PRR H21e quad hopper with riveted side stakes


proto48er
 

Guys -

This series of questions is prompted by my recent purchase on Ebay of an "O" scale H21e made by the late Bob Parri, one of only six that he made. I would like to detail and paint it correctly. (I owned another one of these six models about 14 years ago, but sold it because I thought it was incorrect, not having welded side stakes. I could only find photos of welded cars.)

Now I understand that more than 8,000 H21e hoppers were converted from H21a hoppers in two time periods: 1930 and post 1946. Almost all of the H21e photos I have seen were of cars with welded side stakes (except for the two side stakes that were riveted to the interior braces.) However, SOMEWHERE I saw ONE shot of an H21e with ALL riveted side stakes like an H21a, but I cannot find that photo now that I have the car!

I have looked at the informaton on the old Keystone Models website and in the May-June 2006 era of the PRRPro Yahoo group with no luck! These sites have prototype photos of PRR #727129, a welded stake car, but Keystone made the riveted version. There is no info on how the earlier all riveted cars looked, or their number series. In my ORER's, there are H21e series in numerous PRR number series, but they are mixed in with H21a's.

It is my assumption that the cars converted to H21e's in 1930, which first show up in the 1933 ORER, were cars with riveted side stakes. Is this correct? Does anyone have any actual car numbers of H21e cars in the 1930 series? There had to have been at least ten of them converted, and probably many more, at that time. They were added to several number series in the ORER.

Am I correct in assuming that the 1946 and later conversions were all welded side stake cars?

I want a riveted side stake car for my March 15th - April 15th, 1948 era. What's a modeler to do??

Thanks, guys!

A.T. Kott


Bruce Smith
 

On Mon, August 17, 2009 6:02 pm, proto48er wrote:
It is my assumption that the cars converted to H21e's in 1930, which first show up
in the 1933 ORER, were cars with riveted side stakes. Is this correct?
A.T.,


What's the total number of cars listed as converted in the 1933 ORER and what is
their number series? I find no such cars in the 1943 ORER and no mention of this
earlier group in Teichmoeller's book, which has the H21E appearing in August 1947.

Am I correct in assuming that the 1946 and later conversions were all welded side
stake cars?
AFAIK, yes.

I want a riveted side stake car for my March 15th - April 15th, 1948 era. What's a
modeler to do??
What does the interior look like? Are there triangular crossridge braces? Does it
have a flat center sill cover plate? If so, then you may be stuck, if not, you've
got an H21A, not an H21E.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


proto48er
 

Bruce -

Thanks for the reply! I have really enjoyed the PRR Project group!

First, about ten number series of H21a's in the July, 1933 ORER have the notation "H21a, H21e" but do not differentiate one type from the other. These number series have several thousand cars in them. The H21e notation is not present at all in the January, 1931 or May, 1932 ORER's. Later, starting in about 1946, additional numbers were added to the front of several of the number series, and I presume these were also newly converted H21e's, but they could just as easily have been renumbered H21a's from other number series. Some other number series had the "H21e" notation added in 1947 that only had "H21a" before. There were also some H21b's in there, and I have one of them too! No photo for it either!

Steve Grabowski had an import business called Keystone Models, and it brought in "O" scale brass models of the H21, H21a, H21b and H21e from Korea several years ago. I am not certain that he imported any of the H21e's other than the pilot model, because his Korean builder dissolved, I think, while the cars were being made. His website (now dissolved into the ether) stated that the H21e's were first converted from H21a's in 1930. That was the first I ever heard that! However, upon checking the ORER's, he apparently was correct.

Grabowski's website showed photos of PRR #727129, a welded car, but his pilot model photos showed a riveted car exactly like the Parri car. I am certain that the Parri car is correct - for how many prototype cars, I have no clue - because I saw a photo SOMEWHERE on the web of a riveted car! I did not save the photo because I thought that I would never see one of the six Parri cars for sale again, but there one was two weeks ago on Ebay!!

The interior of the Parri car has two pair of curved side braces and no crossbraces. The slope sheets also have the correct pair of longitudinal support angles under them running from the body bolsters to the ends of the car. The only H21a's with these angles were apparently in iron ore service (I have one of those also.) The centersill is identical to the H21a, which I would expect of an early 1930's era rebuild (the H21b has the AAR centersill.) However, the H21e has a flat centersill coverplate somewhat similar to, but more narrow than, the H21b (a PSC import.) There are triangular reinforcing plates on the sides of the car at the braces centered on the body bolsters.

My "research" on number series is at home. I tried to determine whether the Parri car was part of a large series of H21e's or just a few converted in 1930 before the depression hit. I followed the various number series through the ORER's up to 1949, but all the H21e's were mixed with H21a's and H21b's in each ORER. I will post the numbers tomorrow. Incidentally, PRR got lax about putting the class designations in the ORER's by the mid-1950's. No H21g's listed.

Thanks for the help!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Mon, August 17, 2009 6:02 pm, proto48er wrote:
It is my assumption that the cars converted to H21e's in 1930, which first show up
in the 1933 ORER, were cars with riveted side stakes. Is this correct?
A.T.,


What's the total number of cars listed as converted in the 1933 ORER and what is
their number series? I find no such cars in the 1943 ORER and no mention of this
earlier group in Teichmoeller's book, which has the H21E appearing in August 1947.

Am I correct in assuming that the 1946 and later conversions were all welded side
stake cars?
AFAIK, yes.

I want a riveted side stake car for my March 15th - April 15th, 1948 era. What's a
modeler to do??
What does the interior look like? Are there triangular crossridge braces? Does it
have a flat center sill cover plate? If so, then you may be stuck, if not, you've
got an H21A, not an H21E.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:41 PM, proto48er wrote:
First, about ten number series of H21a's in the July, 1933 ORER have the notation "H21a, H21e" but do not differentiate one type from the other. These number series have several thousand cars in them. The H21e notation is not present at all in the January, 1931 or May, 1932 ORER's. Later, starting in about 1946, additional numbers were added to the front of several of the number series, and I presume these were also newly converted H21e's, but they could just as easily have been renumbered H21a's from other number series. Some other number series had the "H21e" notation added in 1947 that only had "H21a" before. There were also some H21b's in there, and I have one of them too! No photo for it either!
A.T.,

Without primary data from the PRR showing that the H21E modifications were performed in the early 1930s, I'm highly dubious. I tend not to base my data on model manufacturers web sites ;^) In addition ORER entries are replete with errors and even if correct, should not be taken as evidence of the class existing. It is possible that space was designated in number series for a designed class, without any cars. The non-existence of these cars is borne out by the subsequent absence of the H21E class from the ORER. Does "H21E" appear in any pre 1947 ORER other than the 1933 version? It is certainly not to be seen anywhere in the 1943 ORER (yet the other contemporary H21 subclasses are present).

Right now, based on the data available, I'll believe Teichmoeller WRT the installation of the H21E class.

Now, as to whether any members of that class had riveted side stakes, that is a different issue, as it is possible that some conversions maintained the rivets. You should have saved that photo!! I have looked for it and found nothing...

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
ORER entries are replete with errors . . .
I would disagree with "replete," because although errors are certainly findable in ORER entries by anyone who spends much time perusing them, they are NOT at all common. Considering the hundreds of thousands of individual data entries in a single issue, I would state that errors are in fact rare.
In the case under discussion, the PRR may have added an entry for "H21E" before the actual introduction of that subclass and subsequently withdrawn it, but in my mind that's not an error--I assume the PRR really would have expected to introduce that sub-class, and when it was postponed (the year 1933 suggests reasons why that might have occurred), removed it again.
I certainly would never claim the ORER data are anywhere near infallible, but do not like to see statements implying that errors are common or numerous. In my experience, the exact opposite is true.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


SUVCWORR@...
 

A.T.

It appears you may be confusing the H21B with the H21E.? I have checked the July 1933 ORER from Al Westerfield's CD of PRR ORERs and found no H21E's.? There are a number of series of H21A and H21B cars without any differentiation as well as number series with both H21A and H22A class cars.

From the ORER's, which are not necessarily the most reliable source, the H21B was first listed in 1931; the H21e in July, 1947.? The H21D (covered hopper conversion) was first listed in 1935.? It does not seem reasonable that the H21E would pre-date the H21D.? There was no H21C as far as I have been able to determine.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: proto48er <atkott@swbell.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 9:41 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PRR H21e quad hopper with riveted side stakes










Bruce -

Thanks for the reply! I have really enjoyed the PRR Project group!

First, about ten number series of H21a's in the July, 1933 ORER have the
notation "H21a, H21e" but do not differentiate one type from the other. These
number series have several thousand cars in them. The H21e notation is not
present at all in the January, 1931 or May, 1932 ORER's. Later, starting in
about 1946, additional numbers were added to the front of several of the number
series, and I presume these were also newly converted H21e's, but they could
just as easily have been renumbered H21a's from other number series. Some other
number series had the "H21e" notation added in 1947 that only had "H21a" before.
There were also some H21b's in there, and I have one of them too! No photo for
it either!

Steve Grabowski had an import business called Keystone Models, and it brought in
"O" scale brass models of the H21, H21a, H21b and H21e from Korea several years
ago. I am not certain that he imported any of the H21e's other than the pilot
model, because his Korean builder dissolved, I think, while the cars were being
made. His website (now dissolved into the ether) stated that the H21e's were
first converted from H21a's in 1930. That was the first I ever heard that!
However, upon checking the ORER's, he apparently was correct.

Grabowski's website showed photos of PRR #727129, a welded car, but his pilot
model photos showed a riveted car exactly like the Parri car. I am certain that
the Parri car is correct - for how many prototype cars, I have no clue - because
I saw a photo SOMEWHERE on the web of a riveted car! I did not save the photo
because I thought that I would never see one of the six Parri cars for sale
again, but there one was two weeks ago on Ebay!!

The interior of the Parri car has two pair of curved side braces and no
crossbraces. The slope sheets also have the correct pair of longitudinal
support angles under them running from the body bolsters to the ends of the car.
The only H21a's with these angles were apparently in iron ore service (I have
one of those also.) The centersill is identical to the H21a, which I would
expect of an early 1930's era rebuild (the H21b has the AAR centersill.)
However, the H21e has a flat centersill coverplate somewhat similar to, but more
narrow than, the H21b (a PSC import.) There are triangular reinforcing plates
on the sides of the car at the braces centered on the body bolsters.

My "research" on number series is at home. I tried to determine whether the
Parri car was part of a large series of H21e's or just a few converted in 1930
before the depression hit. I followed the various number series through the
ORER's up to 1949, but all the H21e's were mixed with H21a's and H21b's in each
ORER. I will post the numbers tomorrow. Incidentally, PRR got lax about
putting the class designations in the ORER's by the mid-1950's. No H21g's
listed.

Thanks for the help!

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Mon, August 17, 2009 6:02 pm, proto48er wrote:
It is my assumption that the cars converted to H21e's in 1930, which first
show up
in the 1933 ORER, were cars with riveted side stakes. Is this correct?
A.T.,


What's the total number of cars listed as converted in the 1933 ORER and what
is
their number series? I find no such cars in the 1943 ORER and no mention of
this
earlier group in Teichmoeller's book, which has the H21E appearing in August
1947.

Am I correct in assuming that the 1946 and later conversions were all welded
side
stake cars?
AFAIK, yes.

I want a riveted side stake car for my March 15th - April 15th, 1948 era.
What's a
modeler to do??
What does the interior look like? Are there triangular crossridge braces?
Does it
have a flat center sill cover plate? If so, then you may be stuck, if not,
you've
got an H21A, not an H21E.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


proto48er
 

Tony -

It is ME who was confused, not Bruce! Bruce was 100% correct, and I was confusing the H21b with the H21e class! I should never post unless I have my files here with me at the office! A.T. eats more bitter!!

It appears that by the mid-1950's, the PRR was not updating the car classes in the ORER's as fastidiously as they did in the 1930's and 1940's. I did not find any H21g's listed (did not look very hard for them, however) in the two later ORER's.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Bruce Smith wrote:
ORER entries are replete with errors . . .
I would disagree with "replete," because although errors are
certainly findable in ORER entries by anyone who spends much time
perusing them, they are NOT at all common. Considering the hundreds of
thousands of individual data entries in a single issue, I would state
that errors are in fact rare.
In the case under discussion, the PRR may have added an entry
for "H21E" before the actual introduction of that subclass and
subsequently withdrawn it, but in my mind that's not an error--I
assume the PRR really would have expected to introduce that sub-class,
and when it was postponed (the year 1933 suggests reasons why that
might have occurred), removed it again.
I certainly would never claim the ORER data are anywhere near
infallible, but do not like to see statements implying that errors are
common or numerous. In my experience, the exact opposite is true.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


proto48er
 

Rich -

You are exactly correct! Our only computers are at the office, and my train stuff is at the house! I had not reviewed all the "research" I did about four weeks ago before I made my first two bad posts! I have hard copies of the ORER's from 1898 to 1964 at home, except for 6 missing years (one ORER for each year.)

The H21c was apparently a proposed covered hopper design that was never built. There was one H21d (PRR #254250) that was on the roster until at least 4/49.

Sorry to have caused any confusion, and I appreciate all the help!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, SUVCWORR@... wrote:


A.T.

It appears you may be confusing the H21B with the H21E.? I have checked the July 1933 ORER from Al Westerfield's CD of PRR ORERs and found no H21E's.? There are a number of series of H21A and H21B cars without any differentiation as well as number series with both H21A and H22A class cars.

From the ORER's, which are not necessarily the most reliable source, the H21B was first listed in 1931; the H21e in July, 1947.? The H21D (covered hopper conversion) was first listed in 1935.? It does not seem reasonable that the H21E would pre-date the H21D.? There was no H21C as far as I have been able to determine.

Rich Orr




SUVCWORR@...
 

A.T..

The first listing I show for the H21G is the Jan. 1961 ORER.? This lists a number of series of cars with H21G subclasses intermixed with H21A, H21B, and H21E in the same number series.? When these cars were rebuilt or modified they were no renumbered.? So the only true way to tell which exact cars are in which subclass is from photographs.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: proto48er <atkott@swbell.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Aug 18, 2009 12:45 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PRR H21e quad hopper with riveted side stakes










Tony -

It is ME who was confused, not Bruce! Bruce was 100% correct, and I was
confusing the H21b with the H21e class! I should never post unless I have my
files here with me at the office! A.T. eats more bitter!!

It appears that by the mid-1950's, the PRR was not updating the car classes in
the ORER's as fastidiously as they did in the 1930's and 1940's. I did not find
any H21g's listed (did not look very hard for them, however) in the two later
ORER's.

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Bruce Smith wrote:
ORER entries are replete with errors . . .
I would disagree with "replete," because although errors are
certainly findable in ORER entries by anyone who spends much time
perusing them, they are NOT at all common. Considering the hundreds of
thousands of individual data entries in a single issue, I would state
that errors are in fact rare.
In the case under discussion, the PRR may have added an entry
for "H21E" before the actual introduction of that subclass and
subsequently withdrawn it, but in my mind that's not an error--I
assume the PRR really would have expected to introduce that sub-class,
and when it was postponed (the year 1933 suggests reasons why that
might have occurred), removed it again.
I certainly would never claim the ORER data are anywhere near
infallible, but do not like to see statements implying that errors are
common or numerous. In my experience, the exact opposite is true.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Philip Marcus
 

--- On Mon, 8/17/09, proto48er <atkott@swbell.net> wrote:

From: proto48er <atkott@swbell.net>
Subject: [STMFC] PRR H21e quad hopper with riveted side stakes
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:02 PM






 





Guys -



This series of questions is prompted by my recent purchase on Ebay of an "O" scale H21e made by the late Bob Parri, one of only six that he made. I would like to detail and paint it correctly. (I owned another one of these six models about 14 years ago, but sold it because I thought it was incorrect, not having welded side stakes. I could only find photos of welded cars.)



Now I understand that more than 8,000 H21e hoppers were converted from H21a hoppers in two time periods: 1930 and post 1946. Almost all of the H21e photos I have seen were of cars with welded side stakes (except for the two side stakes that were riveted to the interior braces.) However, SOMEWHERE I saw ONE shot of an H21e with ALL riveted side stakes like an H21a, but I cannot find that photo now that I have the car!



I have looked at the informaton on the old Keystone Models website and in the May-June 2006 era of the PRRPro Yahoo group with no luck! These sites have prototype photos of PRR #727129, a welded stake car, but Keystone made the riveted version. There is no info on how the earlier all riveted cars looked, or their number series. In my ORER's, there are H21e series in numerous PRR number series, but they are mixed in with H21a's.



It is my assumption that the cars converted to H21e's in 1930, which first show up in the 1933 ORER, were cars with riveted side stakes. Is this correct? Does anyone have any actual car numbers of H21e cars in the 1930 series? There had to have been at least ten of them converted, and probably many more, at that time. They were added to several number series in the ORER.



