here (and I'm about to dig the hole a bit deeper, sorry). 2. loosely accusing a company of tax fraud is beyond the pale. There is significant civil and criminal exposure for companies and their officers that fudge on these issues. (yes, "fudge" is a technical term in this context.) 3. the question of when a business, especially an online merchant, must collect sales tax in a given state gets very complex, very quickly. In general, a company must collect (and remit to the state!) sales tax if it has something called "nexus" in the state. Rules for what constitutes nexus vary from state to state within a broad overall framework created by the commerce clause of the U.S. constitution. Fastest way to get nexus is to have an office in the state, but even a remote employee working from home can create nexus. In states that are most aggressive in searching for more tax revenue (yes, that means you California) and have configured their laws accordingly, nexus may not require an office. The growth of online sales has added a lot more complexity in this area - it's a lot of money that states want a piece of, so regulations are constantly changing. Given that, even experts can disagree as to what constitutes nexus. 4. Compliance costs for companies that deal with sales and use taxes are high. Audits are VERY common - and all 50 states have active tax authorities just looking for companies that may not be collecting taxes the state thinks it is due. No company of any size stays off the radar screens of state tax authorities for long. No reputable company is going to collect state sales taxes and then hold them - the risks are just too great. This isn't a big risk for the myriad of small producers in an industry as small as model railroading but someone like Walthers is big enough to be visible. 5. How about we just assume that one of the largest and oldest companies serving our hobby is reputable and knows something about what it's doing relative to sales taxes. We may not like its policy on shipping costs (a very different topic) but let's not casually assume they are criminals. 6. ok, I'm going back to freight cars (kicking his soapbox back under the layout) and I promise to go back to lurking on this group. Unless of course someone can tell me what type of service the NC&StL was using its 15 or so container gondolas for circa 1951 (mandatory freight car content but also a serious question). John Wark North Nexus, TN On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:39 PM, Jon Miller <atsf@...> wrote:
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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
Tim and all,
I have just found out that Walthers has purchased a location in CA. This presents in CA requires them to charge CA tax (to CA residents) and probably maintain the high cost records that go with it. Last post, back to freight cars! Jon Miller AT&SF For me time has stopped in 1941 Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS |
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Greg Martin
Tim is correct if I recall California is one state that requires that a retailer collect taxes on items shipped into California (taking possession of product)?but of course you have to report it to them as well.?Some retailers ignore it and some do not.
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Greg Martin -----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:21 am Subject: [STMFC] Re: FYI: Choices. Caveat Emptor Jon, I live in Massachusetts, and I've bought several times from Walthers direct, and I've never been charged sales tax. I think California law may be different. I doubt Walthers is committing fraud! Tim O'Connor I have found this to be common. Like I said if they actually give the |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Greg Martin wrote:
Tim is correct if I recall California is one state that requires that a retailer collect taxes on items shipped into California (taking possession of product)?but of course you have to report it to them as well.?Some retailers ignore it and some do not.If Greg is right, there are an awful lot of retailers, phone, mail and internet, who ignore the rule. And speaking as a publisher who ships all over the country, I have never heard from ANY state which wants us to collect taxes for THEM. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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When I mail ordered my Dell computer from Texas, I had to pay
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Massachusetts sales tax. I think Massachusetts has a law but it is only enforced for big ticket items like computers -- and especially, automobiles! (If you buy a car out of state, and try to register it, they'll whack you for the tax.) Dell may have offices in this state, so that may be the key. I've never paid MA sales tax on an out of state freight car! Tim O. If Greg is right, there are an awful lot of retailers, phone, |
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Don Burn
Actually, Massachusetts has a law that says anything mail-ordered out-of-state you have to pay the sales tax. It does not require the retailer to do it unless they have an operation in the state. Most people just ignore the law (until an audit) but if you own a small business they are very tough on this.
