Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Mr Brock, making a valiant attempt to define some areas of the US, wrote:

'[I]f we are going to describe sections of the country, we have to step back a bit and do all the
sections. IOW, it's not just the west...say, beginning at Denver...and the east. That doesn't allow
any distinction between New York and Omaha or St. Louis and Charleston and, I assure you there is a
great distinction. So...let's try this. New England: To the north and east of New York. The East:
New York, PA, West Va, VA, New Jersey, Delaware [ wherever that is ], DC and Maryland. The South:
South of VA including Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Jawga, the Carolinas but
not Florida. The Florida: Florida. A difficult problem because half of the population south of
Orlando belongs in the East while half of the population north of Orlando belongs in the South. Half
of the rest has a uniquely Miami feel...whatever that is. The Midwest: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois,
Michigan, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin and the Dakotas.
Well...where else could we put the Dakotas? No offense...but are they still there? The Southwest:
Texas and New Mexico [ although many Texicans believe they are simply their own country ]. The
Mountain West: Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Idaho, and Nevada. The Far West: Arizona, Cal, OR,
and Wash.

"I don't know what to do with Kentucky. "


And I find now, a really good reason I have kept this book I bought ages ago, entitled "Atlas of
Traffic Maps" published by the LaSalle Extension University in 1924, definitely in the steam freight
cars era.

The first map I find is the "Express Map of the Unitied States," subtitled, "Interstate Commerce
Commission, Sustem of Blocks and Zones for the Formulation of Express Rates," which I will not try
to relate in print (nor will I scan this, as it would destroy the book), except to say that Zone I
is nominally New England, NY, PA, OH, IN, the lower third of MI, and a shape resembling IL. Zone II
is everything south of that group, split along the Mississippi, more or less. Zone III is the
flatland states plus the UP of MI, and the upper 2/3 of lower MI. The western boundary between Zone
III and Zone IV is a line running straight north from El Paso. Zone IV is the mountains. The
boundary between IV and V is a line running northward from the Gulf of Calfornia, and then
zigzagging along the eastern side of the San Joaquin Valley. About the southern border of Oregon,
the line goes east to the eastern side of Oregon and Washington. The entire map is based on a
rectangular subdivision of the country, including in the east, where the cartisian division of the
land is not common.

Next are a few interesting maps, the "Inland Waterways Map of the United States," followed by the
"Steamship Routes of the World."

But then we come to what I got this book out for, the Railway Association, Bureau, and Committee
maps, which includes the "Railroad Freight Classification Territory" map. That's followed by
several other things:

General Tariff Publishing Association Territories, subdivided into the "Major Railroad Freight
Association Territories," and the "Minor, Local and Specific Freight Association Territories."

"Individual Tariff Publishing Association Territories," subdivided into the "Canadian, New England
and Trunk Line Territories," the "Central Freights Association Territory," the "Southern Freight
Association Territory," the "Western Trunk Line Committee Territory," and the (deep breath) "North
Pacific Coast, And Pacific Freight Tariff Bureaus, and Transcontinental Freight Bureau Territories."

Now, there are some "intrastate or minor territories" which we will not get into . . l

But we do want to establish the "Interstate or Major Territories," I think. So. The major
classification territories are:
Canadian
Official
Western
Mexican
Southern.

The Canadian and Mexican territories are simply too obvious to bother with, so the division of the
US is still to be established. It is thus:

Official Territory: all of New England, NY, PA, OH, IN, WVA, MD, DE, the lower peninsula of MI, and
the northern part of VA. VA is divided along a undoubtedly significant (but obscure to me) line
peeling off the southern boundary of WVA, grazing the southern side of Richmond, and ending near or
at Newport News. And also, IN is divided along a similar line, leaving the Mississippi at the rail
line between Galesburg and Streator (RI?)which is in the Official Territory, and heading to the Lake
Michigan coast just south of Chicago.

Southern Territory, everything south of the Official Territory, and east of the Mississippi River.

Western Territory, everything else.

There are several "STATE" territories, in VA, GA, AL, MS, IA, NB, IL.

[ I observe here that contrary to Dr Hendrickson's belief, the West appears to begin at the
Mississippi River.]


But that's not all. The next map is the "Major Railroad Freight Association Territories." This is
considerably more complex. Let's begin with Canada, as it's straightforward: The Canadian Freight
Association is divided into the Eastern Lines and Western Lines, by a line running north from Port
Arthur on Lake Superior. Mexico is not addressed.

The previously described Official Territory here is called the Eastern Freight Tariff, which is
subdivided into the New England Freight Association, western boundary the NYS line, more or less;
the Trunk Line Association, western boundary south from Buffalo, through Pittsburgh, just south of
Wheeling, and then along the Ohio River; and the Central Freight Association, the remainder of the
Official Territory.

