"The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???


Charlie Vlk
 

Before the interest level in accurate freight cars spread and people started digging up and researching material on freight cars almost all of us were "The Great Unwashed".

In the late 1960's my level of general knowledge regarding freight cars was maybe a little above average but not alot. I was attempting to model the CB&Q in HO... good friend Pat Egan modified an LMB 01a 2-8-2 for me with the early Elesco system following 4978, and I had corrected a Trains, Inc. four window waycar to the 1950's appearance. I then looked at the gap between the coupler on the tank and the waycar and realized that I'd have to scratchbuild every piece of "signature" CB&Q freight equipment to fill it in. This was pre-Evergreen styrene, and Jack Work and others were just starting to describe how to use early RTV and resins to make tree stumps. Athearn had a rather fixed range of decoration for their box cars and reefers which were relieved by custom runs by Bev-Bel and painted and decaled assembled Roundhouse and Athearn cars by Kar-Line. I figured that, rather than frustrating myself with compromising or having to scratchbuild the cars I wanted, I'd get into N Scale "where nobody in their right mind would ever try to model prototypicaly"....

Well, Charlie, how did that work out for you??? For a while, freelancing was okay.... then the )$#))$@ industry started to bring out proto-specific things in N like E5s, brass CZs, and EMD diesels detailed for the CB&Q. Grrrrr! Then I got into the act and started doing it to myself as well (Budd Prewar cars, etc..) while working at Kato and for other manufacturers.

I would say there are alot more people out there that don't show up at RPM meets that are increasingly prototype-aware and don't just buy cars based on paint schemes. Micro-Trains, long dominated the market with their unmatched program of monthly freight car releases, but have been seeing sales drop off. IMHO it is due to N Scalers looking to Atlas, InterMountain, and Athearn for more carefully executed and common "railroady" paint schemes on more accurate stand-ins, if not exact prototype bodies. The days of a six-foot door PS1
being acceptable as a canvas for any 36-40 FT steel boxcar paint scheme (especially the eye-catching unusual ones) are gone. (not to say that there still is a "Collector's Market that will buy State, Presidents, Province, Smokey the Bear, etc.. cars... but this is separate from the main body of N Scalers).

The interest in prototype continues and feeds on itself as more people become aware of What Was. I think to write off those that don't build resin kits as The Great Unwashed" is counterproductive. Some people may accept stand-ins for much of their equipment but have some great models of prototypes they are really interested in, and to dismiss them is missing an opportunity to learn from them. The more people learn about freight cars and what they "need" on their particular railroad the less the oddball and flashy paint schemes will sell.

Charlie Vlk





Forgive me for weighing in on this topic so late. Somewhere in the next 100 messages that I have yet to read is probably the same point I will make but expressed in a more lucid way. Anyway . . .

Tom is quite correct, I believe, when he states that a plastic model succeeds only when "The Great Umwashed" (i.e. non-STMFC members) buy them in great numbers.

I would like to disagree with his "Education, my friend, education" paragraph. I am convinced that The Great Umwashed buy paint schemes, not accurate models.

In support of my point of view I offer the following. Anything with the M&StL's post-1956 red and white paint scheme sells well without regard to accuracy. Accuracy can either mean a well done car modeling something the M&StL actually had or that the paint scheme is well and accurately rendered on an otherwise bogus model.

Clark Propst and I have busted our humps to publicize and promote accurate M&StL models and paint schemes. Obviously we still have a way to go.

Richard and Tony did indeed bring PFE reefers to the attention of all but, I submit, The Great Umwashed once again buy paint schemes. Just look at all the lettering and herald variations on PFE reefers.

Gene Green
.


Tim O'Connor
 

Charlie Vlk wrote

The interest in prototype continues and feeds on itself as more people become
aware of What Was. I think to write off those that don't build resin kits as
The Great Unwashed" is counterproductive.
Charlie I don't mean that at all by TGU... Nevertheless there
will always be a segment (probably the majority) of hobbyists
who simply DO NOT CARE. What they like about trains and what we
(most of US anyway) like is simply something different.