Am I correct in assuming that the 1946 and later conversions were all welded side stake cars?



I want a riveted side stake car for my March 15th - April 15th, 1948 era. What's a modeler to do??



Thanks, guys!



A.T. Kott

See Teichmoeller book page 158. Photo of PRR h-21e 714303 and 745759. Both are riveted construction. Bob Parri was a craftsman not an importer. He did a lot of research, had much help and made few mistakes.
Phil Marcus


proto48er
 

Phil -

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

I am now going to have to purchase that book.

It is very true that Bob Parri was a craftsman and made few mistakes! I have been adding small details to a series of his NYC/P&LE/PMcK&Y USRA steel gondolas, and continue to marvel at his skill. He made an amazing 800 or so brass cars in a 12 year period. That is really impressive, considering how few cars I have done in a decade.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, PHIL MARCUS <marcusphil@...> wrote:

See Teichmoeller book page 158. Photo of PRR h-21e 714303 and 745759. Both are riveted construction. Bob Parri was a craftsman not an importer. He did a lot of research, had much help and made few mistakes.
Phil Marcus






























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Guys;

In my digging, I have been unable to find documentation on the actual
differenes between H21G and H21E, probably due to late date of rebuilding.
The obvious differences are not easily trackable, as some seemed to have hat
section side stakes, and others pressed shapes like the earlier H21E and late
H21A. They show a similarly frustrating mix of riveted and welded, also.

We do know that the H21E had a revised center sill, however, and a
flat-topped interior center sill cover. This flat-topped "A"-framed sill
cover got really beat up, and other than the deletion of cross-stake
reinforcement plates on the outside, and revision of rivet patterns like the
late H21A, there are not many other obvious differences.

Most folks would not know to look for them, so this may all be
rivet-counting!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
SUVCWORR@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 1:39 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR H21e quad hopper with riveted side stakes




A.T.

It appears you may be confusing the H21B with the H21E.? I have checked the
July 1933 ORER from Al Westerfield's CD of PRR ORERs and found no H21E's.?
There are a number of series of H21A and H21B cars without any
differentiation as well as number series with both H21A and H22A class cars.

From the ORER's, which are not necessarily the most reliable source, the H21B
was first listed in 1931; the H21e in July, 1947.? The H21D (covered hopper
conversion) was first listed in 1935.? It does not seem reasonable that the
H21E would pre-date the H21D.? There was no H21C as far as I have been able
to determine.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: proto48er <atkott@swbell.net <mailto:atkott%40swbell.net> >
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Aug 17, 2009 9:41 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: PRR H21e quad hopper with riveted side stakes

Bruce -

Thanks for the reply! I have really enjoyed the PRR Project group!

First, about ten number series of H21a's in the July, 1933 ORER have the
notation "H21a, H21e" but do not differentiate one type from the other. These
number series have several thousand cars in them. The H21e notation is not
present at all in the January, 1931 or May, 1932 ORER's. Later, starting in
about 1946, additional numbers were added to the front of several of the
number series, and I presume these were also newly converted H21e's, but they
could just as easily have been renumbered H21a's from other number series.
Some other number series had the "H21e" notation added in 1947 that only had
"H21a" before.
There were also some H21b's in there, and I have one of them too! No photo
for it either!

Steve Grabowski had an import business called Keystone Models, and it brought
in "O" scale brass models of the H21, H21a, H21b and H21e from Korea several
years ago. I am not certain that he imported any of the H21e's other than the
pilot model, because his Korean builder dissolved, I think, while the cars
were being made. His website (now dissolved into the ether) stated that the
H21e's were first converted from H21a's in 1930. That was the first I ever
heard that!
However, upon checking the ORER's, he apparently was correct.

Grabowski's website showed photos of PRR #727129, a welded car, but his pilot
model photos showed a riveted car exactly like the Parri car. I am certain
that the Parri car is correct - for how many prototype cars, I have no clue -
because I saw a photo SOMEWHERE on the web of a riveted car! I did not save
the photo because I thought that I would never see one of the six Parri cars
for sale again, but there one was two weeks ago on Ebay!!