The Southern Territory becomes the Southern Freight Association, with Richmond Freight Tariff
Bureau, more or less southern VA, NC, and SC (roughly); the Atlanta Freight Bureau, whose western
edge is along the railroad line north from Mobile to Corinth, east of Jackson TN, and up to the Ohio
River. The Louisville Freight Tariff Bureau is the remainder of the Southern Territory

The Western Territory has four major divisions: The Western Trunk Line Committee western border is
along the western side of N and S Dakota, along the front range in CO, and then eastward along the
southern border of OK and MO; the Southwestern Freight Bureau covers TX, LA and Arkansas; the
Pacific Freight Tariff Bureau and the Pacific Coast Freight Bureau are split along a line on the
southern border of Oregon, except for a peninsula of the PFTB that extends northward to the Columbia
River just east of Portland OR. The eastern border of the PFCB is along the summit of the
Bitterroot Mountains. MN and WY are not specifically designated as a bureau but are encompassed (as
are both Pacific Bureaus) by the Transcontinental Freight Bureau.

Here is the point: The US was divided by the Railroads into Territories. These are not
insignificant geographic distinctions. The Steam Freight Cars were operated under this system, to
the best of my knowledge. Routing cars toward their owning road really meant getting them headed
toward the right Territory, and maybe better, toward the right Freight Bureau's territory.

And Mike, Kentucky is in the Southern Territory. Good?

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!







E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441)
Database version: 6.12760
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/


Stokes John
 

This is all well and good, but any Texan knows that The West begins at the border of Fort Worth and extends West to the Pacific Ocean. That would make the Western half of Texas, including Pecos and Lubbock and El Paso, the West, as well as New Mexico and some of the Western half of Oklahoma part of the West. The line of course, bends Westward along the Front Range up to Montana and Wyoming. All that is part of the Real West. Being a Texan myself, and gone to college in Lubbock, I know that part is not in the Great Plains, but sitss up on the Caprock, and get those awful dust storms and chill winds from the Great Plains and Canada, two foreign lands.

The questions is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include the CB&Q as a Western railroad. You are right, Richard, that for the most part it is what is often called one of the Granger Roads. But that part of the Q that included the C&S and went into West Texas, Colorado and into the Rockies ventures into Western territory. But what is the West anyhow? Is it purely geographical?, or in railroad terms defined by the type of products carried? or is it more topographical? Or is it a state of mind? Or does it really mattter in the discussion of STMFC?

All I know is that I live in the West for sure now, but a special part of the West called the Great Pacific Northwest. The rest is just "the other parts" of the US.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA

To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
From: schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 00:13:56 -0400
Subject: [STMFC] Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.


























Mr Brock, making a valiant attempt to define some areas of the US, wrote:



'[I]f we are going to describe sections of the country, we have to step back a bit and do all the
sections. IOW, it's not just the west...say, beginning at Denver...and the east. That doesn't allow

any distinction between New York and Omaha or St. Louis and Charleston and, I assure you there is a

great distinction. So...let's try this. New England: To the north and east of New York. The East:

New York, PA, West Va, VA, New Jersey, Delaware [ wherever that is ], DC and Maryland. The South:

South of VA including Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Jawga, the Carolinas but

not Florida. The Florida: Florida. A difficult problem because half of the population south of

Orlando belongs in the East while half of the population north of Orlando belongs in the South. Half

of the rest has a uniquely Miami feel...whatever that is. The Midwest: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois,

Michigan, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin and the Dakotas.

Well...where else could we put the Dakotas? No offense...but are they still there? The Southwest:

Texas and New Mexico [ although many Texicans believe they are simply their own country ]. The

Mountain West: Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Idaho, and Nevada. The Far West: Arizona, Cal, OR,

and Wash.



"I don't know what to do with Kentucky. "



And I find now, a really good reason I have kept this book I bought ages ago, entitled "Atlas of

Traffic Maps" published by the LaSalle Extension University in 1924, definitely in the steam freight

cars era.



The first map I find is the "Express Map of the Unitied States," subtitled, "Interstate Commerce

Commission, Sustem of Blocks and Zones for the Formulation of Express Rates," which I will not try

to relate in print (nor will I scan this, as it would destroy the book), except to say that Zone I

is nominally New England, NY, PA, OH, IN, the lower third of MI, and a shape resembling IL. Zone II

is everything south of that group, split along the Mississippi, more or less. Zone III is the

flatland states plus the UP of MI, and the upper 2/3 of lower MI. The western boundary between Zone

III and Zone IV is a line running straight north from El Paso. Zone IV is the mountains. The

boundary between IV and V is a line running northward from the Gulf of Calfornia, and then

zigzagging along the eastern side of the San Joaquin Valley. About the southern border of Oregon,

the line goes east to the eastern side of Oregon and Washington. The entire map is based on a

rectangular subdivision of the country, including in the east, where the cartisian division of the

land is not common.



