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C&O "For Progress"

mforsyth127
 

Group (and C&O Mavens in particular)

Can anyone advise as to when the C&O first started lettering box cars with the "For Progress" slogan, and in addition, when they started using that slogan on oxide red cars, but were doing so in yellow versus white?

I have a few color images of those cars (w/yellow "For Progress" on red car with black ends and roof) floating in some northbound D&H merchandise trains on their Penn Division, circa 1950.

More data on specific a date for that scheme would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt Forsyth

Modeling the D&H Penn Division/
Erie Jefferson Division in
"O" scale, Fall of 1951
Tim O'Connor
 

The "For Progress" slogan was applied from early 1948 on.

Can anyone advise as to when the C&O first started lettering box cars with the "For Progress" slogan, and in addition, when they started using that slogan on oxide red cars, but were doing so in yellow versus white?

I have a few color images of those cars (w/yellow "For Progress" on red car with black ends and roof) floating in some northbound D&H merchandise trains on their Penn Division, circa 1950.

More data on specific a date for that scheme would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt Forsyth

Modeling the D&H Penn Division/
Erie Jefferson Division in
"O" scale, Fall of 1951
mforsyth127
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


The "For Progress" slogan was applied from early 1948 on.
Tim,

Thanks for the insight. Do you have any idea about the yellow on red car versus the white on red car?

Thanks,

Matt Forsyth

Modeling the D&H Penn Division/
Erie Jefferson Division in
"O" scale, Fall of 1951
Scott Pitzer
 

--- In STMFC@..., "mforsyth127" <mforsyth127@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:


The "For Progress" slogan was applied from early 1948 on.
Tim,

Thanks for the insight. Do you have any idea about the yellow on red car versus the white on red car?
----------------------------
40' PS-1 box cars with 8' doors #16000-17999 were delivered starting in late 1950, with yellow lettering (sans-serif.)
(#16249 blt 12-50; #17099 blt 8-51.)

The yellow didn't hold up well, and some of these cars turn up in mid-50s photos relettered in the standard style (white roman) that was used before and after them.
In 1957 yellow lettering started to make a comeback.

Scott Pitzer
Tim O'Connor
 

Scott, those were two different PS lots:

C&O series 16000-16999 blt 1950 PS lot 5983 8' IY Yellow ltr
C&O series 17000-17999 blt 1951 PS lot 8017 8' IY Yellow ltr

Anyone know what was different about those PS-1 box cars than most
1950-1953 PS-1 box cars? Kadee surely would have produced this paint
scheme if any of their models matched the prototype. It may be something
as simple as rivets on the ends. I know this has stopped Kadee on some
other paint schemes.

Tim O'Connor

The "For Progress" slogan was applied from early 1948 on.
Tim,

Thanks for the insight. Do you have any idea about the yellow on red car versus the white on red car?
----------------------------

40' PS-1 box cars with 8' doors #16000-17999 were delivered starting in late 1950, with yellow lettering (sans-serif.) (#16249 blt 12-50; #17099 blt 8-51.)

The yellow didn't hold up well, and some of these cars turn up in mid-50s photos relettered in the standard style (white roman) that was used before and after them.
In 1957 yellow lettering started to make a comeback.

Scott Pitzer
Tim O'Connor
 

Nevermind my question regarding Kadee not doing the C&O PS-1's
from 16000-16999 series. Ed Hawkins discussed these in Dec 2003
and it sounds like there may be a (rather esoteric) difference
in how the ends were attached to the car sides that differs in
some way from the Kadee model. Sheesh. I like the C&O cars with
yellow letters and I wish there were models available...

Tim O'Connor

40' PS-1 box cars with 8' doors #16000-17999 were delivered starting in late 1950, with yellow lettering (sans-serif.) (#16249 blt 12-50; #17099 blt 8-51.)

The yellow didn't hold up well, and some of these cars turn up in mid-50s photos relettered in the standard style (white roman) that was used before and after them.
In 1957 yellow lettering started to make a comeback.

Scott Pitzer
Schuyler Larrabee
 

There was another time marker in the C&O For Progress logo, when the line above the train went from
a wavy line indicating steam locomotive smoke, to a straight line, which came about because of
dieselization.

What was the official date for this transition?

SGL


Nevermind my question regarding Kadee not doing the C&O PS-1's
from 16000-16999 series. Ed Hawkins discussed these in Dec 2003
and it sounds like there may be a (rather esoteric) difference
in how the ends were attached to the car sides that differs in
some way from the Kadee model. Sheesh. I like the C&O cars with
yellow letters and I wish there were models available...

Tim O'Connor

40' PS-1 box cars with 8' doors #16000-17999 were delivered starting in late 1950, with yellow
lettering (sans-serif.)
(#16249 blt 12-50; #17099 blt 8-51.)

The yellow didn't hold up well, and some of these cars turn up in mid-50s photos relettered in
the standard style (white
roman) that was used before and after them.
In 1957 yellow lettering started to make a comeback.

Scott Pitzer







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Brian Carlson <brian@...>
 

Wavy For Progress 1948, Straight line diesel for Progress early 1956,
according to page 4 of C&O Freight cars 1937-1965, Volume 1: Hopper and
Gondola cars by Al Kresse Jr.

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Schuyler Larrabee
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 12:28 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: C&O "For Progress"


There was another time marker in the C&O For Progress logo, when the line
above the train went from
a wavy line indicating steam locomotive smoke, to a straight line, which
came about because of
dieselization.

What was the official date for this transition?
Scott Pitzer
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:


There was another time marker in the C&O For Progress logo, when the line above the train went from
a wavy line indicating steam locomotive smoke, to a straight line, which came about because of
dieselization.

What was the official date for this transition?
The straight line (and lowered, centered PROGRESS) started showing up on freight cars and cabooses as early as November 1954.
Some shops did repaints with the obsolete version for several years; in fact, some ex-PM box cars which got their first C&O lettering at ex-PM shops in the mid-50s didn't get ANY logos (they were lettered in the pre-1948 scheme.)

Scott Pitzer
mforsyth127
 

MANY THANKS to all that provided info and insight into the C&O lettering schemes!

Matt Forsyth

Modeling the D&H Penn Division/
Erie Jefferson Division in "O"
Scale, Fall of 1951
water.kresse@...
 

It was yellow Futura Medium on brown.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 12:28:08 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: C&O "For Progress"


There was another time marker in the C&O For Progress logo, when the line above the train went from
a wavy line indicating steam locomotive smoke, to a straight line, which came about because of
dieselization.

What was the official date for this transition?

SGL


Nevermind my question regarding Kadee not doing the C&O PS-1's
from 16000-16999 series. Ed Hawkins discussed these in Dec 2003
and it sounds like there may be a (rather esoteric) difference
in how the ends were attached to the car sides that differs in
some way from the Kadee model. Sheesh. I like the C&O cars with
yellow letters and I wish there were models available...

Tim O'Connor

40' PS-1 box cars with 8' doors #16000-17999 were delivered starting in late 1950, with yellow
lettering (sans-serif.)
(#16249 blt 12-50; #17099 blt 8-51.)

The yellow didn't hold up well, and some of these cars turn up in mid-50s photos relettered in
the standard style (white
roman) that was used before and after them.
In 1957 yellow lettering started to make a comeback.

Scott Pitzer







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Tim O'Connor
 

Carrying this C&O discussion further --

When did C&O begin to paint box cars with black paint?

I've seen photos of black cars with yellow lettering, and black cars
with white lettering.

Were the two lettering colors used at the same time on different cars,
or did some black cars get one color lettering, and then they switched
to another lettering color on black?

Were all repainted box cars painted black for a period of time, or did
only certain cars get black paint?

Were any new cars delivered in black paint? With what color letters?

Tim O'Connor
Tim O'Connor
 

To answer some of my questions, I found an 11 year old email from
Ed Hawkins from the old freight cars mailing list. This email only
discusses new car paint schemes but does not tackle the issue of
repaints (if there were any).

Tim O'Connor

====================================================================
C&O definitely was experimenting with paint schemes in the late 1950s. Paint
data from an ACF 50' box car built 10-55 (series 28250-28999) had mineral
brown sides with black ends, underframe, and trucks. Roof was unpainted
galvanized steel and lettering was white. Two series of ACF cars built in 1957
were painted black with yellow lettering. I don't have the ACF paint specs on
these two series but color photos clearly show this scheme. Refer to Northern
Pacific Color Pictorial (Vol 1) - page 12 for a photo of a 40' box car (series
19000-19499). The car shown behind a steam switcher was built by ACF in April
1957. In the relatively new C&O Color Guide (Morning Sun) book - page 28, a
photo of 50' box car 19658 (ACF 5-57) is shown in new paint (black with yellow
lettering). This car is from series 19500-19999. Both of these black/yellow
box cars have a 9' door opening.

Yet another scheme is shown in the C&O Color Guide - page 30. The car is
#27875, built ACF 9-59 from series 27750-27999. It is painted black with white
lettering and still shows the ACF builder's logo with what appears to be the
original paint scheme. The reweigh date in the photo is 6-63 and the caption
states the car was photographed in 1967. The black paint is faded to the point
of appearing dark gray. ACF paint specs were not available on this series of
cars as well. This series had a 15' door opening with the 7' & 8' doors.

I would imagine that the 50' cars will be available soon from Branchline
Trains. The 40' car will require modification with a 9' door.

During the early 1960s I have seen some C&O cars painted blue with yellow
lettering, but I am getting out of my "era" so I will let someone else discuss
the blue cars!

Ed Hawkins
=====================================================================

Carrying this C&O discussion further --

When did C&O begin to paint box cars with black paint?

I've seen photos of black cars with yellow lettering, and black cars
with white lettering.

Were the two lettering colors used at the same time on different cars,
or did some black cars get one color lettering, and then they switched
to another lettering color on black?

Were all repainted box cars painted black for a period of time, or did
only certain cars get black paint?

Were any new cars delivered in black paint? With what color letters?

Tim O'Connor
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