Why so little discussion on coal car models?


al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

Folks,

I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little discussion is about modeling coal cars.

Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their lifetime, or other reason(s)?

It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars (hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . . . and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than USRA cars.

I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.

I'd be interested in knowing why.

Al Kresse


anthony wagner
 

Boy do I agree! I model the late 1940s and at that time there were still a jillion hoppers in service that dated from before the first world war, not to mention the 1920s. Not just on the Pennsy either. One candidate for a plastic kit would be the 1905 Standard Steel car. Even the NYC, among others, had thousands of them in the 1940s. I'm sure others more knowledgible than myself could come up with a list of other older hopper designs that existed in large numbers in those years, and would thus be candidates for a plastic kit, but I've noticed over the years that I have been in the hobby that maufacturers tend to copy each other's offerings rather that do something different. There was enough variety in rolling stock that existed in large numbers out there, that a little effort could result in an even more representitive variety of models than exists now. Tony Wagner

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, al.kresse <water.kresse@...> wrote:

From: al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 9:36 AM
























Folks,



I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little discussion is about modeling coal cars.



Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their lifetime, or other reason(s)?



It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars (hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . . . and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than USRA cars.



I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.



I'd be interested in knowing why.



Al Kresse

































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
 

Al,

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by both ECW and BLI.

regards,

Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: al.kresse
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?





Folks,

I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little discussion is about modeling coal cars.

Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their lifetime, or other reason(s)?

It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars (hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . . . and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than USRA cars.

I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.

I'd be interested in knowing why.

Al Kresse


Armand Premo
 

Andy,I must vehemently disagree.Pennsy and B&O hoppers were sent all over.I have several years of company coal reports which show heavy traffic by both the B&O and Pennsy hoppers among others .Coal was a common commodity contributing to a very high percentage of traffic on most railroads during the steam era.Some railroads actually sent their hoppers to mines.The N&W shipped a bulk of its coal to tidewater terminals ,but still sent some over land routes.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Miller
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?





Al,

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by both ECW and BLI.

regards,

Andy Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: al.kresse
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Folks,

I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little discussion is about modeling coal cars.

Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their lifetime, or other reason(s)?

It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars (hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . . . and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than USRA cars.

I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.

I'd be interested in knowing why.

Al Kresse








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gary laakso
 

The Great Northern delivered coal and its 1946 Annual Report shows:

Anthracite:
2 carloads originated and 754 received;
Bituminous:
1,892 carloads originated and 51,606 received [the Annual Report notes most were received from vessels in Duluth or Superior]
Lignite:
11,173 carloads originated and 1,745 received
Coke:
3,258 carloads originated and 52,531 received

I find the anthracite cars the most unusual. No idea from the Annual Report from what carriers they were received or where they were delivered to.

Gary Laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

----- Original Message -----
From: Armand Premo
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 7/3/2009 12:17:59 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?





Andy,I must vehemently disagree.Pennsy and B&O hoppers were sent all over.I have several years of company coal reports which show heavy traffic by both the B&O and Pennsy hoppers among others .Coal was a common commodity contributing to a very high percentage of traffic on most railroads during the steam era.Some railroads actually sent their hoppers to mines.The N&W shipped a bulk of its coal to tidewater terminals ,but still sent some over land routes.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Miller
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Al,

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by both ECW and BLI.

regards,

Andy Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: al.kresse
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Folks,

I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little discussion is about modeling coal cars.

Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their lifetime, or other reason(s)?

It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars (hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . . . and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than USRA cars.

I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.

I'd be interested in knowing why.

Al Kresse



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Andrew Miller writes:

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-)
Rising to the bait...As we know by now, the majority of N&W hoppers did indeed go off N&W tracks. This is because the majority of N&W coal went into the midwest and Great Lakes north and west of the N&W rather than through the more publicized Norfolk area...at least in 1949. Thus, those modeling the midwest definitely need N&W hoppers. It IS true that hopper cars owned by Appalachian RRs were at some point prohibited from carrying anything but air on their return from areas west of the Mississippi and we also know that evidence shows few eastern hoppers west of the Mississippi.

"But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers."

Well, if true, these prototype modelers are either not modeling the midwest and certain areas in the east or they aren't modeling the prototype in those areas very well. The same applies to Pennsy hoppers. The really excellent movies [ now video ] by Don Krofta of B&O RRing in the 50's shows lengthy trains of Pennsy hoppers on the B&O. Same for N&W hoppers.

BTW, there are numerous [ more than one ] photos of Mopac hoppers on UP tracks on and west of...uh...Sherman Hill including my beloved Laramie. I suppose one could argue that these cars are carrying some kind of special coal to the steel industry in Utah but on pg 47 of the Feb '53 Trains shows a different animal. This is a long train carrying iron ore north to Provo on a UP branch. The train has quite a few Mopac 3 bay hoppers in the consist. Curious. Not more so, however, than the string of at least 8 Mopac hoppers on Santa Fe tracks in California as shown in the Warbonnet.

Now...would you bet that you would never see a long string of N&W hoppers being pulled by a Santa Fe 2-10-4? Don't. Most know that Pennsy leased several Santa Fe 2-10-4's in the 50's. There are ample photos and videos of these great engines pulling solid trains of N&W hoppers on Pennsy tracks on the way north of Columbus, OH, to the Great Lakes. Ain't MRing fun?

Mike Brock


William Bryk <wmbryk@...>
 

While this is based on memories of nearly fifty years ago, I distinctly
recall seeing C&O and B&O hoppers running daily in Delaware & Hudson freight
trains through Waterford, New York between 1959 and 1963.

Regards,
William Bryk

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Mike Brock <brockm@...> wrote:



Andrew Miller writes:

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for
the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes
there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for
months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-)
Rising to the bait...As we know by now, the majority of N&W hoppers did
indeed go off N&W tracks. This is because the majority of N&W coal went
into
the midwest and Great Lakes north and west of the N&W rather than through
the more publicized Norfolk area...at least in 1949. Thus, those modeling
the midwest definitely need N&W hoppers. It IS true that hopper cars owned
by Appalachian RRs were at some point prohibited from carrying anything but

air on their return from areas west of the Mississippi and we also know
that
evidence shows few eastern hoppers west of the Mississippi.

"But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W
hoppers, are N&W modelers."

Well, if true, these prototype modelers are either not modeling the midwest

and certain areas in the east or they aren't modeling the prototype in
those
areas very well. The same applies to Pennsy hoppers. The really excellent
movies [ now video ] by Don Krofta of B&O RRing in the 50's shows lengthy
trains of Pennsy hoppers on the B&O. Same for N&W hoppers.

BTW, there are numerous [ more than one ] photos of Mopac hoppers on UP
tracks on and west of...uh...Sherman Hill including my beloved Laramie. I
suppose one could argue that these cars are carrying some kind of special
coal to the steel industry in Utah but on pg 47 of the Feb '53 Trains shows

a different animal. This is a long train carrying iron ore north to Provo
on
a UP branch. The train has quite a few Mopac 3 bay hoppers in the consist.
Curious. Not more so, however, than the string of at least 8 Mopac hoppers
on Santa Fe tracks in California as shown in the Warbonnet.

Now...would you bet that you would never see a long string of N&W hoppers
being pulled by a Santa Fe 2-10-4? Don't. Most know that Pennsy leased
several Santa Fe 2-10-4's in the 50's. There are ample photos and videos of

these great engines pulling solid trains of N&W hoppers on Pennsy tracks on

the way north of Columbus, OH, to the Great Lakes. Ain't MRing fun?

Mike Brock



devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Andrew Miller" <aslmmiller@...> wrote:

Al,

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by both ECW and BLI.

regards,

Andy Miller
Andy,

The exceptions are not insignificant. Referencing the Delano photo in my Dirty reefer post, I count at least 77 cars loaded with coal of some form. The sides are visible for about 80% of these cars. The vast majority are Milwaukee Road composite Gons. The home road (expected), but I also see the following hoppers:

Virginian - 3
N&W - 3-5
C&O - 1
Southern - 1

Note that I only see ONE Milwaukee road hopper. So technically the foreign hoppers outnumbered this home road's hoppers by eight to one!

Foreign coal loads are running around 10%.

I didn't realize the Milwaukee road had so few hoppers compared to gondolas.

So about 10% foreign road coal loads in this location, on one day in May 1943. The foreign road HOPPER percentage is over 89%!

Not sure which yard this is in Bensenville, but almost EVERY open top car is loaded, only a few empties - I do not know what the dominant direction of coal traffic would be at this location.

Obviously modelers need to be careful selecting cars for coal loads during this era.

The previous comment about large quantities of model cars is spot on - building a large hopper fleet in resin could be a bridge too far. More styrene cars would be greatly appreciated if they would be of different classes.

Dave Evans


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Miller wrote:
One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions.
I knew the instant I read this that the coal-road modelers would be screaming. But statistically, Andy is precisely correct. The great majority of coal hoppers traveled on their home roads. YES OF COURSE there were exceptions, as Andy says--plenty of exceptions. But don't let the exceptions blind you to the underlying pattern.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


SUVCWORR@...
 

While I model the Pennsy, it is impossible to do so without significant numbers of B&O, N&W, C&O, C&I, RDG, LV, D&H, DL&W and even VGN hoppers.? All of which are missing from the scene -- at least class specific accurate models.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: anthony wagner <anycw1@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:06 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?










Boy do I agree! I model the late 1940s and at that time there were still a
jillion hoppers in service that dated from before the first world war, not to
mention the 1920s. Not just on the Pennsy either. One candidate for a plastic
kit would be the 1905 Standard Steel car. Even the NYC, among others, had
thousands of them in the 1940s. I'm sure others more knowledgible than myself
could come up with a list of other older hopper designs that existed in large
numbers in those years, and would thus be candidates for a plastic kit, but I've
noticed over the years that I have been in the hobby that maufacturers tend to
copy each other's offerings rather that do something different. There was enough
variety in rolling stock that existed in large numbers out there, that a little
effort could result in an even more representitive variety of models than exists
now. Tony Wagner

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, al.kresse <water.kresse@...> wrote:

From: al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 9:36 AM
























Folks,



I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little discussion
is about modeling coal cars.



Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern
coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced
to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their
lifetime, or other reason(s)?



It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars
(hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently.
You can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s
. . . and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded
gons rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears
to spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2
Atlas and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other
than USRA cars.



I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.



I'd be interested in knowing why.



Al Kresse





































------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


SUVCWORR@...
 

Andy,?

I am compelled to take a different position.? While the bulk of hoppers were captive, photographic evidence abounds supporting foreign road hoppers on major coal hauling roads.? An extreme example may be the photos of Tennessee Central hoppers in the PRR yard at Renovo.? Not only are they 400+ miles from home rails but there is no direct connection.? There are numerous examples of NYC, B&O, N&W, RDG, LV, D&LW, D&H cars on the PRR and the captive roads connecting to the PRR, e.g. C&I, BWMX etc.? While the PRR did provide cars to the anthracite mines in eastern Pennsylvania most of that "hard" coal was loaded into the "Anthracite Road" cars and traveled anywhere hard coal was used for home heating.? And coal was not the only commodity carried in open hoppers -- gravel and stone are two examples of other cargos.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:09 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?










Al,

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the
most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there
were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a
N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype
modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested
in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three
most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and
the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by
both ECW and BLI.

regards,

Andy Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: al.kresse
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?





Folks,

I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little
discussion is about modeling coal cars.

Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern
coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced
to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their
lifetime, or other reason(s)?

It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars
(hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You
can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . .
. and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons
rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to
spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas
and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than
USRA cars.

I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.

I'd be interested in knowing why.

Al Kresse









------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


mike turner <yardcoolieyahoo@...>
 

My recollections of Southern Railway trains on the Atlanta-Washington
mainline do not agree, at least not toward the end of the period covered
by this list. I remember seeing many B&O, PRR, CRR, C&O, Erie, NYC and
occasionally Virginian hoppers and gondolas in trains and at rr
customers in SC.

Mike Turner
Simpsonville, SC 29681

Andrew Miller wrote:

Al,

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by both ECW and BLI.

regards,

Andy Miller


water.kresse@...
 

Actually, after WWI, typically 60 percent of C&O and N&Ws coal went WEST . . . . not to Tidewater.



Not unusual to see iron ore coming back EAST-erly in coal cars from the Great Lakes with their own road's power.  Virginian coals cars coming back to Gilbert, WV, from Toledo, OH, via C&O power would be empty and moving fast to avoid per diem charges.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
To: STMFC@..., STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2009 12:42:18 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?

  The Great Northern delivered coal and its 1946 Annual Report shows:

Anthracite:
2 carloads originated and 754 received;
Bituminous:
1,892 carloads originated and 51,606 received [the Annual Report notes most were received from vessels in Duluth or Superior]
Lignite:
11,173 carloads originated and 1,745 received
Coke:
3,258 carloads originated and 52,531 received

I find the anthracite cars the most unusual.  No idea from the Annual Report from what carriers they were received or where they were delivered to.

