Modelers research library


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

A great number of really well done books about freight cars have been published in the last few years. The prices of many of these books are high enough that some folks must give the matter long and serious consideration before making a purchase decision. The prices probably mean that only a few can buy them all.

DISCLAIMER: I have no quarrel with any publisher's prices.

Is anyone in this group a member of a club, round-robin group or other organization that has a library? I'm thinking here of Car Builders' Cycs, books from the various RR historical societies, the stuff Ted Culotta and Tony Thompson put out and so on.

Has any group of like-minded modelers gotten together and pooled their libraries in some manner?

Inter-library loan is a useful tool but there is a time limit on how long one can keep a book.

Gene Green


George R. Stilwell, Jr. <GRSJr@...>
 

I think a better alternative would be to scan the books into PDF files which could be loaned without the burden and danger of shipping the actual books.

If each owner scanned their book and added the PDF to the library, it would be a valuable resource for all members of the group.

Ray


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ray Stilwell wrote:
I think a better alternative would be to scan the books into PDF files which could be loaned without the burden and danger of shipping the actual books.
If each owner scanned their book and added the PDF to the library, it would be a valuable resource for all members of the group.
Are you aware that there can be a copyright issue in the process you describe?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Ray,
The PDF idea is a good one for those books and other publications on which the copyright is expired (is expired the correct term?) but everything published since sometime in the 1970s could not be "legally" scanned.

It is "legal" to loan a book because only one person can have it at
any given time but a PDF could be in the possession of many.

We are beginning to see Equipment Registers and at least one Locomotive Cyc on CD at prices way below what the original would cost on eBay or whereever one might be found.

Scanned copies, including the ads, of magazines such as Railway Review, Railway Age and Railway Mechanical Engineer would also have some utility.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., "George R. Stilwell, Jr." <GRSJr@...> wrote:

I think a better alternative would be to scan the books into PDF
files which could be loaned without the burden and danger of shipping
the actual books.

If each owner scanned their book and added the PDF to the library,
it would be a valuable resource for all members of the group.

Ray


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

All,
Please forgive my tardy reply. I was away for several days and came home to find I was more than 300 messages behind on this and another list. I started wading through them yesterday morning. I hope to have read them all by this evening.

In the future, if I am away from my computer for more than a day could you all refrain from posting messages until my return so I don't get so far behind? Just kidding!!! (VBG)

Gene Green
Back in the west Texas town of El Paso


Dave Nelson
 

Gene Green wrote:
Ray,
The PDF idea is a good one for those books and other publications on
which the copyright is expired (is expired the correct term?) but
everything published since sometime in the 1970s could not be
"legally" scanned.
Gene, that is not correct. It is my understanding the Congress granted
protection retroactivily to anything that *might* have been in the last
weeks of protection as of 1977... Which translates to 1921. Given that
less than 4% of all works requested a second 28 year term what that means is
~96% of everything copyrighted in the period between 1921 and 1979 *was* in
(or about to be in) the public domain as of 1977 this retroactive change of
status removed **all of that stuff** from the public and returned it to...
Who knows? But you have to find out who before you make that .pdf. Can
you say "Orphaned Works"? Well, just another fine example of our congress
at work! So FWIW, if you tick off the years since that steaming heap of
"logic" became law, I believe the cutoff date is now up to ~1930-32.

Dave Nelson
P.S. In their "wisdom" congress has also granted this missive copyright
protection for my lifetime plus 70 years. Ain't it great they got all the
real problems solved so they had time to grant automatic protection to this
post?


Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Oops! Well, I have goofed in the past then. I guess I understood the new law incorrectly. OK, back to work everyone.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

Gene Green wrote:
Ray,
The PDF idea is a good one for those books and other publications on
which the copyright is expired (is expired the correct term?) but
everything published since sometime in the 1970s could not be
"legally" scanned.
Gene, that is not correct. It is my understanding the Congress granted
protection retroactivily to anything that *might* have been in the last
weeks of protection as of 1977... Which translates to 1921. Given that
less than 4% of all works requested a second 28 year term what that means is
~96% of everything copyrighted in the period between 1921 and 1979 *was* in
(or about to be in) the public domain as of 1977 this retroactive change of
status removed **all of that stuff** from the public and returned it to...
Who knows? But you have to find out who before you make that .pdf. Can
you say "Orphaned Works"? Well, just another fine example of our congress
at work! So FWIW, if you tick off the years since that steaming heap of
"logic" became law, I believe the cutoff date is now up to ~1930-32.

Dave Nelson
P.S. In their "wisdom" congress has also granted this missive copyright
protection for my lifetime plus 70 years. Ain't it great they got all the
real problems solved so they had time to grant automatic protection to this
post?


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
Gene, that is not correct. It is my understanding the Congress granted protection retroactivily to anything that *might* have been in the last weeks of protection as of 1977... Which translates to 1921. Given that less than 4% of all works requested a second 28 year term what that means is ~96% of everything copyrighted in the period between 1921 and 1979 *was* in (or about to be in) the public domain as of 1977 . . . But you have to find out who before you make that .pdf.
Good summary, Dave. AFAIK this is the entire story. And you CAN find out about second copyright terms via the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress, though there is a research fee (normally to find out about one or two works will be the minimal fee, the current amount of which I don't know). But anything prior to 1922 is SURELY in the public domain, so that's the only truly safe date.
Remember also that existence of copyright does NOT mean there is no way to copy or scan the material; only that permission has to be obtained. Many copyright owners would consent to a use which is in a separate medium, because virtually all copyrighted material has no remaining commercial viability. A "one-time" use can often be obtained. But you DO need to ask, and receive a "yes."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


water.kresse@...
 

You talk about the books being copyrighted.  What about photographs used in those books that only had permission for that specific publication and had volume limits set on them.  It is not unusual to have permission for a maximum of 5,000 or 10,000 copies.  Or, is the need to have permission to use photos a "new thing"?



What happens if the photo rights belong to a different entity?



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" < thompson @ signaturepress .com>
To: STMFC @ yahoogroups .com
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 6:56:26 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [ STMFC ] Re:Modelers research library

Dave Nelson wrote:
Gene, that is not correct.  It is my understanding  the Congress  
granted protection retroactivily to anything that *might* have been  
in the last weeks of protection as of  1977... Which translates to  
1921.   Given that less than 4% of all works requested a second 28  
year term what that means is ~96% of everything copyrighted in the  
period between 1921 and 1979 *was* in (or about to be in) the public  
domain as of 1977 . . . But you have to find out who before you make  
that . pdf .
       Good summary, Dave. AFAIK this is the entire story. And you CAN  
find out about second copyright terms via the Copyright Office of the  
Library of Congress, though there is a research fee (normally to find  
out about one or two works will be the minimal fee, the current amount  
of which I don't know). But anything prior to 1922 is SURELY in the  
public domain, so that's the only truly safe date.
        Remember also that existence of copyright does NOT mean there  
is no way to copy or scan the material; only that permission has to be  
obtained. Many copyright owners would consent to a use which is in a  
separate medium, because virtually all copyrighted material has no  
remaining commercial viability. A "one-time" use can often be  
obtained. But you DO need to ask, and receive a "yes."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www . signaturepress .com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson @ signaturepress .com
Publishers of books on railroad history



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Kresset wrote:
You talk about the books being copyrighted. What about photographs used in those books that only had permission for that specific publication and had volume limits set on them. It is not unusual to have permission for a maximum of 5,000 or 10,000 copies. Or, is the need to have permission to use photos a "new thing"?
You are right that photos are separate rights. The publisher had permission to use them in the specified publication, not for general use. I have not encountered limits based on printing quantity in our business, but we generally don't print quantities like 10,000.

What happens if the photo rights belong to a different entity?
They almost always do.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


water.kresse@...
 

I have received NOT FOR PROFIT ORG, ONE TIME USE ONLY "permission to use" for photos for use in a single C&O History Magazine issue . . . usually at a no fee or very nomimal fee rate, . . . . but in a higher volume situation, they are wanting up to $300 per image to use them.  It is the bigger collections, like Corbis (already $100 not-for-profit single use [of a C&O Rwy photo used in an advertisement] for less than 5,000 copies), with Micro Soft's backing, that might make your life interesting if re-used without permission.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 2:57:35 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re:Modelers research library

Al Kresset wrote:
You talk about the books being copyrighted.  What about photographs  
used in those books that only had permission for that specific  
publication and had volume limits set on them.  It is not unusual to  
have permission for a maximum of 5,000 or 10,000 copies.  Or, is the  
need to have permission to use photos a "new thing"?
            You are right that photos are separate rights. The  
publisher had permission to use them in the specified publication, not  
for general use. I have not encountered limits based on printing  
quantity in our business, but we generally don't print quantities like  
10,000.

What happens if the photo rights belong to a different entity?
           They almost always do.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...>
 

I looked into using some images from the St. Lawrence County Historical Society for a book and they wanted $200 per image. If I gave them 500 books to sell themselves they were going to charge me $150 per. Needless to say I did not proceed. And this group complains that noone knows the history of the area or uses their resources.

Alan

--
Alan Palmer
Ottawa, Ontario
rrgeekdev@...

Sent from my TelusMobility wireless device.

-----Original Message-----
From: water.kresse@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 7/11/2009 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re:Modelers research library



I have received NOT FOR PROFIT ORG, ONE TIME USE ONLY "permission to use" for photos for use in a single C&O History Magazine issue . . . usually at a no fee or very nomimal fee rate, . . . . but in a higher volume situation, they are wanting up to $300 per image to use them.  It is the bigger collections, like Corbis (already $100 not-for-profit single use [of a C&O Rwy photo used in an advertisement] for less than 5,000 copies), with Micro Soft's backing, that might make your life interesting if re-used without permission.



Al Kresse


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 2:57:35 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re:Modelers research library

Al Kresset wrote:
You talk about the books being copyrighted.  What about photographs  
used in those books that only had permission for that specific  
publication and had volume limits set on them.  It is not unusual to  
have permission for a maximum of 5,000 or 10,000 copies.  Or, is the  
need to have permission to use photos a "new thing"?
            You are right that photos are separate rights. The  
publisher had permission to use them in the specified publication, not  
for general use. I have not encountered limits based on printing  
quantity in our business, but we generally don't print quantities like  
10,000.

What happens if the photo rights belong to a different entity?
           They almost always do.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Alan Palmer wrote:
I looked into using some images from the St. Lawrence County Historical Society for a book and they wanted $200 per image. If I gave them 500 books to sell themselves they were going to charge me $150 per. Needless to say I did not proceed. And this group complains that noone knows the history of the area or uses their resources.
That's a new high price for me, Alan. I was upset when the San Francisco Chronicle wanted $125 each for photos from their morgue, long-ago news photos. We used the absolute MINIMUM we needed, I can tell you.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

One name says it all--Disney.

And those interested in publishing historical photos and other works have been caught up in the maelstrom created by bad legislation.

Canadian photo copyright has 1 January, 1948 as the defining date--for now.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

Gene Green wrote:
Ray,
The PDF idea is a good one for those books and other publications on
which the copyright is expired (is expired the correct term?) but
everything published since sometime in the 1970s could not be
"legally" scanned.
Gene, that is not correct. It is my understanding the Congress granted
protection retroactivily to anything that *might* have been in the last
weeks of protection as of 1977... Which translates to 1921. Given that
less than 4% of all works requested a second 28 year term what that means is
~96% of everything copyrighted in the period between 1921 and 1979 *was* in
(or about to be in) the public domain as of 1977 this retroactive change of
status removed **all of that stuff** from the public and returned it to...
Who knows? But you have to find out who before you make that .pdf. Can
you say "Orphaned Works"? Well, just another fine example of our congress
at work! So FWIW, if you tick off the years since that steaming heap of
"logic" became law, I believe the cutoff date is now up to ~1930-32.

Dave Nelson
P.S. In their "wisdom" congress has also granted this missive copyright
protection for my lifetime plus 70 years. Ain't it great they got all the
real problems solved so they had time to grant automatic protection to this
post?


Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...>
 

Anything I have dealt with, if we offered to kick over 20 or 25 copies of th publication, the fee would be waved. Without the SLHS photos we could proceed on the book so it was cancelled. The publisher told me several explitives for the fee per photo.

Alan

--
Alan Palmer
Ottawa, Ontario
rrgeekdev@...

Sent from my TelusMobility wireless device.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 7/11/2009 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re:Modelers research library

Alan Palmer wrote:
I looked into using some images from the St. Lawrence County
Historical Society for a book and they wanted $200 per image. If I
gave them 500 books to sell themselves they were going to charge me
$150 per. Needless to say I did not proceed. And this group
complains that noone knows the history of the area or uses their
resources.
That's a new high price for me, Alan. I was upset when the San
Francisco Chronicle wanted $125 each for photos from their morgue,
long-ago news photos. We used the absolute MINIMUM we needed, I can
tell you.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Alan Palmer wrote:
Anything I have dealt with, if we offered to kick over 20 or 25 copies of th publication, the fee would be waved. Without the SLHS photos we could proceed on the book so it was cancelled. The publisher told me several explitives for the fee per photo.
It's true that some archives will accept copies instead of a fee, but major ones DO tend to have a fee, and it's rarely waived. However, they usually offer a reduced fee for non-profit publication (Signature Press is not intentionally a non-profit), and many also will negotiate a "volume discount," lower cost per photo as the total number of photos used gets larger.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

We are a cottage industry, and cannot afford commercial rates.

In the big time, Wide World, which is the archive of the Associated Press, wanted $600 for an 8x10 and one time use rights ... and this was 15 years ago.

They have lots of railroad photos, mostly news event related. What hay we rivet counters could make with that collection.

The commercial publishing world (Time magazine, etc.) can afford $600 a pop in stride, we cannot.

I shake my head sadly when other players in our little hisotical genre .... the local historical societies .... think everyone has deep pockets for their photos. Most of which they do not have the copyrights anyway.

There can be other strings attached. For a time, the Willard (Ohio) Historical Society would make you an 8x10 print for a fee, but then stipiulated that no publication rights would be granted at any price. They would not make the print if they thought you might publish. Seems these amateurs collected historical photographs from the townsfolk and some insisted theirs never be published. Now WHS has forgotten to whom they promised what and the restriction applies to all images. (I have recently seen some images published, so maybe this has changed.)









--- In STMFC@..., Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...> wrote:

I looked into using some images from the St. Lawrence County Historical Society for a book and they wanted $200 per image. If I gave them 500 books to sell themselves they were going to charge me $150 per. Needless to say I did not proceed. And this group complains that noone knows the history of the area or uses their resources.

Alan

--
Alan Palmer
Ottawa, Ontario
rrgeekdev@...

Sent from my TelusMobility wireless device.

-----Original Message-----
From: water.kresse@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 7/11/2009 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re:Modelers research library



I have received NOT FOR PROFIT ORG, ONE TIME USE ONLY "permission to use" for photos for use in a single C&O History Magazine issue . . . usually at a no fee or very nomimal fee rate, . . . . but in a higher volume situation, they are wanting up to $300 per image to use them.  It is the bigger collections, like Corbis (already $100 not-for-profit single use [of a C&O Rwy photo used in an advertisement] for less than 5,000 copies), with Micro Soft's backing, that might make your life interesting if re-used without permission.



Al Kresse


<snip>


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Mischke wrote:
I shake my head sadly when other players in our little hisotical genre .... the local historical societies .... think everyone has deep pockets for their photos. Most of which they do not have the copyrights anyway.
Jim, small libraries and archives have to eat too. A reasonable fee for photo reproduction and use is far from unreasonable. And if you look at it as your contribution to their upkeep, you can feel better about the gray areas of copyright.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history