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Don Burn - living in a house with two small businesses ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 3:43 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: FYI: Choices. Caveat Emptor
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4149 (20090611) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Don Burn wrote:
Actually, Massachusetts has a law that says anything mail-ordered out-of-state you have to pay the sales tax. It does not require the retailer to do it unless they have an operation in the state.To my understanding, the California law is the same as this. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Mark Pierce <marcoperforar@...>
For all the decades I've been a resident of California, the state has always required payment of sales tax for registered vehicles (cars, trucks, boats, etc.) to the extent CA sales tax exceeded the amount of sales tax in the state the item was purchased. That was easy for the state to monitor.
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In recent years California has asked income-tax filers to self-report out-of-state purchases and to pay sales tax on them. I don't consider that a sales tax because in my mind a sales tax is on the seller (who usually has itemized it on the purchaser's invoice.) In the case of out of state purchases where the buyer remits payment directly to the state. it is a purchase tax. Mark Pierce --- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
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Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
If you will recall, all I did was to" report the news on this issue", without only a warning (Caveat Emptor) to alert the smart people who inhabit this list. I expressed no opinion, or judgment of just how the editorial "you" might want to subsequently purchase your essential prototype freight car modeling supplies, nor how to either view or pay-up your just taxes. Some may be now actually quite thankful to know how to grab this chance to easily pay more to their struggling grateful governments.
Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento |
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Roger Miener <Roger.Miener@...>
Mark Pierce said:
In recent years California has asked income-tax filers toself-report out-of-state purchases and to pay sales tax on them. I don't consider that a sales tax because in my mind a sales tax is on the seller (who usually has itemized it on the purchaser's invoice.) In the case of out of state purchases where the buyer remits payment directly to the state. it is a purchase tax. Mark, If you check, I think that you will find that the state in question considers the sales tax in question to be an excise tax; i.e., a tax upon the "priviledge of buying." The tax is collected by the seller but is to be paid by the buyer. A sales tax is a tax on the buyer. If that is what you mean by a "purchase tax", then so be it. If the seller fails to collect the sales tax or, if as is the case in Oregon where there is no sales tax and thus none is paid at the time of the initial sale, a new tax is then typically imposed by the state where the buyer is resident and that state calls it a "use tax" (also an excise tax - this time it is on the "priviledge of owning". Many of you never knew that you had all those "privileges", or that they were taxable, did you? Either way you cut it, it is a tax nonetheless. And, you have yet to meet a state that didn't like to tax everything it could. As Doc Denny says, "Some may be now actually quite thankful to know how to grab this chance to easily pay more to their struggling grateful governments." Right!!! Certainly, the State of Washington grabs every dollar it can. The State of Washington has both a sales tax *and* a use tax. Roger J Miener at Tacoma WA USA |
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Westerfield <westerfield@...>
So does Tennesse plus anything purchased out of state and brought into Tennessee. Since TN has no income tax the sales tax is quite high. Many drive across the border to Georgia to make major purchases. Occasionally the state police will pull you over if they see something like a giant rug hanging out the back of your car. - Al
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----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson To: STMFC@... Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: FYI: Choices. Caveat Emptor Don Burn wrote: > Actually, Massachusetts has a law that says anything mail-ordered > out-of-state you have to pay the sales tax. It does not require the > retailer to do it unless they have an operation in the state. To my understanding, the California law is the same as this. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Mark Pierce <marcoperforar@...>
Al, my understanding is that there are no income taxes in Tennessee on salaries and wages, but that there are taxes on interest and dividend income. While the state's various sales tax rates approach California's, all income (with minor exception)is subject to income tax in the Golden State. Food purchases, fortunately, aren't subject to sales tax in California. Nevertheless, more citizens abandon California residence than citizens that establish residence there. Anyway, hope the situation in Tennessee isn't as it is in California.
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Mark Pierce --- In STMFC@..., " Westerfield" <westerfield@...> wrote:
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