Date
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Color of the PRR X31 Boxcar at Cajon Pass
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rwitt_2000
Does any one wish to comments about the color of the PRR X31 boxcar also
captured in this sequence of photos from Cajon Pass. http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/cp/cajon_64.html <http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/cp/cajon_64.html> It is less like the bright oxide red that some freight car people describe. The colors do not appear to be shifted in these reproductions. Bob Witt Indianapolis, Indiana
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On Jun 25, 2009, at 2:38 PM, rwitt_2000 wrote:
Does any one wish to comments about the color of the PRR X31 boxcar alsoBob, PRR's FCC (freight car color) varied depending on the era. The car shown is in the shadow keystone scheme, which would have been a more red-brown, less orange color than a car in the ball/circle keystone scheme. In addition, the car shown has significant weathering of the body paint, which appears to be an all-over sooty brown, also darkening the apparent color of the paint. So to sum it up, it looks like a nicely weathered X31A, the color seems to be accurately captured (not shifted), but it should not be misconstrued to represent anything like the original color. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2 "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0
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rwitt_2000
--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Bruce Smith replied: Bob, Bruce, Thank you for your reply. Yes, it is a nicely weathered X31A. This is the color and appearance of PRR boxcars I remember from my days spent in freight yards in the 1960's. I don't recall observing a PRR boxcar in the ball/circle keystone P&L scheme. Regards, Bob Witt Indianapolis, Indiana
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Bob
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PRR went to a darker color, more like Conrail alkyd brown, when it adopted the shadow keystone scheme. I seem to recall many emails to this effect.
At 6/25/2009 03:38 PM Thursday, you wrote:
Does any one wish to comments about the color of the PRR X31 boxcar also
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Bruce Smith wrote:
PRR's FCC (freight car color) varied depending on the era. The car shown is in the shadow keystone scheme, which would have been a more red-brown, less orange color than a car in the ball/circle keystone scheme. In addition, the car shown has significant weathering of the body paint, which appears to be an all-over sooty brown, alsoExtremely sensible and complete answer. Thanks, Bruce. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Jim Lancaster
--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
I went to Cajon Pass that day in 1964 to photograph passenger trains. I'm glad the freight cars are of interest as well. Jim Lancaster
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Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
I find just as instructive the colour shift on the GTW auto boxcar in the third photo, which would have likely been painted within the same time frame as the "shadow keystone" PRR car--circa 1956. The GTW used CN Red #11, and the colour shift from that standard CN system colour is quite marked in the photo.
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Steve Lucas.
--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
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SUVCWORR@...
Bob,
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You are correct.? It is a late '60's nearly brown paint color.? The PRR freight car color shifted dramatically towards brown after the adoption of synthetic pigments and continued to move towards brown until the end. Rich Orr
-----Original Message-----
From: rwitt_2000 <rwitt_2000@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2009 2:38 pm Subject: [STMFC] Color of the PRR X31 Boxcar at Cajon Pass Does any one wish to comments about the color of the PRR X31 boxcar also captured in this sequence of photos from Cajon Pass. http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/cp/cajon_64.html <http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/cp/cajon_64.html> It is less like the bright oxide red that some freight car people describe. The colors do not appear to be shifted in these reproductions. Bob Witt Indianapolis, Indiana ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
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Greg Martin
Steve and all,
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I found the photos to be a bit shifted as well and lacking a bit of saturation, perhaps it is a result of the age of the photos. I did a bit of color correction and the photos look far better. This allowed the color of the PRR boxcar to loose it brownish hue and come back around to what I would consider far closer to thePRR freight car color I have found. Though the colors of PRR boxcars did change over time there is good photo evidence that the initial color (see the Prophet's Penny book just released byt he PRRT&HS yes a shameless plug) of a new or newly repianted cars in the 50s, particularly during the introduction of the "Shadow Keystone/ Billboard lettering" paint scheme was a red oxide color but did naturally weather toward the deeper red-brownish color as is evidence in this photo, but the deeper red-brown color didn't appear on new or newly repainted until after the coverage of this list. Greg Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 9:56 am Subject: [STMFC] Re: Color of the PRR X31 Boxcar at Cajon Pass I find just as instructive the colour shift on the GTW auto boxcar in the third photo, which would have likely been painted within the same time frame as the "shadow keystone" PRR car--circa 1956. The GTW used CN Red #11, and the colour shift from that standard CN system colour is quite marked in the photo. Steve Lucas. --- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Greg Martin wrote:
I found the photos to be a bit shifted as well . . . I did a bit of color correction and the photos look far better. This allowed the color of the PRR boxcar to loose it brownish hue and come back around to what I would consider far closer to thePRR freight car color I have found.This is going into my list of favorite quotes (vbg>: "I color- corrected the photos until they had the color I wanted." Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Greg Martin
Actually below?is what?I wrote and it didn't include anything thing that said:
"I color-corrected the photos until I got the color I wanted" I have shot hundreds of photographs in the Cajon Pass area within years of this photo,?and I will again say that the color appears to be shifted and or less saturated than it should be, are you saying that slide and negative don't do this? Are you saying you know more about the subject matter? I guess you have to have a knowledge of the subject to make this judgement. I will not place the blame as to why the photo is not true to color, perhaps it was just time... Likely there are other factors.?Seems that others feel the same. I didn't adjust the color to get the color?I wanted, just what I believe is a?better representation?of the?subject overall, all the colors appeared to come around. Are you saying we shouldn't do this? If we are going to place a value judgement to the color?of a particular subject within the photo shouldn't someone question the color of the overall photo first??Come on Tony...?? Greg Martin "Steve and all, I found the photos to be a bit shifted as well and lacking a bit of saturation, perhaps it is a result of the age of the photos. I did a bit of color correction and the photos look far better. This allowed the color of the PRR boxcar to loose it brownish hue and come back around to what I would consider far closer to the PRR freight car color I have found. Though the colors of PRR boxcars did change over time there is good photo evidence that the initial color (see the Prophet's Pennsy book just released by the PRRT&HS yes a shameless plug) of a new or newly repainted cars in the 50s, particularly during the introduction of the "Shadow Keystone/ Billboard lettering" paint scheme was a red oxide color but did naturally weather toward the deeper red-brownish color as is evidence in this photo, but the deeper red-brown color didn't appear on new or newly repainted until after the coverage of this list. " If your going to add something to you list of all time favorite quotes you should qualify your quotes. Greg Martin Greg Martin wrote: I found the photos to be a bit shifted as well . . . I did a bit ofThis is going into my list of favorite quotes (vbg>: "I color- corrected the photos until they had the color I wanted." Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Greg Martin wrote:
I didn't adjust the color to get the color?I wanted, just what I believe is a?better representation?of the?subject overall, all the colors appeared to come around. Are you saying we shouldn't do this? If we are going to place a value judgement to the color?of a particular subject within the photo shouldn't someone question the color of the overall photo first??Come on Tony...??Gosh, a little defensive, Greg? Sure, you BELIEVED you knew the "right" color, regardless of the state of the color image, and corrected it to MATCH that BELIEF. Come on, Greg, this is what is known as a circular argument. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Guys;
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I have a piece of floorboard from an X31A given to me by Bruce Smith from a donor, that has FCC paint on it, unfaded by sunlight or surface abrasion, from one of the X31A I believe was rebuilt duing their big rebuilding campaign c.1959-60. The color is noticeably redder than that of the X31A in the color photo in question. If one also looks at the excellent photos of X31A in the Color Guides, one can also see the numerous and obvious color variations between the super shot of a recently repainted X31A in Circle Key paint c. 1949, versus those photographed later in the late 50's and 1960's, which are clearly browner, but not as brown as that in the photo you've been discussing. While all would agree that color photos may exhibit considerable color shift from that of the real thing, I also agree with those that believe this shot to be shifted toward brown, rather than red. My photos of the real thing also differed when I was shooting Kodachrome, which shifted toward red, versus Ektachrome, which shifted toward blue, versus Agfachrome, which was quite colorless when compared to either. These choices also had a dramatic effect on the outcome. BTW, I have been unable to find ANY out-of-the-bottle paint that matches the color of paint on the floorboard, which has hints of purple and/or maroon, and is quite unlike chips of earlier FCC I have seen (one of which is in the PRRT&HS archives). The latter, admittedly to my eyes only, I think closely resembles out-of-the-bottle Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red. Elden Gatwood
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 3:06 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Color of the PRR X31 Boxcar at Cajon Pass Greg Martin wrote: I found the photos to be a bit shifted as well . . . I did a bit ofThis is going into my list of favorite quotes (vbg>: "I color- corrected the photos until they had the color I wanted." Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... <mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> Publishers of books on railroad history
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We tend to forget the effects of air pollution, especially in
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industrial areas, in the years before the present. In just a few years the original paint could be seriously stained and damaged by standing for days at a time in a filthy industrial area with various airborne particles and acids raining down constantly. I have seen 1940's photos of cars less than 10 years old that look like the cars were dipped in an acid bath... Growing up in NJ I had first hand experience with the corrosive power of the air on automobile finishes -- and those were baked enamel coatings! Tim O'Connor
At 6/27/2009 12:56 PM Saturday, you wrote:
I find just as instructive the colour shift on the GTW auto boxcar in the third photo, which would have likely been painted within the same time frame as the "shadow keystone" PRR car--circa 1956. The GTW used CN Red #11, and the colour shift from that standard CN system colour is quite marked in the photo.