I've seen peoples' jaws almost hit the floor when I told them
a model freight car was made of brass. It was inconceivable in
their universe that anyone would "waste" so much money on a
model freight car.

The vendors know this. I was told at a show by an Athearn rep
that the mass produced junk (pretty paint schemes on ancient
tooling with no regard for accuracy) subsidizes the good stuff.
Fine by me!

Tim O'Connor


Charlie Vlk
 

Tim-
But even the people that buy by paintscheme are becoming more sophisticated.... the paint schemes that sell are more accurate renditions than you saw a couple of decades ago.
The general trend in the industry is towards more accuracy..... even in trainset-level stuff ..... maybe because the entry-level stuff isn't going out to the general public as much as it did at one time......trains are not truly just another "toy" nowadays.
I grant you that there are some among us that don't want to know and won't be swayed by knowledge.... but most people can be educated and are willing to learn.... especially in the Hobby of Model Railroading.
The good news is that almost all manufacturers know that you have to build to the high end of the spectrum... you can sell stuff that is too accurate (for at least one prototype) to all but you can't sell made-up stuff to anybody but the low end. Only one importer persists in selling old tooling in bogus paint (including, incredibly, the Marx F3!! which in its day was a poor copy of the Varney F3!!!) and they are pretty much off the radar lately and you don't see their products very much anywhere.
Charlie Vlk


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
I grant you that there are some among us that don't want to know and won't be swayed by knowledge.... but most people can be educated and are willing to learn.... especially in the Hobby of Model Railroading.
I don't think this is true, Charlie. But I do think that lots of the GUW in fact are QUITE sensitive to things that are "wrong." Somewhat inaccurate -- hey, they can live with that -- but "wrong" seems to hit a button. That's not what I'd call education, though. They don't want to know the "why" for themselves.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Charlie Vlk
 

Tony-
I actually agree with you.... the general "taste" if you will, has improved to the point where people are sensitive to "wrong"....
when I said "some" I meant the hard-core few boneheads that are perversely contrary no matter how much intormation is presented to them.
To me information and learning is a Major part of the Hobby and probably why my personal modeling suffers... I want DATA!!!! MORE DATA!!!
Charlie Vlk


Tim O'Connor
 

My Dad was not unwashed -- he bought Cyclopedias, clipped articles
from magazines, took thousands of prototype photos, built dozens of
craftsman kits -- but I'm convinced he never knew the difference
between a PS-1 and an AAR box car, much less the more subtle
differences we all know and love. And it's not his age or era
either, because many people on this list are nearly as old (he
was born in 1926) and some may be older. I'm the one who absorbed
it all -- I was like a sponge for that stuff. He continued to buy
junk models, AND good prototype models, until he stopped buying
anything at all a few years ago. I think there are a lot of
hobbyists out there like him! They're not stupid, but it's just
not what turns them on. Different strokes for different folks.

Tim O'Connor

Charlie Vlk wrote:
I grant you that there are some among us that don't want to know and
won't be swayed by knowledge.... but most people can be educated and
are willing to learn.... especially in the Hobby of Model Railroading.
I don't think this is true, Charlie. But I do think that lots of
the GUW in fact are QUITE sensitive to things that are "wrong."
Somewhat inaccurate -- hey, they can live with that -- but "wrong"
seems to hit a button. That's not what I'd call education, though.
They don't want to know the "why" for themselves.

Tony Thompson


Stokes John
 

Your "confession" here, Charlie, hits the point, sometimes too much information is really too much for most people. It can become bewildering trying to keep up with perfection for every car in your collection, especially if your main interest is in operation or just running a close approximation of a specific or proto freelanced road and enjoy seeing and running trains. I think that is the vast majority of the market, and something that is close still gets the cigar if it looks like the car and looks good to the eye.