Next are a few interesting maps, the "Inland Waterways Map of the United States," followed by the

"Steamship Routes of the World."



But then we come to what I got this book out for, the Railway Association, Bureau, and Committee

maps, which includes the "Railroad Freight Classification Territory" map. That's followed by

several other things:



General Tariff Publishing Association Territories, subdivided into the "Major Railroad Freight

Association Territories," and the "Minor, Local and Specific Freight Association Territories."



"Individual Tariff Publishing Association Territories," subdivided into the "Canadian, New England

and Trunk Line Territories," the "Central Freights Association Territory," the "Southern Freight

Association Territory," the "Western Trunk Line Committee Territory," and the (deep breath) "North

Pacific Coast, And Pacific Freight Tariff Bureaus, and Transcontinental Freight Bureau Territories."



Now, there are some "intrastate or minor territories" which we will not get into . . l



But we do want to establish the "Interstate or Major Territories," I think. So. The major

classification territories are:

Canadian

Official

Western

Mexican

Southern.



The Canadian and Mexican territories are simply too obvious to bother with, so the division of the

US is still to be established. It is thus:



Official Territory: all of New England, NY, PA, OH, IN, WVA, MD, DE, the lower peninsula of MI, and

the northern part of VA. VA is divided along a undoubtedly significant (but obscure to me) line

peeling off the southern boundary of WVA, grazing the southern side of Richmond, and ending near or

at Newport News. And also, IN is divided along a similar line, leaving the Mississippi at the rail

line between Galesburg and Streator (RI?)which is in the Official Territory, and heading to the Lake

Michigan coast just south of Chicago.



Southern Territory, everything south of the Official Territory, and east of the Mississippi River.



Western Territory, everything else.



There are several "STATE" territories, in VA, GA, AL, MS, IA, NB, IL.



[ I observe here that contrary to Dr Hendrickson's belief, the West appears to begin at the

Mississippi River.]



But that's not all. The next map is the "Major Railroad Freight Association Territories." This is

considerably more complex. Let's begin with Canada, as it's straightforward: The Canadian Freight

Association is divided into the Eastern Lines and Western Lines, by a line running north from Port

Arthur on Lake Superior. Mexico is not addressed.



The previously described Official Territory here is called the Eastern Freight Tariff, which is

subdivided into the New England Freight Association, western boundary the NYS line, more or less;

the Trunk Line Association, western boundary south from Buffalo, through Pittsburgh, just south of

Wheeling, and then along the Ohio River; and the Central Freight Association, the remainder of the

Official Territory.



The Southern Territory becomes the Southern Freight Association, with Richmond Freight Tariff

Bureau, more or less southern VA, NC, and SC (roughly); the Atlanta Freight Bureau, whose western

edge is along the railroad line north from Mobile to Corinth, east of Jackson TN, and up to the Ohio

River. The Louisville Freight Tariff Bureau is the remainder of the Southern Territory



The Western Territory has four major divisions: The Western Trunk Line Committee western border is

along the western side of N and S Dakota, along the front range in CO, and then eastward along the

southern border of OK and MO; the Southwestern Freight Bureau covers TX, LA and Arkansas; the

Pacific Freight Tariff Bureau and the Pacific Coast Freight Bureau are split along a line on the

southern border of Oregon, except for a peninsula of the PFTB that extends northward to the Columbia

River just east of Portland OR. The eastern border of the PFCB is along the summit of the

Bitterroot Mountains. MN and WY are not specifically designated as a bureau but are encompassed (as

are both Pacific Bureaus) by the Transcontinental Freight Bureau.



Here is the point: The US was divided by the Railroads into Territories. These are not

insignificant geographic distinctions. The Steam Freight Cars were operated under this system, to

the best of my knowledge. Routing cars toward their owning road really meant getting them headed

toward the right Territory, and maybe better, toward the right Freight Bureau's territory.



And Mike, Kentucky is in the Southern Territory. Good?



SGL

La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!



E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441)

Database version: 6.12760

http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/


al_brown03
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, John Stokes <ggstokes@...> wrote:


<snip>
The question is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include
the CB&Q as a Western railroad.
<snip, snap, snup>

What was that slogan on Burlington boxcars? "Everywhere East"? :-)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


roblmclear <rob.mclear2@...>
 

All

This is great stuff I join the group to learn about freight cars and for extra's I get a geography lesson on the U.S. Now if you really want to know where the West is, go to L.A. or S.F. and go about 4000 miles in a boat or a plane and you will find the real west.

Rob Mclear
Brisbane Australia.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, John Stokes <ggstokes@> wrote:


<snip>
The question is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include
the CB&Q as a Western railroad.
<snip, snap, snup>

What was that slogan on Burlington boxcars? "Everywhere East"? :-)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:


[ I observe here that contrary to Dr Hendrickson's belief, the West appears to begin at the
Mississippi River.]
I thought that according to New Yorker magazine, "the West" bagan at the Hudson :-)

Dennis


Dave Nelson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I thought that according to New Yorker magazine, "the West" bagan at
the Hudson :-)

Dennis
What else would one expect from New Yorkers?

FWIW, there really isn't a simple answer to EXACTLY where the west begins
but in general terms I think the best answer is somewhere whithin the
diagonal region along the front range, most of which was once populated by
Bison, and east of where the mountains begin: too dry for farming, too flat
to call the Rockies. Works from west Texas on the Rio Grande to west of
Edmonton. From the West (and north of the Red River) to the Missisippi are
the Great Plains. The Ozarks get in the way for a straight line boundary so
I personally have no issue with describing them as southern... as well as
anything south of the Ohio / Potomac.

Dave Nelson


Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Rob--

Thanks for putting things into perspective and giving me a good chuckle in the process. Someday, I'd love to travel (as would my daughter) to your "West".

All the best,

Steve Lucas,
Ingersoll, Ontario, Canada.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "roblmclear" <rob.mclear2@...> wrote:

All

This is great stuff I join the group to learn about freight cars and for extra's I get a geography lesson on the U.S. Now if you really want to know where the West is, go to L.A. or S.F. and go about 4000 miles in a boat or a plane and you will find the real west.

Rob Mclear
Brisbane Australia.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, John Stokes <ggstokes@> wrote:


<snip>
The question is, of course, whether it is legitimate to include
the CB&Q as a Western railroad.
<snip, snap, snup>

What was that slogan on Burlington boxcars? "Everywhere East"? :-)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

That would be the "100th Meridian", supposedly the dividing point between where farming was possible without irrigation and where it wasn't.

. . . At least that's what it said on a sign at a rest stop on I-80 in 1983.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Nelson

FWIW, there really isn't a simple answer to EXACTLY where the west begins
but in general terms I think the best answer is somewhere whithin the
diagonal region along the front range, most of which was once populated by
Bison, and east of where the mountains begin: too dry for farming, too flat
to call the Rockies.


Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...>
 

Railroads have very clear definitions of Western, Eastern, Southern territories in their freight tariffs. Ross McLeod Calgary 


__________________________________________________________________
Get the name you've always wanted @ymail.com or @rocketmail.com! Go to http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/jacko/


Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

1. The slogan "Everywhere West" first appeared on Q freight cars in 1937, whilst "Way of the Zephyrs" didn't appear until 1940
2. Rob's comment shows why Australia is referred to as New Zealand's West Island

(Given the current frenzy in LA, I can understand the desire of the rest of the "United" States to keep a certain large mountain range as a geographical dividing point :-) )

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "roblmclear" <rob.mclear2@bigpond.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:46 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.


All

This is great stuff I join the group to learn about freight cars and for extra's I get a geography lesson on the U.S. Now if you really want to know where the West is, go to L.A. or S.F. and go about 4000 miles in a boat or a plane and you will find the real west.

Rob Mclear
Brisbane Australia.


roblmclear <rob.mclear2@...>
 

I knew ther'd be a Kiwi out there somewhere, I can show you in the draft of the Australian constitution where it refers to the colonies of New south wales, queensland etc and the NORTH AND SOUTH ISLANDS OF NEW ZEALAND so we're not the west island you're just the missing state! Before I incur the wrath of the moderator back to freight cars.
Rob.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Rupert & Maureen" <gamlenz@...> wrote:

1. The slogan "Everywhere West" first appeared on Q freight cars in 1937, whilst "Way of the Zephyrs" didn't appear until 1940
2. Rob's comment shows why Australia is referred to as New Zealand's West Island

(Given the current frenzy in LA, I can understand the desire of the rest of the "United" States to keep a certain large mountain
range as a geographical dividing point :-) )

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "roblmclear" <rob.mclear2@...>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 11:46 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Railroad territories and geographical divisions of the US.


All

This is great stuff I join the group to learn about freight cars and for extra's I get a geography lesson on the U.S. Now if you
really want to know where the West is, go to L.A. or S.F. and go about 4000 miles in a boat or a plane and you will find the real
west.

Rob Mclear
Brisbane Australia.


Dave Nelson
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
That would be the "100th Meridian", supposedly the dividing point
between where farming was possible without irrigation and where it
wasn't.

. . . At least that's what it said on a sign at a rest stop on I-80
in 1983.

KL

True enough Kurt. I considered writing that but, it doesn't work so well
for Canada or Texas, and so I wrote it up as a diagonal region to
accommodate the fact that whereas the meridian does run exactly
north/south, the mountains -- which determines the rainfall -- don't.

Dave Nelson