Gary Laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


----- Original Message -----
From: Armand Premo
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 7/3/2009 12:17:59 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?





Andy,I must vehemently disagree.Pennsy and B&O hoppers were sent all over.I have several years of company coal reports which show heavy traffic by both the B&O and Pennsy hoppers among others .Coal was a common commodity contributing to a very high percentage of traffic on most railroads during the steam era.Some railroads actually sent their hoppers to mines.The N&W shipped a bulk of its coal to tidewater terminals ,but still sent some over land routes.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Miller
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Al,

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by both ECW and BLI.

regards,

Andy Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: al.kresse
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?

Folks,

I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little discussion is about modeling coal cars.

Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their lifetime, or other reason(s)?

It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars (hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . . . and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than USRA cars.

I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.

I'd be interested in knowing why.

Al Kresse



----------------------------------------------------------

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Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

And until 1950, BR&P and later B&O hopper cars appeared in Eastern Ontario carrying loco coal for the GTR and later CN. They were ferried across Lake Ontario from near Rochester, NY to Cobourg, ON.

Much coal for domestic and industrial use in southern Ontario originated from US mines. Just about every eastern US road's hopper cars appear hauling it into Canada into the 1950's. Slightly out-of-era--I took a slide of a Conrail hopper car at a coal yard in Uxbridge, Ontario in 1983.

Modelling this area, I have a few anthracite roads' hoppers--more to come.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., William Bryk <wmbryk@...> wrote:

While this is based on memories of nearly fifty years ago, I distinctly
recall seeing C&O and B&O hoppers running daily in Delaware & Hudson freight
trains through Waterford, New York between 1959 and 1963.

Regards,
William Bryk

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Mike Brock <brockm@...> wrote:



Andrew Miller writes:

One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for
the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes
there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for
months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-)
Rising to the bait...As we know by now, the majority of N&W hoppers did
indeed go off N&W tracks. This is because the majority of N&W coal went
into
the midwest and Great Lakes north and west of the N&W rather than through
the more publicized Norfolk area...at least in 1949. Thus, those modeling
the midwest definitely need N&W hoppers. It IS true that hopper cars owned
by Appalachian RRs were at some point prohibited from carrying anything but

air on their return from areas west of the Mississippi and we also know
that
evidence shows few eastern hoppers west of the Mississippi.

"But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W
hoppers, are N&W modelers."

Well, if true, these prototype modelers are either not modeling the midwest

and certain areas in the east or they aren't modeling the prototype in
those
areas very well. The same applies to Pennsy hoppers. The really excellent
movies [ now video ] by Don Krofta of B&O RRing in the 50's shows lengthy
trains of Pennsy hoppers on the B&O. Same for N&W hoppers.

BTW, there are numerous [ more than one ] photos of Mopac hoppers on UP
tracks on and west of...uh...Sherman Hill including my beloved Laramie. I
suppose one could argue that these cars are carrying some kind of special
coal to the steel industry in Utah but on pg 47 of the Feb '53 Trains shows

a different animal. This is a long train carrying iron ore north to Provo
on
a UP branch. The train has quite a few Mopac 3 bay hoppers in the consist.
Curious. Not more so, however, than the string of at least 8 Mopac hoppers
on Santa Fe tracks in California as shown in the Warbonnet.

Now...would you bet that you would never see a long string of N&W hoppers
being pulled by a Santa Fe 2-10-4? Don't. Most know that Pennsy leased
several Santa Fe 2-10-4's in the 50's. There are ample photos and videos of

these great engines pulling solid trains of N&W hoppers on Pennsy tracks on

the way north of Columbus, OH, to the Great Lakes. Ain't MRing fun?

Mike Brock



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

The following hoppers were on the M&StL both east and west of the Mississippi.
Clark Propst