Yes standards have been improving, and what people will accept keeps creeping up, but at some point the joy of model railroading overcomes the angst of "is this car absolutely prototypical in every respect and I can't live with it if not." For collectors and stmfc aficionados, nearing perfecting may be the goal, and if that floats their boat, great.

I am not in any way saying that the work to gain more knowledge and prototypical information, and influence manufacturers to try harder to be accurate in design, execution and painting of freight cars is not something that should be encouraged, to the contrary. But don't get depressed or angry or denigrate the vast less washed because your ideals and wishes for all the esoteric and perfect cars you want may be slow in being fulfilled.

Keep up the good work, but keep smiling, this is a hobby.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA

To: STMFC@...
From: cvlk@...
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:20:30 -0500
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???


























Tony-

I actually agree with you.... the general "taste" if you will, has improved to the point where people are sensitive to "wrong"....

when I said "some" I meant the hard-core few boneheads that are perversely contrary no matter how much intormation is presented to them.

To me information and learning is a Major part of the Hobby and probably why my personal modeling suffers... I want DATA!!!! MORE DATA!!!

Charlie Vlk


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
Tony-
I actually agree with you.... the general "taste" if you will, has improved to the point where people are sensitive to "wrong"....when I said "some" I meant the hard-core few boneheads that are perversely contrary no matter how much intormation is presented to them.
To me information and learning is a Major part of the Hobby and probably why my personal modeling suffers... I want DATA!!!! MORE DATA!!!
Couldn't agree more, and I suspect most of this list membership feels at least part of that same impulse. And let's all keep in mind how high are standards today, and how much really good stuff is being produced. Richard Hendrickson likes to say, "Guys, this IS the golden age." I think he's right.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Armand Premo
 

If you are happy with it that's all that counts.The majority will never know the difference. Ignorance is bliss.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???





Charlie Vlk wrote:
> Tony-
> I actually agree with you.... the general "taste" if you will, has
> improved to the point where people are sensitive to "wrong"....when
> I said "some" I meant the hard-core few boneheads that are
> perversely contrary no matter how much intormation is presented to
> them.
> To me information and learning is a Major part of the Hobby and
> probably why my personal modeling suffers... I want DATA!!!! MORE
> DATA!!!

Couldn't agree more, and I suspect most of this list membership
feels at least part of that same impulse. And let's all keep in mind
how high are standards today, and how much really good stuff is being
produced. Richard Hendrickson likes to say, "Guys, this IS the golden
age." I think he's right.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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roblmclear <rob.mclear2@...>
 

I think this is a very interesting subject and I couldn't agree more with Armand. I know that I for one started out as one of the great unwashed as I suspect most of us did. But time and research and the quest for more knowledge made us more refined and demanding in our tastes and our purchases reflected this. The industry I think sensing change came along with us for the ride, especially after a number of small resin freight car manifacturers, small though they may be started to be known and to make small but significant inroads. Having switched from HO to N if find like Charlie that Micro Trains which I thought reasonable from the start no longer satisfy my needs and that I am looking for cars that are more and more correct in their details. To the point now where I am starting to think that making masters and resin casting may be the only way that I am going to get what I need.

As for the great unwashed I would like to think that in time we will see a lot of them on lists like this, they are the new and future blood of the hobby, without the people starting out and making their purchases on the basis of what looks good to them at the time there would be no support industry to help us get what we need. The comment by the person from Athearn summed it up exactly and in time those people, some of them at least, will find just as most of us did that rough enough is not good enough and will become more discerning in their purchases. It also behoves us to get out their and promote the message and to support the people that provide us with the cars we want. I don't know what happened to the Intermountain N scale Caswell Gondola but I haven't seen any announcement of it and maybe that is because sales, as I understand it of the HO version were not that good. If we want the prototype specific cars, either in kits, which I prefer, or ready to run we have to be able to support those manifactures that go out on the limb for us.

I go to a lot of hobby shows with portable layouts, the last one was Cajon Pass measuring 30 X 15 feet with Summit on one side and Devore on the other and we were always quick to tell people that you need to start out small buy quality motive power but buy the cheapest rolling stock you can until you become more interested and define your direction. I now see those people regularly at hobby and industry shows and they all end up like us, wanting more information more correct cars. It's in our nature to want more information no matter what we do, we are all basically curious creatures. I thank God for the great unwashed more power to them and we should be finding more of them.

Just my thoughts
Rob.

--- In STMFC@..., "Armand Premo" <armprem2@...> wrote:

If you are happy with it that's all that counts.The majority will never know the difference. Ignorance is bliss.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???





Charlie Vlk wrote:
> Tony-
> I actually agree with you.... the general "taste" if you will, has
> improved to the point where people are sensitive to "wrong"....when
> I said "some" I meant the hard-core few boneheads that are
> perversely contrary no matter how much intormation is presented to
> them.
> To me information and learning is a Major part of the Hobby and
> probably why my personal modeling suffers... I want DATA!!!! MORE
> DATA!!!

Couldn't agree more, and I suspect most of this list membership
feels at least part of that same impulse. And let's all keep in mind
how high are standards today, and how much really good stuff is being
produced. Richard Hendrickson likes to say, "Guys, this IS the golden
age." I think he's right.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.8/2227 - Release Date: 07/09/09 05:55:00




Ray Breyer
 

But I do think that lots of the GUW in fact are QUITE
sensitive to things that are "wrong." Somewhat inaccurate
-- hey, they can live with that -- but "wrong" seems to
hit a button. That's not what I'd call education, though. 
They don't want to know the "why" for themselves.
Tony Thompson     

I'm not quite sure you've seen the hobby at large over the past 20 years or so Tony. We riveteers tend to keep to ourselves a bit too much, which is natural. But sell at a local swap for a few months running, head to as many local NMRA division open houses as you can stand, and (shudder) hang out on the MR forum, and you'll see a whole 'nuther hobby altogether.

My own personal observations are that 90% of the hobby DOSEN'T care. They buy what they like, period. If they are modeling "a specific time & place", especially one in the dim, dark past, they're still doing it wrong, and happily so. Even us "proto geeks" don't always get it right even if we DO know better. I'm not talking about stand in models, I'm talking about running beer reefers in 1924, or too many 36' DS boxcars for 1949 (my own faux pas). Heck, many of the best modelers in this hobby are freelancers for these same sorts of reasons.

Right or wrong, we have to live with the reality that the overwhelming majority of the hobby only buys the cool stuff. Why do you thing we've got so many fool articulateds on the market, and now Centipedes? We steam-era modelers have needed quality plastic 57" drivered Consolidations since forever, but when will we see one? The only Mikados on the market are USRA; that's most manufacturer's token "small steamer".

The best we can do is to expand the general knowledge pool, hope some of it rubs off on one or two stray individuals, and try our hardest to comvince manufacturers to make a new boxcar model, rather than yet another 1944 AAR or PS-1. That way at least we'll get something needed, while the great unwashed might buy it for it's coolness factor.

Regards,

Ray Breyer


Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

John Stokes wrote (in part):

.. don't get depressed or angry or denigrate the vast less washed because your ideals and wishes for all the esoteric and perfect cars you want may be slow in being fulfilled.
Denigrating anyone hasn't been a part of this issue - not modelers of earlier times, nor anyone's father, nor Western road modelers. It started when Ray Breyer observed:

"Along those lines, how come we've got PRR and N&W hoppers coming out of our ears, but we can't get a decent NYC offset side twin hopper?"

A simple enough question, and my reaction (not being an NYC modeler) was "You mean currently available models aren't decent?" Which prompted me to write (also in part):

"You need the participation of "The Great Unwashed" (i.e. non-STMFC
members) to make a plastic kit a success, but they have to be made aware of the differences between your NYC hopper and the Athearn & Atlas alternatives. Then they have to be convinced that those differences are significant, and that they can't live without several on their layouts. Show them the differences."

I probably should have left out that tongue in cheek "non-STMFC" phrase, because in this case The Great Unwashed included me - and anyone else here who had no idea Ray's desired hopper was different from available models, and cared about it. Nothing about whether or not we were educatable. Of course we are - but education works best when accompanied by inspiration.

There's an old cartoon showing a passerby coming upon two fellows fighting. The passerby asks "What's going on?", and one of the fighters says "I'm trying to bring him around to my way of thinking." If you want to rally others to your cause, denigration just won't do it.

Tom Madden


anthony wagner
 

We all oughta be grateful for the poeple who don't care about accuracy. They are the ones who keep manufacturers in business so that those of us who do care about it can get at least some of what we want. Little by little models of different prototypes appear over time, but lets face it there were so many prototype designs running around at the same time, no one could duplicate them all. Also, as modelers get pickier, the market shrinks, thus making it less attractive for a manufacturer to invest in tooling for a given model. Just some thoughts, Tony Wagner

--- On Fri, 7/10/09, Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:

From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "The Great Unwashed"....Educatable???
To: STMFC@...
Date: Friday, July 10, 2009, 5:42 PM


























But I do think that lots of the GUW in fact are QUITE
sensitive to things that are "wrong." Somewhat inaccurate
-- hey, they can live with that -- but "wrong" seems to
hit a button. That's not what I'd call education, though. 
They don't want to know the "why" for themselves.
Tony Thompson     


I'm not quite sure you've seen the hobby at large over the past 20 years or so Tony. We riveteers tend to keep to ourselves a bit too much, which is natural. But sell at a local swap for a few months running, head to as many local NMRA division open houses as you can stand, and (shudder) hang out on the MR forum, and you'll see a whole 'nuther hobby altogether.



My own personal observations are that 90% of the hobby DOSEN'T care. They buy what they like, period. If they are modeling "a specific time & place", especially one in the dim, dark past, they're still doing it wrong, and happily so. Even us "proto geeks" don't always get it right even if we DO know better. I'm not talking about stand in models, I'm talking about running beer reefers in 1924, or too many 36' DS boxcars for 1949 (my own faux pas). Heck, many of the best modelers in this hobby are freelancers for these same sorts of reasons.



Right or wrong, we have to live with the reality that the overwhelming majority of the hobby only buys the cool stuff. Why do you thing we've got so many fool articulateds on the market, and now Centipedes? We steam-era modelers have needed quality plastic 57" drivered Consolidations since forever, but when will we see one? The only Mikados on the market are USRA; that's most manufacturer' s token "small steamer".



The best we can do is to expand the general knowledge pool, hope some of it rubs off on one or two stray individuals, and try our hardest to comvince manufacturers to make a new boxcar model, rather than yet another 1944 AAR or PS-1. That way at least we'll get something needed, while the great unwashed might buy it for it's coolness factor.



Regards,



Ray Breyer

































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


James Eckman
 


Posted by: "Charlie Vlk"
Before the interest level in accurate freight cars spread and people started digging up and researching material on freight cars almost all of us were "The Great Unwashed".
Some of us don't bathe that often either ;) But On30 is not on topic...
<SNIP>

I would say there are alot more people out there that don't show up at RPM meets that are increasingly prototype-aware and don't just buy cars based on paint schemes. Micro-Trains, long dominated the market with their unmatched program of monthly freight car releases, but have been seeing sales drop off. IMHO it is due to N Scalers looking to Atlas, InterMountain, and Athearn for more carefully executed and common "railroady" paint schemes on more accurate stand-ins, if not exact prototype bodies.
I think the classic example of that is the Rensselaer Model Railroad club where they bought cars they knew were not perfect because they wanted to run what they considered to be a balanced fleet. They even rated their cars with the intention of improving or replacing them. Is this "Unwashed"?
The interest in prototype continues and feeds on itself as more people become aware of What Was. I think to write off those that don't build resin kits as The Great Unwashed" is counterproductive. Some people may accept stand-ins for much of their equipment but have some great models of prototypes they are really interested in, and to dismiss them is missing an opportunity to learn from them. The more people learn about freight cars and what they "need" on their particular railroad the less the oddball and flashy paint schemes will sell.
People who want large operating layouts will probably have to compromise a bit. Build a 1,000 resin cars in what period of time? I agree with Charlie here, all model railroads have compromises caused by time, money or lack of interest or skill in a given area. Operations folks usually consume rolling stock like candy! On the other hand I'm not much of an operator, but my small fleet is almost entirely scratch, bashed resin or laser kits. Encouraging better prototype cars and paint schemes is all to the good, no other comments needed I think.

Jim


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Also, as modelers get pickier, the market shrinks, thus making it less attractive for a manufacturer to invest in tooling for a given model.<
I think many of us don't believe this. It's been said for a long time the cost to make a model right is the same as making it wrong. "Pickier" might refer to details but in most cases it cost the same to cut the molds.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 10, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Jon Miller wrote:

Also, as modelers get pickier, the market shrinks, thus making it
less
attractive for a manufacturer to invest in tooling for a given
model.<
I think many of us don't believe this. It's been said for a long time
the cost to make a model right is the same as making it wrong.
"Pickier"
might refer to details but in most cases it cost the same to cut
the molds.







I agree. And the problem, in most cases, isn't the R&D people, who
are generally competent and know where to get correct prototype
data. It's the sales guys, who typically get input mostly from hobby
shop owners and who figure that only a handful of us nut cases know
or care whether what they produce is accurate or not, so the hell
with it.

Richard Hendrickson


James Yaworsky
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
And the problem, in most cases, isn't the R&D people, who
are generally competent and know where to get correct prototype
data. It's the sales guys, who typically get input mostly from hobby
shop owners and who figure that only a handful of us nut cases know
or care whether what they produce is accurate or not, so the hell
with it.

Along these lines, I always make it a point to tell my local hobby shop owner why I'm ordering what I order. And I also tell them when they show me something that they've got in that I know is wrong, why I'm not going to buy it, despite the fact it's "all decorated up for my favourite road".

I think I've made some progress because now when the owner approaches me to ask if I know that "product 'x'" is coming out, she also asks me if I know whether it's "correct" or not - and she knows if the answer is "no", that I'm not buying!

I've also noticed that often when I order something now, she orders a few more for the store's general stock. She's told me that this other stuff generally sells off fast - partly because she approaches persons she knows have the same focus as me and assures them that the model is "correct". She also likes to show items she's holding for me to these people, because often they'll order it themselves as a result. On a few occasions, she's even asked if I'll leave it with her for a few weeks for that specific purpose - foregoing instant cash flow to hopefully drum up more sales. Now that's faith!

There was some initial controversy over the colours of the two-tone grey cars on the recent Walthers 20th Century Limited release, and the word was spread that apparently Walthers was really getting nervous about some of the negative feedback they were getting. I, along with others, therefore made a point of e-mailing Walthers. In my case, I said that the NYC passenger car experts were fairly unanimous that the scheme used was the most correct to date, and that was good enough for me so I had pre-ordered the entire set. I got a grateful acknowledgment from Walthers, so I was glad I did it.

Small steps, to be sure. But I like to delude myself that it all adds up... the goal being to encourage the manufacturers to do the best models that they can.

Jim Yaworsky


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Yaworsky wrote:
Small steps, to be sure. But I like to delude myself that it all adds up... the goal being to encourage the manufacturers to do the best models that they can.
I think you're entirely right, Jim. If mfgrs. got more kudos when it's right, instead of only brickbats when stuff is NOT right, it could only help. Especially at those mfgrs. who let sales guys dictate model paint schemes--which is certainly a lot of them, if not close to all of them.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history