The interior of the Parri car has two pair of curved side braces and no
crossbraces. The slope sheets also have the correct pair of longitudinal
support angles under them running from the body bolsters to the ends of the
car.
The only H21a's with these angles were apparently in iron ore service (I have
one of those also.) The centersill is identical to the H21a, which I would
expect of an early 1930's era rebuild (the H21b has the AAR centersill.)
However, the H21e has a flat centersill coverplate somewhat similar to, but
more narrow than, the H21b (a PSC import.) There are triangular reinforcing
plates on the sides of the car at the braces centered on the body bolsters.

My "research" on number series is at home. I tried to determine whether the
Parri car was part of a large series of H21e's or just a few converted in
1930 before the depression hit. I followed the various number series through
the ORER's up to 1949, but all the H21e's were mixed with H21a's and H21b's
in each ORER. I will post the numbers tomorrow. Incidentally, PRR got lax
about putting the class designations in the ORER's by the mid-1950's. No
H21g's listed.

Thanks for the help!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Bruce Smith"
<smithbf@...> wrote:

On Mon, August 17, 2009 6:02 pm, proto48er wrote:
It is my assumption that the cars converted to H21e's in 1930, which
first
show up
in the 1933 ORER, were cars with riveted side stakes. Is this correct?
A.T.,


What's the total number of cars listed as converted in the 1933 ORER
and what
is
their number series? I find no such cars in the 1943 ORER and no
mention of
this
earlier group in Teichmoeller's book, which has the H21E appearing in
August
1947.

Am I correct in assuming that the 1946 and later conversions were
all welded
side
stake cars?
AFAIK, yes.

I want a riveted side stake car for my March 15th - April 15th, 1948 era.
What's a
modeler to do??
What does the interior look like? Are there triangular crossridge braces?
Does it
have a flat center sill cover plate? If so, then you may be stuck, if
not,
you've
got an H21A, not an H21E.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


proto48er
 

Elden -

I actually moved more flat rock this morning for out patio project, so take the following with a grain of salt!

The H21b and H21e each have the 12" ARA centersill. However, I think only the H21e has the pair of 4" angles under the slope sheets on each end of the car, between the end and the body bolster. These angles can sometimes be seen in photos, and they were only on a few H21a's, I recall. Interior shots of a few H21a's show the location of the two lines of rivets on these angles. The angles were centered on the vertical end braces on either side of the striker plate.

The interior of the H21e's has curving side braces without crossbraces, while the earlier cars have trapezoidal side braces between the upper and lower crossbraces.

I have no earthly idea what an H21g is, since it is out of my "time period.)

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Guys;

In my digging, I have been unable to find documentation on the actual
differenes between H21G and H21E, probably due to late date of rebuilding.
The obvious differences are not easily trackable, as some seemed to have hat
section side stakes, and others pressed shapes like the earlier H21E and late
H21A. They show a similarly frustrating mix of riveted and welded, also.

We do know that the H21E had a revised center sill, however, and a
flat-topped interior center sill cover. This flat-topped "A"-framed sill
cover got really beat up, and other than the deletion of cross-stake
reinforcement plates on the outside, and revision of rivet patterns like the
late H21A, there are not many other obvious differences.

Most folks would not know to look for them, so this may all be
rivet-counting!

Elden Gatwood


proto48er
 

Phil -

I just received the Teichmoeller book, and the two photos of H21e's on page 158 do indeed represent the "O" scale model that Bob Parri made. The only difference is that Parri's model has the ladder on the left of the carside - a later addition for ease in servicing the AB brakes, apparently. Taking the ladder stile off the model, there is already a rivet in the proper place under it! Easy to backdate.

I wish someone would publish the remainder of the 1947-era photos in the Charles collection! I love every one of them so far!

Thanks again!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:

Phil -

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

I am now going to have to purchase that book.

It is very true that Bob Parri was a craftsman and made few mistakes! I have been adding small details to a series of his NYC/P&LE/PMcK&Y USRA steel gondolas, and continue to marvel at his skill. He made an amazing 800 or so brass cars in a 12 year period. That is really impressive, considering how few cars I have done in a decade.

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, PHIL MARCUS <marcusphil@> wrote:

See Teichmoeller book page 158. Photo of PRR h-21e 714303 and 745759. Both are riveted construction. Bob Parri was a craftsman not an importer. He did a lot of research, had much help and made few mistakes.
Phil Marcus