CB&Q 188672 188000-18999 HM gravel "4-7-50" 894 Clarkson
GN 73070 73000-73199 HM empty hoppe "5-21-48" 96 Montgomery
GN 73361 73200-73699 HM coal "2-3-50" 75 Belview
IC 76040 75000-78959 HM co. coal "2-14-48" 97 Waseca
IC 93646 92000-93749 HM sand "7-28-50" 894 Lovilia
NP 70140 70050-70199 HM coal "1-22-50" 96 New Prague
NYC 818467 818000-81890 HM coal "1-22-50" 99 Mile post 63
NYC 849899 849500-84954 HM coal "8-31-49" 19 Waseca
NYC 863803 862000-86499 HM coal "5-28-48" 95 Madison
WAB 36320 36000-36424 HM coal "12-9-50" 197 Dallas Cente
WAB 37175 37000-37399 HM coal "7-28-49" - Cramers
CB&Q 190672 190000-191749 HM sand 10/2/1959 95 Dillon
CB&Q 192362 192000-193199 HM sand 9/4/1959 95 Searsboro
CB&Q 192362 192000-193199 HM sand 9/6/1959 95 Grinnell
CIM 6319 6000-6349 HM coal 8/13/1959 1 London Mills
CIM 6323 6000-6349 HM coal 8/5/1959 1 Middle Grove
CIM 6326 6000-6349 HM coal 8/5/1959 1 Abingdon
CIM 6329 6000-6349 HM coal 8/22/1959 coal run Hanna
CIM 6528 6000-6349 HM coal 7/24/1959 coal run Maxwell
DH 4890 4701-6100 HM empty 11/7/1959 2 Little York
IC 86216 86000-86499 HM coal 12/13/1958 19 Winfield
IC 93829 93750-93999 HM 12/13/1958 19 Winfield
L&N 35277 34000-35999 HM coal 11/17/1959 33 Albert Lea
LM 12213 1000-1299 HM empty 10/6/1959 894 Albia
NP 70033 70000-70048 HM hopper ore 9/4/1958 20 Manly
NYC 844607 840000-841999 HM coal 2/19/1958 19 Excelsior
NYC 861375 861000-861999 HM empty 4/29/1959 2 Rogers
NYC 870917 870000-870999 HM empty 11/4/1959 33 Albert Lea
NYC 876067 876000-876999 HM iron ore 7/18/1959 2 Hedrick
RI 89456 89400-89599 HM coal 12/19/1958 90 Maxwell
WAB 37170 37000-37799 HM coal 3/4/1959 95 Grinnell
WAB 37195 37000-37799 HM coal 1/14/1959 95 Searsboro
WAB 37263 37000-37799 HM sand 8/14/1959 95 Grinnell
WAB 37488 37000-37799 HM iron ore 7/10/1959 20 Pickering
WAB 37552 37000-37799 HM sand 9/28/1959 95 Searsboro
WAB 37672 37000-37799 HM coal 6/19/1959 95 Grinnell
WAB 37786 37000-37799 HM sand 9/30/1959 95 Dillon


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Clark Propst wrote:
The following hoppers were on the M&StL both east and west of the Mississippi.
Clark, what are the dates in your list? The date the car was on line? or at that station?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

I didn't realize the Milwaukee road had so few hoppers
compared to gondolas.
Dave, I think that the majority of Milwaukee Road hoppers at that
time were CTSE cars. I vaguely recall an article in the MRHS magazine
about coal operations on the CTSE which were not staged out of
Bensenville, but another yard. So as always, which cars and mix of
cars that you see depends on local factors, plus the time period.

This whole thread is predicated on a dearth of discussion about
coal cars??? What kind of a red herring is THAT? It seems to me
we've been talking about coal cars more or less continuously for
the last 12 years!!

Tim O'Connor


Mark
 

I agree, Rich. L&N hoppers use to go westbound to Lake Erie over the B&O. Wife told me to buy a video and wow EM-1 pulling out of Wheeling with a PRR coal car right behind her and shots of trains moving west through Columbus (FT set) with L&N coal cars.

That's why I have to have a small assortment of off road coal cars, let alone everything else.

Mark Morgan

--- On Fri, 7/3/09, SUVCWORR@... <SUVCWORR@...> wrote:

From: SUVCWORR@... <SUVCWORR@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 2:36 PM



















Andy,?



I am compelled to take a different position.? While the bulk of hoppers were captive, photographic evidence abounds supporting foreign road hoppers on major coal hauling roads.? An extreme example may be the photos of Tennessee Central hoppers in the PRR yard at Renovo.? Not only are they 400+ miles from home rails but there is no direct connection.? There are numerous examples of NYC, B&O, N&W, RDG, LV, D&LW, D&H cars on the PRR and the captive roads connecting to the PRR, e.g. C&I, BWMX etc.? While the PRR did provide cars to the anthracite mines in eastern Pennsylvania most of that "hard" coal was loaded into the "Anthracite Road" cars and traveled anywhere hard coal was used for home heating.? And coal was not the only commodity carried in open hoppers -- gravel and stone are two examples of other cargos.



Rich Orr



-----Original Message-----

From: Andrew Miller <aslmmiller@rcn. com>

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com

Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 10:09 am

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?



Al,



One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the

most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there

were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a

N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype

modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested

in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three

most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and

the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by

both ECW and BLI.



regards,



Andy Miller

----- Original Message -----

From: al.kresse

To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com

Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:36 AM

Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?



Folks,



I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little

discussion is about modeling coal cars.



Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern

coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced

to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their

lifetime, or other reason(s)?



It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars

(hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You

can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . .

. and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons

rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to

spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas

and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than

USRA cars.



I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.



I'd be interested in knowing why.



Al Kresse







------------ --------- --------- ------



Yahoo! Groups Links



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Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 3, 2009, at 2:11 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

This whole thread is predicated on a dearth of discussion about
coal cars??? What kind of a red herring is THAT? It seems to me
we've been talking about coal cars more or less continuously for
the last 12 years!!





Yes, and those of us who don't live in coal country are getting
mighty tired of it. I understand the interest (obsession?) with
hoppers on the part of those who model eastern and some midwestern
lines, and I'm happy to go on pushing the delete button when we have
these endless discussions of where N&W hoppers went and why. But
really, guys, coal hopper cars were (as I believe I've said here
before) less common in many parts of the far west than helium tank
cars or bulk wine tank cars. Those who doubt it can see my Wine Tank
Car clinic at Naperville in October, which includes a photo on the SP
at Fresno showing ±40 wine tank cars - and not a coal hopper in
sight. The fuels that powered almost everything west of the Front
Range, including most steam locomotives, were natural gas and oil
(or, as they say in Texas, "awl.") Much of that was moved in tank
cars, of which we don't have nearly enough variety in prototypical
tank car models, though things are a bit better now than they were
five years ago.

Richard Hendrickson


Alan Palmer <rrgeekdev@...>
 

The Rutland commonly had B&O coal hoppers running on their system,
especially ones delivered to the OLC division in Northern NY State.

CP received a lot of coal in B&O hoppers as well from the
Ogdensburg/Prescott ferry connection.

Alan


On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Armand Premo<armprem2@...> wrote:
   Andy,I must vehemently disagree.Pennsy and B&O hoppers were sent all over.I have several years of company coal reports which show heavy traffic by both the B&O and Pennsy hoppers among others .Coal was a common commodity contributing to a very high percentage of traffic on most railroads during the steam era.Some railroads actually sent their hoppers to mines.The N&W shipped a bulk of its coal to tidewater terminals ,but still sent some over land routes.Armand Premo
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Andrew Miller
 To: STMFC@...
 Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:09 AM
 Subject: Re: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?





 Al,

 One of the reasons may be that coal cars (hoppers and some gons) were for the most part captive cars. That is, they remained on the home road. Yes there were exceptions, many exceptions. This list waxed eloquent for months about a N&W hopper on Sherman hill ;-) But for the most part the only prototype modelers interested in N&W hoppers, are N&W modelers. The only people interested in PRR hoppers are PRR modelers, and so on. In that vein, note that the three most common PRR hoppers are readily available: The H21 and GLa from Bowser, and the GLCA from Westerfiled and newly released from F&C. The N&W H2 was made by both ECW and BLI.

 regards,

 Andy Miller
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: al.kresse
 To: STMFC@...
 Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:36 AM
 Subject: [STMFC] Why so little discussion on coal car models?

 Folks,

 I've been on this list, and the old list, and I wonder why so little discussion is about modeling coal cars.

 Is it because so few members are interested in railroads operating in eastern coal country, or modelers of coal roads need so many coal cars they are forced to go with cheaper RTR cars to just fill up an operating consist in their lifetime, or other reason(s)?

 It would be interesting to know why so few 50, 70, 100 and 120-ton coal cars (hops and gons) of the steam era are not discussed in more detail currently. You can find many modeling magazine articles from the mid-1970 through the 1980s . . . and then few except for in MM later on. Sunshine sold out their high-sded gons rather quickly, and Westerfield has their N&W GK gons. But then it appears to spotty in being able to find accurate offerings . . . except for post-WW2 Atlas and Athearn RTRs . . . especially in the pre-WW2 era models . . . other than USRA cars.

 I guess we could throw in coke cars with these also.

 I'd be interested in knowing why.

 Al Kresse

 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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