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What do you all think of Scalecoat #81, PRR Freight Car Red?
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I think this looks more like the later 1950's color. I think I have used the Modelflex LTOR as well and seem to recall it is similar. But of course red vary all over the map -- and I use Maroon in small amounts sometimes to shift the color. Tim O'Connr
I have a piece of floorboard from an X31A given to me by Bruce Smith from a
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rwitt_2000
"Gatwood, Elden wrote:
from a donor, that has FCC paint on it, unfaded by sunlight or surfaceabrasion, from one of the X31A I believe was rebuilt duing their big rebuildingX31A in the color photo in question.one can also see the numerous and obvious color variations between thesuper shot of a recently repainted X31A in Circle Key paint c. 1949, versus thosebrowner, but not as brown as that in the photo you've been discussing. Whileall would agree that color photos may exhibit considerable color shift from thatof the real thing, I also agree with those that believe this shot to beshifted toward brown, rather than red.Kodachrome, which shifted toward red, versus Ektachrome, which shifted towardblue, versus Agfachrome, which was quite colorless when compared to either.These choices also had a dramatic effect on the outcome. After the many comments on my post, I re-examined the photo with the X31A again and unless the soil is that "pink" at Cajon Pass I agree that this image has color shifted. Which way I am not sure. I understand there are some "standard" color correction algorithms to correct for the "aging" of slides, but as Elden Gatwood has noted each slide emulsion had its coloration when new so color emulsions never captured the "true" colors. Comparing paint samples in the same light maybe one can hope to achieve a correct match. Bob Witt Indianapolis, Indiana
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Bob Witt wrote:
captured the "true" colors. Comparing paint samples in the same light maybe one can hope to achieve a correct match.in my opinion, Bob, this is a fantasy. The identical car photographed at morning, noon and late afternoon will look distinctly different; likewise cloudy vs. clear days; low vs. high sun angle at different seasons, same time of day. This is not to mention varying dirt and fading and corrosive attack. I'd say there is NO SUCH THING as a "correct match." Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Tim;
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I agree; it looks more like the late 50's version of FCC. LTOR is redder and lighter, but again, just to my eyes. Given I currently have few cars that I have modeled right out of the shops, I am wrestling with what to usde for cars painted around that cut-off date of 1960. I especially need a paint mix for the color that cars came out of Sam Rea shops, particularly G41 and X58 classes. It was a very unique color, and gives me fits trying to figure out how to match. Any suggestions? Elden Gatwood
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:27 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: Color of the PRR X31 Boxcar at Cajon Pass What do you all think of Scalecoat #81, PRR Freight Car Red? I think this looks more like the later 1950's color. I think I have used the Modelflex LTOR as well and seem to recall it is similar. But of course red vary all over the map -- and I use Maroon in small amounts sometimes to shift the color. Tim O'Connr I have a piece of floorboard from an X31A given to me by Bruce SmithTuscan Oxide Red.
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I agree; it looks more like the late 50's version of FCC. LTOR is redder andI can't say since I never saw those cars freshly painted... I once painted an SP 50' combo door box car model (built 1960) with Accupaint Alkyd Brown because it was a good match to a photo of a new T&NO box car on the cover of Trains Illustrated. It clashes with almost all of my other SP freight cars, and yet since that time I have seen several more photos that show SP cars with that color. I think Tony is right - so much depends on ambient light, film, paint, fading, corrosion, etc, that we can use almost anything. Just don't paint everything the same! Tim O'Connor
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Richard Brennan <brennan8@...>
All
Given the fair number of recent comments on STMFC regarding the PRR freight car in Jim Lancaster's image at: http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/cp/cajon_pass_6-64_05_jl_ps.jpg (from his web page: http://www.geocities.com/jim_lancaster.geo/cp/cajon_64.html ), I have, with Jim's permission, attempted to upload a photo-montage showing the effects of color balance variation (using Adobe Photoshop) on his original image. The composite photo is pending approval (and should appear soon) at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/album/668884345/pic/list It demonstrates that an entire range of colors can be derived from the same original... and we've all seen photos, models and even prototypes, across the entire color range from warm (magenta/red) to cool (green/blue). In short, there is no "Correct" in color correction... only perception and preference, given the intrinsic variability of the subject's paint batch, age, condition, lighting, etc... and the ensuing imaging process, compression, and viewing environment. Richard =============================== Richard Brennan - San Leandro MP 17.8 on the SP Mulford Line mailto:brennan8@... ===============================
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