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Three bay PS2 covered hoppers

Schuyler Larrabee
 

In the most broad sense, what would these cars be found carrying?

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!






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Tim O'Connor
 

dry, bulk cargo

At 6/26/2009 01:10 AM Friday, you wrote:
In the most broad sense, what would these cars be found carrying?
SGL

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

SGL,
 
The Monon was an early user of these cars (1953) most of which made it all the way to the L&N merger in 1971.  They are known to have handled grain, flour, soy bean meal and late in life, sand.  They seemed to stay close to the home road and were dedicated to the product they were currently hauling.
 
The Athearn model released a couple of years ago is 100%correctct for the Monon cars decorated in boxcar red with white lettering.  Later cars were painted gray with black lettering.
 
Mont Switzer

--- On Fri, 6/26/09, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Subject: Re:[STMFC] Three bay PS2 covered hoppers
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 6:58 AM









dry, bulk cargo

At 6/26/2009 01:10 AM Friday, you wrote:
In the most broad sense, what would these cars be found carrying?
SGL

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Mont, Schuyler and Tim,

The Western Pacific and subsidiary Sacramento Northern owned several lots of these and similar cars, first purchased in 1958. They probably carried many things, among them rice. Their most unusual load of which I know was whole walnuts.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Mont Switzer wrote:

SGL,
The Monon was an early user of these cars (1953) most of which made it all the way to the L&N merger in 1971. They are known to have handled grain, flour, soy bean meal and late in life, sand. They seemed to stay close to the home road and were dedicated to the product they were currently hauling.
The Athearn model released a couple of years ago is 100%correctct for the Monon cars decorated in boxcar red with white lettering. Later cars were painted gray with black lettering.
Mont Switzer


--- On Fri, 6/26/09, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Subject: Re:[STMFC] Three bay PS2 covered hoppers
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 6:58 AM

dry, bulk cargo

At 6/26/2009 01:10 AM Friday, you wrote:

In the most broad sense, what would these cars be found carrying?
SGL


















Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
In the most broad sense, what would these cars be found carrying?
As with all covered hoppers, Schuyler, it could be anything in the correct density range and type. For example, the 70-ton PS-2 with 3 bays could not carry cement, as it's too dense for a fully loaded car (though there are known examples of these cars being used for cement service by only loading the two outer bays). Type? The cargo would also have to be of a size range to readily exit through the discharge hatches, and of a character to flow freely. (Airslides were developed to handle the types of cargo which would NOT flow freely by simply opening the outlets.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tony,

Didn't the SP use some of their 47' PS-2s in cement service? So if they were loaded light, did they carry any special stenciling?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Anthony Thompson wrote:

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

In the most broad sense, what would these cars be found carrying?
As with all covered hoppers, Schuyler, it could be anything in the correct density range and type. For example, the 70-ton PS-2 with 3 bays could not carry cement, as it's too dense for a fully loaded car (though there are known examples of these cars being used for cement service by only loading the two outer bays). Type? The cargo would also have to be of a size range to readily exit through the discharge hatches, and of a character to flow freely. (Airslides were developed to handle the types of cargo which would NOT flow freely by simply opening the outlets.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony Thompson wrote

As with all covered hoppers, Schuyler, it could be anything in
the correct density range and type. For example, the 70-ton PS-2
with 3 bays could not carry cement, as it's too dense for a fully
loaded car (though there are known examples of these cars being
used for cement service by only loading the two outer bays). Type?
The cargo would also have to be of a size range to readily exit
through the discharge hatches, and of a character to flow freely.
[nitpick: hatches for loading; outlets/gates for unloading]

Somewhat true, but gravity cars were (and still are) used to
move "fluidizable" cargo like flour and corn starch and talc
that is easier to unload with air assistance. That why they have
those car shaker brackets on them -- rapid mechanical shaking can
do the job. Many railroads opted for gravity-pneumatic outlets
later on so covered hoppers were more versatile. Absolute optimal
(full) loading is a more recent phenomenon; back in the 1950's
there was less financial incentive to maximize the tare weight.

Consider this table of 30-65lbs/cubic foot cargos that I'm pretty
sure were carried in PS2893/3215/3219's. (The larger cars are about
the same height & length, primarily differing in width.)

density lbs/cft
---------------
alumina, fine 35
aluminum shot 52
asphalt, crushed 45
barley 37-48
bentonite, crude 40
bentonite, fine 50
borax 60
boric acid 50
carbon black, pelletized 40
cinders 40
corn 45
dolomite, pulverized 45
flour 42
fly ash 45
grain sorghums 42
lime 50
malt 30
oat flour 35
oats 30
phosphate rock, pulverized 60
polyethylene pellets 35
rice 35
rye 44
salt, coarse 55
semolina 40
soda ash 40
soybean meal 40
soybeans 48
starch 40
sugar, refined 50
sulfur 65
wheat 48

I seem to recall that Santa Fe had some mineral cargos (perhaps
vermiculite/pearlite?) that also was transported in such cars.

Tim O'Connor

Tim O'Connor
 

Garth, almost all of the cars that remained in service received
100 ton trucks and this allowed them to be used for higher density
cargos -- in fact, 2893 is almost the optimal size for cement. But
I don't think they were used in the STMFC era for cement. Trona,
soda ash, potash and diatomaceous earth, yes -- but not cement. SP
bought lots of 2 bay 70 ton cars for that.

Tim

Tony,
Didn't the SP use some of their 47' PS-2s in cement service? So if they
were loaded light, did they carry any special stenciling?
Kind regards,
Garth G. Groff

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Garth G. Groff wrote:
Didn't the SP use some of their 47' PS-2s in cement service? So if they were loaded light, did they carry any special stenciling?
Yes, they did, and there's a photo in my Vol. 5 of such service in 1956, page 133. You can note in the photo that there is cement staining only on the hatches for the end compartments. I have not seen any special stenciling, however. I surmise that this inefficient use was a stopgap--SP received two more big classes of 2-bay PS-2s shortly afterward.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Garth, almost all of the cars that remained in service received 100 ton trucks and this allowed them to be used for higher density cargos . . .
When, Tim? As late as 1970, all these cars were still listed in the ORER as 70-ton capacity, and last time I checked, thats a bit past the STMFC era.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony, couldn't those be inbound loads of gypsum or other
raw material?

Tim

Garth G. Groff wrote:
Didn't the SP use some of their 47' PS-2s in cement service? So if
they were loaded light, did they carry any special stenciling?
Yes, they did, and there's a photo in my Vol. 5 of such service
in 1956, page 133. You can note in the photo that there is cement
staining only on the hatches for the end compartments. I have not seen
any special stenciling, however. I surmise that this inefficient use
was a stopgap--SP received two more big classes of 2-bay PS-2s shortly
afterward.

Tony Thompson

Tim O'Connor
 

You may be right -- I was probably thinking of the 3215/3219
cars, many of which were delivered as 90-100 tons cars.

At 6/26/2009 02:17 PM Friday, you wrote:
Tim O'Connor wrote:
Garth, almost all of the cars that remained in service received 100
ton trucks and this allowed them to be used for higher density
cargos . . .
When, Tim? As late as 1970, all these cars were still listed
in the ORER as 70-ton capacity, and last time I checked, thats a bit
past the STMFC era.

Tony Thompson

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tony, couldn't those be inbound loads of gypsum or other raw material?
To a cement plant? I've never heard of gypsum as a raw material for cement. Enlighten me, Tim.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Bruce Smith
 

On Jun 26, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tony, couldn't those be inbound loads of gypsum or other raw material?
To a cement plant? I've never heard of gypsum as a raw
material for cement. Enlighten me, Tim.
Tony,

How about Hydrocal? <VBG> Its a "gypsum cement".

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Tim O'Connor
 

Sheesh, Tony, answering your questions is getting to be a full time
job :-) Several million tons of gypsum is used annually as a retarder
in cement. (Source: the now defunct US Bureau of Mines)

Wikipedia: Gypsum -- A component of Portland cement used to prevent
flash setting of concrete.

So no, it is not a "raw material" -- but it's a heavily used additive.

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Tony, couldn't those be inbound loads of gypsum or other raw material?
To a cement plant? I've never heard of gypsum as a raw
material for cement. Enlighten me, Tim.

Tony Thompson

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

I wrote:
To a cement plant? I've never heard of gypsum as a raw material for cement. Enlighten me, Tim.
Gypsum is not a raw material for cement clinker (the stuff you run through the kiln), but is in fact used as an additive in the final cement product. It is there to help control setting time. I was obviously thinking too narrowly. Could those SP 3-bay PS-2s have been carrying gypsum? Maybe. The density of gypsum is around 2/3 of what cement typically is.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Sheesh, Tony, answering your questions is getting to be a full time job :-)
Yeah--but note that many of them are aimed at clarifying your remarks. :-)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

David North <davenorth@...>
 

SGL,

Data I was sent about Santa Fe 3 bay PS2 cars noted the following typical
loadings.

Alfalfa, Alumina, Barley, Borax, Clay, Corn, Flyash, Lime, Malt, Oats,
Potash, Rice, Soyabeans, Wheat.

Some assignments (some may be outside the date limits of this list) were

California Malting Co

Ralston Purina KC

Berven Rug Mills Fresno CA



Cheers

Dave North

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