I've come across a couple of photos showing the above noted cars in Vancouver B.C. in 1952. That's a long way for a load of bananas to come by rail, and kind of surprising to me. So I am wondering if my guesswork is out of whack or this trip would have been repeated over the years. More particularly, what is the chance such movements would have been made in 1946? I ask not because I expect someone to know what cars travelled in those cars to Vancouver that year, but rather for a general sense of the banana trade in these cars - did anything significant change in the market or marketing of bananas by this company during those 6 years that might suggest a change?

I do have records showing the produce shipped into Vancouver for 1953, and it identifies Central America alone as the source. But is says nothing about whether shipments were delivered via one route or multiple routes, and so it seems possible they might have arrived by train from an east coast Canadian port, by train from a Gulf or Atlantic coast USA port (explaining the cars in question), or via ship at a west coast Canadian port. I wonder if there is any information supporting any of these alternatives to the WIF&SS service?

Thanks in advance for any leads I can follow.

Rob Kirkham
Surrey, B.C.

Rob Kirkham wrote:

I do have records showing the produce shipped into Vancouver for 1953, and it identifies Central America alone as the source. But is says nothing about whether shipments were delivered via one route or multiple routes, and so it seems possible they might have arrived by train from an east coast Canadian port, by train from a Gulf or Atlantic coast USA port (explaining the cars in question), or via ship at a west coast Canadian port. I wonder if there is any information supporting any of these alternatives to the WIF&SS service?

There were large banana docks at both Los Angeles and San Francisco in the 1950s. I don't know about Seattle.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Ok - thanks Tony - that's a start. So ships brought the fruit some ways up the west coast - which makes economic sense to me (as would continuing the rest of the way).

Were those "banana docks" in LA and San Francisco actually named or otherwise designated as such?

I know the docks in Vancouver pretty well (though not everything that went through them), and have yet to see a reference to a banana dock here. If bananas were received here by ship (which I expect but question whether it was unusual or frequent), I expect it could have been at any of a number of the larger piers that had ready access to proper storage - but again, no indication what facilities of that sort existed in Vancouver BC. I'm not even sure what I would be looking for in terms of generic warehouse descriptions. Cold storage? Or something else?


Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:58 PM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] West India Fruit & Steamship #106 and #321

Rob Kirkham wrote:

I do have records showing the produce shipped into Vancouver for
1953, and it identifies Central America alone as the source. But is
says nothing about whether shipments were delivered via one route or
multiple routes, and so it seems possible they might have arrived by
train from an east coast Canadian port, by train from a Gulf or
Atlantic coast USA port (explaining the cars in question), or via
ship at a west coast Canadian port. I wonder if there is any
information supporting any of these alternatives to the WIF&SS
service?

There were large banana docks at both Los Angeles and San
Francisco in the 1950s. I don't know about Seattle.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Were those "banana docks" in LA and San Francisco actually named or otherwise designated as such?

The one in San Francisco was built by SP and was near the commercial warehouse, the Terminal Building, owned by the railroad just south of China Basin. I don't know if the dock itself had its own name. There are photos of the facility in the PFE book, page 372. Likewise in Los Angeles, I know of records of PFE using old reefers for (uniced) transport of bananas from San Pedro (Los Angeles Harbor) into downtown LA and beyond, but don't know what name the dock might have had. In the PFE book, it's stated that Northern Pacific served a banana dock in Seattle (p. 373).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., "Rob Kirkham" <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Were those "banana docks" in LA and San Francisco actually named or
otherwise designated as such?

Rob,

Here is a link to the Port of Los Angeles "Virtual History Tour" web site. This is the page regarding Berth 147 - United Fruit Company.

http://www.laporthistory.org/level3/berth_147.html

And, here is a link with info on banana shipments through the port...

http://www.laporthistory.org/level4/Berth147/berth147_trend2.html

Hope these are helpful,

-John Hile

Thanks for this info Tony and John - I'll read up on it and see if I can pull out some more research clues for my own neck of the woods.

Rob Kirkham

--- In STMFC@..., "Rob Kirkham" <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Ok - thanks Tony - that's a start.
So ships brought the fruit some ways up the west coast ..
Were those "banana docks" in LA and San Francisco actually named or
otherwise designated as such?

Rob, I can't help about Vancouver but there is an old thread about "Houling bananas" on the SP group some time ago:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Espee/message/41165
Maybe you can source some spare info.
In SF the "banana dock" was part of the docks along the China Basin (near the present stadium). Here the ships unloaded to the United Fruit Company sheds where then are tranfered to rails.
See also here some interesting story in LA:
http://www.laporthistory.org/level3/berth_147.html
cheers
Enzo Fortuna
Modeling SP in Italy
http://valleybeforesilicon.blogspot.com/

Rob Kirkham wrote:

I've come across a couple of photos showing the above noted cars in

Vancouver B.C. in 1952. That's a long way for a load of bananas to come
by rail, and kind of surprising to me. So I am wondering if my
guesswork is out of whack or this trip would have been repeated over the
years. More particularly, what is the chance such movements would have
been made in 1946? I ask not because I expect someone to know what cars
travelled in those cars to Vancouver that year, but rather for a general
sense of the banana trade in these cars - did anything significant
change in the market or marketing of bananas by this company during
those 6 years that might suggest a change?

I do have records showing the produce shipped into Vancouver for 1953,

and it identifies Central America alone as the source. But is says
nothing about whether shipments were delivered via one route or multiple
routes, and so it seems possible they might have arrived by train from
an east coast Canadian port, by train from a Gulf or Atlantic coast USA
port (explaining the cars in question), or via ship at a west coast
Canadian port. I wonder if there is any information supporting any of
these alternatives to the WIF&SS service?

What type of rail cars are WIF&SS #106 and #321, box, reefer, ...?

The WIF&SS was affiliated with as Bill Welch terms them, "Our
Companies", the Fruit Growers Express Group so the cars could just be in
general produce service.

Bob Witt

I have a West India Fruit & Steamship brochure:
 
"Fast Movement for Perishables
 
Hundreds of carloads of Cuban grown pineapples, as well as other perishables are handled annually over this route. Loaded from fields into railroad cars, the pineapples are reloaded at the Port of Palm Beach into American refrigerator cars"
 
Picture shows three box cars none of which are reefers.  
 
The car ferries ran between Havana and the Port of Palm Beach FL. This was formerly a service operated by the FEC.
 
WIFS had only XM standard 40' boxes.
 
Ross McLeod Calgary  




__________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

http://www.flickr.com/gift/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In STMFC@..., Ross McLeod <cdnrailmarine@...> wrote:

I have a West India Fruit & Steamship brochure:
 
"Fast Movement for Perishables
 
Hundreds of carloads of Cuban grown pineapples, as well as other
perishables are handled annually over this route. Loaded from
fields into railroad cars, the pineapples are reloaded at the Port
of Palm Beach into American refrigerator cars"
 
Picture shows three box cars none of which are reefers.  
 
The car ferries ran between Havana and the Port of Palm Beach FL. This was formerly a service operated by the FEC.
 
WIFS had only XM standard 40' boxes.

They also had some reefers. Please search the group archive for "West India Fruit", and enjoy!

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

 
Ross McLeod Calgary  




__________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

http://www.flickr.com/gift/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The whole movement of fruit into and through Vancouver is a pretty foggy subject as far as I can tell.

I'm not sure what all of the factors that distinguish the area might include - the boarder, differing fruit growing geography (this ain't California); the ways of the fruit export markets (trade barriers; old arrangements with Britain and Europe, etc); timing of development in Vancouver compared with LA and SF (Vancouver was a ways behind in harbour development), and which Corporations (mostly CPR up here) were trying to control access to tidewater. But whatever the differences were, I know of no docks up here owned or identified by fruit companies. We had large grain elevators, lumber shipping, and shipping for other commodities in smaller quantities - even a "Copra" dock (that changed to canola when South Sea supplies were cut off in WWII), but nothing identified as for fruit. Given the sensitivity of fruit loads, that surprises me a bit.

I do know that mandarin oranges were imported from Japan pre and post WWII - but (at least) a portion of these shipments arrived on the huge luxury liners of the CPR, which suggests to me that the quantities involved may never have been enough to justify a dedicated facility during most of the era this list covers.

I also know that the major grocery chains and their wholesalers had warehouses - but these were not on the docks and were designed for rail delivery.

There is a lot more to be learned on this topic.... And freight cars from the West India Fruit & SS Co add a fun dimension to the puzzles.

Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "babbo_enzo" <babbo_enzo@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:42 AM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: West India Fruit & Steamship #106 and #321

--- In STMFC@..., "Rob Kirkham" <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Ok - thanks Tony - that's a start.
So ships brought the fruit some ways up the west coast ..
Were those "banana docks" in LA and San Francisco actually named or
otherwise designated as such?

Rob, I can't help about Vancouver but there is an old thread about "Houling bananas" on the SP group some time ago:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Espee/message/41165
Maybe you can source some spare info.
In SF the "banana dock" was part of the docks along the China Basin (near the present stadium). Here the ships unloaded to the United Fruit Company sheds where then are tranfered to rails.
See also here some interesting story in LA:
http://www.laporthistory.org/level3/berth_147.html
cheers
Enzo Fortuna
Modeling SP in Italy
http://valleybeforesilicon.blogspot.com/




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Hey Rob,



I'm attaching a summation of West India Fruit and West Palm Beach Terminal RR operations.



I've always been interested in the WIF so I know enough to be dangerous. So I'll help if I can.



BTW, #106 is a class Bx-2 X-29 or a ARA 1923 steel box car (I'm not an expert on the differences) in the 101 to 199 series (10 cars total).



#321 is a class Bx-2 AC&F AAR 1944 steel box car from the 200 to 349 series (150 cars total) built in 1952.



The WIF main business was moving people and cargo from Cuba to the US. It purchased this operation from the Florida East Coast Ferry Company in 1946 and operated ferries from 1946 until 1961 when Castro and company basically kicked them out. They moved the operation from Port Everglades to Port of Palm Beach in 1946 because of the better yard facilities. The West Palm Beach Terminal RR handled the switching of cars and I believe the FEC was the only outlet to the rest of the US.



So how did those two WIF box cars get to Vancouver? Well since Cuba was a large source of fruit, tobacco, and other agri commodities, it could mean that it was delivering those goods to Vancouver. And cars going back to Cuba probably were loaded with some Canadian paper goods.



Cuba depends a lot on importing finished wood products and lumber from the US and Canada during this time period. In fact there is a shortage of toilet paper in Cuba right now. So it could be as simple as that as to why WIF cars were spotted in Vancouver with the possible routing of Havana - Port of Palm Beach, FL - Vancouver and back again.



- Steve H., Everett, WA



To: STMFC@...
From: rdkirkham@...
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:20:45 -0700
Subject: [STMFC] West India Fruit & Steamship #106 and #321





I've come across a couple of photos showing the above noted cars in Vancouver B.C. in 1952. That's a long way for a load of bananas to come by rail, and kind of surprising to me. So I am wondering if my guesswork is out of whack or this trip would have been repeated over the years. More particularly, what is the chance such movements would have been made in 1946? I ask not because I expect someone to know what cars travelled in those cars to Vancouver that year, but rather for a general sense of the banana trade in these cars - did anything significant change in the market or marketing of bananas by this company during those 6 years that might suggest a change?

I do have records showing the produce shipped into Vancouver for 1953, and it identifies Central America alone as the source. But is says nothing about whether shipments were delivered via one route or multiple routes, and so it seems possible they might have arrived by train from an east coast Canadian port, by train from a Gulf or Atlantic coast USA port (explaining the cars in question), or via ship at a west coast Canadian port. I wonder if there is any information supporting any of these alternatives to the WIF&SS service?

Thanks in advance for any leads I can follow.

Rob Kirkham
Surrey, B.C.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









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Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I do believe that WIF & FGE had a relationship, but I do not know as yet at least how far back this extended.

Regarding WIF 106 and cars in the same series, these were not 1923 cars. They were rather 10 foot IH cars w/Duryea originally built for the High Point Thomasville & Denton Railroad, where they numbered 20 cars in total and at some point they sold off 10 to WIF.

Steve Funaro told me he released the HPT&D cars at a couple of shows awhile back and when they did not sell, he did not cast any more. I sent him the two photos I have stenciled for WIF and color scan of the Champ decal set I have w/the round herald to encourage him to see there was larger potential but no movement so far.

Bill Welch

In Classic Freight Cars the Series Vol. 3 40' Refrigerator cars page 51
there is a photo of WIF reefer 724. It is a full page photo so a lot of
detail can be seen. The caption says the car was rebuilt by FGE at their
Jacksonville shops in 1955 but please confirm this statement independently.



Henry Maywald, author of other volumes in the Classic Freight Car Series
passed away several months ago.



Matt Herson



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
lnbill
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:29 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: West India Fruit & Steamship #106 and #321





I do believe that WIF & FGE had a relationship, but I do not know as yet at
least how far back this extended.

--- In STMFC@..., "Matt Herson" <mherson@...> wrote:

In Classic Freight Cars the Series Vol. 3 40' Refrigerator cars page 51
there is a photo of WIF reefer 724. It is a full page photo so a lot of
detail can be seen. The caption says the car was rebuilt by FGE at their
Jacksonville shops in 1955 but please confirm this statement independently.

Accurail did this lettering scheme as a special a number of years ago, following this specific photo.

There is also a photo of WIF 314, a 40' boxcar with what appears to be an 8' door on page 43 of Classic Freight Cars Vol.1. Notable differences appear in the steamship herald, other than the fact that one is white on a FCR car and the other is black on a yellow car; the black ship on the reefer has a single stack and a pointed prow (lots of shear on the prow) while the ship painted on the boxcar has a near vertical prow, a longer superstructure, and several masts in addition to the stack. Both have the F in a diamond on the stack and say FLORIDA - HAVANNA on the hull.

Dennis

I should have posted links to photos of these cars some days ago. They are on the City of Vancouver Archives, and you can find them easily by searching with using West India Fruit as a search term on the subject line. <http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/archives/webpubhtml/qbes/ws_photocombined.htm>

Rob Kirkham
Surrey, B.C.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:07 AM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: West India Fruit & Steamship #106 and #321

--- In STMFC@..., "Matt Herson" <mherson@...> wrote:

In Classic Freight Cars the Series Vol. 3 40' Refrigerator cars page 51
there is a photo of WIF reefer 724. It is a full page photo so a lot of
detail can be seen. The caption says the car was rebuilt by FGE at their
Jacksonville shops in 1955 but please confirm this statement independently.

Accurail did this lettering scheme as a special a number of years ago, following this specific photo.

There is also a photo of WIF 314, a 40' boxcar with what appears to be an 8' door on page 43 of Classic Freight Cars Vol.1. Notable differences appear in the steamship herald, other than the fact that one is white on a FCR car and the other is black on a yellow car; the black ship on the reefer has a single stack and a pointed prow (lots of shear on the prow) while the ship painted on the boxcar has a near vertical prow, a longer superstructure, and several masts in addition to the stack. Both have the F in a diamond on the stack and say FLORIDA - HAVANNA on the hull.

Dennis





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Hopefully, Bill's research will uncover the details of their business
relationship.

To illustrate further that the WIF had refrigerator cars see this
example of a mechanical reefer created by rebuilding some former
fishbelly underframe freight car (USRA?). This car is lettered in "FGE"
style lettering of that period.

http://www.flarr.com/wifsc1.htm
http://www.flarr.com/wifsc2.htm

There is other information on this web {Florida Railroad} site hinting
at a relationship between the FEC, FGX and WIF in the 1950s. Look in the
"Site Menu" tab under FEC or FGE.

Bob Witt


--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I do believe that WIF & FGE had a relationship, but I do not know as

yet at least how far back this extended.

Regarding WIF 106 and cars in the same series, these were not 1923

cars. They were rather 10 foot IH cars w/Duryea originally built for the
High Point Thomasville & Denton Railroad, where they numbered 20 cars in
total and at some point they sold off 10 to WIF.

Steve Funaro told me he released the HPT&D cars at a couple of shows

awhile back and when they did not sell, he did not cast any more. I sent
him the two photos I have stenciled for WIF and color scan of the Champ
decal set I have w/the round herald to encourage him to see there was
larger potential but no movement so far.

Bill Welch


--- In STMFC@..., "rwitt_2000" rwitt_2000@ wrote:

Rob Kirkham wrote:

I've come across a couple of photos showing the above noted cars

in

Vancouver B.C. in 1952. That's a long way for a load of bananas to

come

by rail, and kind of surprising to me. So I am wondering if my
guesswork is out of whack or this trip would have been repeated over

the

years. More particularly, what is the chance such movements would

have

been made in 1946? I ask not because I expect someone to know what

cars

travelled in those cars to Vancouver that year, but rather for a

general

sense of the banana trade in these cars - did anything significant
change in the market or marketing of bananas by this company during
those 6 years that might suggest a change?

I do have records showing the produce shipped into Vancouver for

1953,

and it identifies Central America alone as the source. But is says
nothing about whether shipments were delivered via one route or

multiple

routes, and so it seems possible they might have arrived by train

from

an east coast Canadian port, by train from a Gulf or Atlantic coast

USA

port (explaining the cars in question), or via ship at a west coast
Canadian port. I wonder if there is any information supporting any

of

these alternatives to the WIF&SS service?

What type of rail cars are WIF&SS #106 and #321, box, reefer, ...?

The WIF&SS was affiliated with as Bill Welch terms them, "Our
Companies", the Fruit Growers Express Group so the cars could just

be in

general produce service.

Bob Witt

Thanks for posting this link. There are some great photos of other
cars just by entering boxcar in the search field


Roger Hinman

Gentlemen,
As some very interesting detail about WIF 106 has already been posted, it may be appropriate to add some info re WIF 321 (series WIF 200-349) to this string for single-source reference.
Per "American Car & Foundry Company, A Centennial History, 1899-1999," Edward S. Kaminski, 1999, Signature Press; this was one of 150 40-foot 6-inch welded boxcars, with 8-foot doors and 50-ton trucks, in series WIF 200-349 built in January 1952 by ACF at the St. Louis plant as Lot #01-3593. The accompanying ACF builder's photo of WIF 289, from the Hawkins/Wider/Long collection, is a broadside view showing the Florida-Havana railroad car ferries logo with a vertical prow and two masts, fore and aft of the stack.
"Rail Model Journal" of October 1990 had an article titled "AAR-style 40-foot Box Cars Part XIII: The "Dartnaught" End Cars," which also showed WIF 289, in a 3/4 view (likely also an ACF photo from the same collection). The article's roster of ACF-built cars with their carbuilders "dart-not" end matched the road number series, lot number, and built date as in the AC&F book above, adding for modelers that this series of WIF box cars had a rectangular panel roof, 12-panel welded sides, 8-foot door (postwar improved Youngstown per the photo), Miner hand brake, and Apex TriLok running board, plus that the sides and ends paint matched Floquil ATSF Mineral Brown, with black underframe and trucks, and a galvanized roof with only the roof seam caps coated with sealer and painted box car red.
I'd also penned a note on the RMJ article above to see "Mainline Modeler" of May 1988, pages 52-54, re WIF box cars, but I'm afraid that since I've neither unpacked the mover's box with that magazine in it nor had I scanned that magazine before I left Germany to retire stateside, I can only provide that reference, but no further info.
And kudos to Rob Kirkham for that fantastic link to the City of Vancouver Archives - great stuff, still enjoying exploring it!
I hope this helps, Dave Sieber, Reno NV

On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:59 PM, ealabhan0 wrote:

The article's roster of ACF-built cars with their carbuilders
"dart-not" end matched the road number series, lot number, and built
date as in the AC&F book above, adding for modelers that this series
of WIF box cars had a rectangular panel roof, 12-panel welded sides,
8-foot door (postwar improved Youngstown per the photo), Miner hand
brake, and Apex TriLok running board, plus that the sides and ends
paint matched Floquil ATSF Mineral Brown, with black underframe and
trucks, and a galvanized roof with only the roof seam caps coated with
sealer and painted box car red.

Dave,
Actually, the roofs of the WIF 200-349 series were not rectangular
panel. They weren't diagonal panel roof either. For the longest time I
didn't know what this roof really looked like. Looking at a broadside
view of a builder's photo leads to an incorrect conclusion of the type
of roof applied to these cars.

A number of box cars built by AC&F from 1948 to 1954 had an unusual
proprietary roof called an ACF Riveted Roof. The 1949/51 and 1953 Car
Builder's Cyclopedias show a drawing of the roof that was used on a
series of Rock Island 40' box cars. The WIF 200-349 cars used the same
roof.

When viewed from the side at a relatively low angle, the roof appears
like any Murphy rectangular panel roof. However, the width of the
raised panel doesn't span across the roof. Rather, there's a depression
that splits the raised panel into three sections. Near the outside of
the raised portion, the middle section is slightly higher than the
adjoining areas. Inboard of this section (depicted by a rectangle on
the drawing in the CBC) is where the depression begins. The depression
tapers towards the center line of the car. It's difficult to describe
this roof in words, and it takes some interpretation to figure out from
the drawing in the CBC what this roof actually looks like. ACF drawings
of the roof have cross sections in several areas that completely define
its contour.

Bill Schneider had a copy of the ACF Riveted Roof drawing when he
worked at Branchline Trains, so he knows what it looks like. Once upon
a time there was a plan for BT to produce welded-side box cars, some of
which had this unique style of roof. A number of roads owned box cars
built by AC&F with these roofs including Reading, MKT, C&EI, WLE, ACL,
BAR, CN&L, CRR, ITC, KCS, RI, and WIF. There were even a few series of
50' box cars having this type of roof (CNW, GTW, Timken).

Unfortunately our hopes of the welded-side box cars didn't materialize,
nor did the ACF Riveted Roof. Maybe some day.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins