PRR H21e quad hopper with riveted side stakes + H21b's


proto48er
 

Bruce -

I AM SORRY!!! I have totally confused the H21b and H21e classes in my two former posts!! I am "eating bitter" as the Chinese say! Defense - I hauled and placed a bunch of 100 lb. flat rocks for several hours yesterday morning in our new patio, worked at the office in the afternoon, and made the nutty posts between picking up and returning my mother-in-law to and from supper! It was a long day, and I did my "research" about four weeks ago when the H21e was first listed on Ebay.

The H21b was a class of only 198 cars converted from H21a's in 1930 and 1943. The conversion involved replacing the 12" channel centersill with a 12" ARA centersill. The spotting feature is in the interior of the car - a flat top on the centersill, with angled sides. The H21a's had a peaked centersill cover inside the cars.

I also screwed up on the ORER info. In January, 1931, H21b's were added to the following H21a series, presumably in the portions that were "sawtooth" and not "shallow" hoppers:

PRR #136731-139821 (1,656 shallow + 1,122 sawtooth) H21e's later.

PRR #173625-180000 (3,516 shallow + 2,746 sawtooth) H21e's later.

PRR #185132-197740 (7,446 shallow + 5,112 sawtooth) H21e's later;
by 1/43, this series was expanded to PRR #183000-197740 (13,491 cars);
by 1/44, this series was expanded to PRR #182500-197740 (14,244 cars).

PRR #261461-262000 (377 sawtooth + 161 shallow) no H21e's by 1/48.

PRR #676001-677045 (634 shallow + 336 sawtooth) H21e's later.

PRR #677426-677484 (34 shallow + 23 sawtooth) no H21e's later.

PRR #685606-686352 (456 shallow + 266 sawtooth) no H21e's later.

PRR #695330-696000 (384 shallow + 200 sawtooth) no H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #695330-695984 (576 cars).

PRR #700600-700881 (171 shallow + 108 sawtooth) no H21e's later.

PRR #706401-706909 (354 shallow + 102 sawtooth) no H21e's later.

PRR #707017-707046 (14 shallow + 12 sawtooth) no H21e's later.

PRR #714300-714475 (105 shallow + 56 sawtooth) no H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #714300-714462 (160 cars).

PRR #717118-718000 (541 shallow + 314 sawtooth) no H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #717118-717979 (844 cars).

PRR #718969-720275 (777 shallow + 306 sawtooth) H21e's later.

PRR #741001-746000 (3,034 shallow + 1,016 sawtooth) H21e's later.

PRR #746456-748100 (1,099 shallow + 476 sawtooth) H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #746464-748100 (1,560 cars).

PRR #900219-904000 (1,153 shallow + 748 sawtooth) H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #900219-903920 (1,889 cars).

By "H21e's later" in the above, this means that by 1/48, H21e's had been added to that number series. "No H21e's later" means that by 1/48 there were no H21e's in that number series.

I am looking for a photo or car number of an H21b and a photo of an H21e with riveted sides! I can paint an H21b with just knowing a proper number. However, for the H21e I would sure like a photo! I may have corrections or additions to the Parri car.

Thanks for the help! Sorry, Bruce!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:41 PM, proto48er wrote:
First, about ten number series of H21a's in the July, 1933 ORER
have the notation "H21a, H21e" but do not differentiate one type
from the other. These number series have several thousand cars in
them. The H21e notation is not present at all in the January, 1931
or May, 1932 ORER's. Later, starting in about 1946, additional
numbers were added to the front of several of the number series,
and I presume these were also newly converted H21e's, but they
could just as easily have been renumbered H21a's from other number
series. Some other number series had the "H21e" notation added in
1947 that only had "H21a" before. There were also some H21b's in
there, and I have one of them too! No photo for it either!
A.T.,

Without primary data from the PRR showing that the H21E modifications
were performed in the early 1930s, I'm highly dubious. I tend not to
base my data on model manufacturers web sites ;^) In addition ORER
entries are replete with errors and even if correct, should not be
taken as evidence of the class existing. It is possible that space
was designated in number series for a designed class, without any
cars. The non-existence of these cars is borne out by the subsequent
absence of the H21E class from the ORER. Does "H21E" appear in any
pre 1947 ORER other than the 1933 version? It is certainly not to be
seen anywhere in the 1943 ORER (yet the other contemporary H21
subclasses are present).

Right now, based on the data available, I'll believe Teichmoeller WRT
the installation of the H21E class.

Now, as to whether any members of that class had riveted side stakes,
that is a different issue, as it is possible that some conversions
maintained the rivets. You should have saved that photo!! I have
looked for it and found nothing...

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
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proto48er
 

Bruce -

There were indeed 8,546 H21e's converted from H21a's, and you are correct that conversions to H21e did not start until 1946! (Kott eats more bitter!) The H21e centersill cover apparently looked very similar to the H21b's cover. However, the H21e's had no internal crossties (the H21b's did, the same as the H21a's), but instead had two pair of curving braces inside to support the car sides.

The Parri H21e (and his very scarce H25a) looks exactly like the photos of PRR #727129 H21e on the prr.railfan.net website, except that the Parri model's car sides have rivets! I KNOW that SOMEWHERE I have seen a photo of a riveted H21e! Hate to have to remove rivets from a brass car to make it correct! Incidentally, Parri only made (3) H25a hoppers and (21) standard H25's.

Another interesting thing about the H21b is that the PRR "Arrangement of Lettering" dated 12/4/26 and updated occasionally, first lists painting instructions for the H21b on 11/14/1942! At least (17) of the H21b's had been around for twelve years by then! I say 17 cars because the 1/31 ORER lists the H21b in 17 different number series! The H21e was added on 4/26/46.

I am thankful to be a MoPac, M-K-T and T&NO modeler after trying to figure all this PRR stuff out!


A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@> wrote:


On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:41 PM, proto48er wrote:
First, about ten number series of H21a's in the July, 1933 ORER
have the notation "H21a, H21e" but do not differentiate one type
from the other. These number series have several thousand cars in
them. The H21e notation is not present at all in the January, 1931
or May, 1932 ORER's. Later, starting in about 1946, additional
numbers were added to the front of several of the number series,
and I presume these were also newly converted H21e's, but they
could just as easily have been renumbered H21a's from other number
series. Some other number series had the "H21e" notation added in
1947 that only had "H21a" before. There were also some H21b's in
there, and I have one of them too! No photo for it either!
A.T.,

Without primary data from the PRR showing that the H21E modifications
were performed in the early 1930s, I'm highly dubious. I tend not to
base my data on model manufacturers web sites ;^) In addition ORER
entries are replete with errors and even if correct, should not be
taken as evidence of the class existing. It is possible that space
was designated in number series for a designed class, without any
cars. The non-existence of these cars is borne out by the subsequent
absence of the H21E class from the ORER. Does "H21E" appear in any
pre 1947 ORER other than the 1933 version? It is certainly not to be
seen anywhere in the 1943 ORER (yet the other contemporary H21
subclasses are present).

Right now, based on the data available, I'll believe Teichmoeller WRT
the installation of the H21E class.

Now, as to whether any members of that class had riveted side stakes,
that is a different issue, as it is possible that some conversions
maintained the rivets. You should have saved that photo!! I have
looked for it and found nothing...

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


pennsylvania1954
 

A. T.--In the Teichmoeller book, p. 157, H21b 744007, shown in Harrisburg, 1948.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


proto48er
 

Steve -

Thank you very much for pointing out the H21b photo to me. I purchased a copy of Teichmoeller on Amazon and just received it. The photo is a great help!

When PSC imported their "O" scale model of an "H21a" back in the 1980's, I recall that their sales newsletter had prototype photos of the interior of a prototype car. The PSC model faithfully copied that interior shot. The flat-topped centersill led me to believe that the model was really an H21b. The remainder of the interior is pure H21a, and therefore not an H21e. The centersill on the model is not correct for an H21a, but probably represents the H21b - PSC must have had plans from someone, because this detail does not show in most photos.

In addition to the PRR cars in the book, I was excited to see photos of an N&W H-3 as leased to B&O. My time frame is April, 1948. The lease to B&O was from 1944 "through 1948" according to the book. The April 1948 ORER lists about 45 of the leased N&W cars (out of 2,000) still in the B&O roster. The January 1948 ORER lists about 150 under lease; the July 1947 ORER has more than 650 in the B&O roster. The lease must have been tapering off. I have too many N&W hoppers - a favorite of "O" scale importers along with C&O - so am glad to have my H-2 finished in B&O paint, with a couple of minor modifications!

Thank you again!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "pennsylvania1954" <stevehprr@...> wrote:

A. T.--In the Teichmoeller book, p. 157, H21b 744007, shown in Harrisburg, 1948.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL