Diatomite, talc and cement.. in boxcars or covered hoppers?


stevelucas3 <stevelucas3@...>
 

I was looking for a new STMFC project last night, when I happened upon an excellent HO Intermountain ACF covered hopper car kit that I'd squirreled away. Just a nice model, though one has to follow the instructions Very Carefully. Very Carefully!

In 1956, I'm assuming that the most common usage of these cars would have been for bulk cement. But how about bulk loading diatomite or talc as well? Could a car be loaded with either cement, talc, or diatomite without needing to be cleaned extensively between loads? And can anyone reference an on-line photo of a weathered talc or diatomite-service covered hopper?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Steve Lucas wrote:
In 1956, I'm assuming that the most common usage of these cars would have been for bulk cement. But how about bulk loading diatomite or talc as well? Could a car be loaded with either cement, talc, or diatomite without needing to be cleaned extensively between loads? And can anyone reference an on-line photo of a weathered talc or diatomite-service covered hopper?
Yes, very dominantly for cement in that year. But chemical companies and others were beginning to use covered hoppers for other cargos. I doubt if dolomite (limestone) would contaminate cement, but both talc and diatomite will change the setting rate, and thus the final strength, of concrete, so I'd doubt they would be loaded without cleaning. And that was true for most CH cars in leased chemical or foodstuff service AFAIK.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


stevelucas3 <stevelucas3@...>
 

Tony--

Thanks for your quick response. By the way, you read my mind. I did mean dolomite loading, not diatomite.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Steve Lucas wrote:
In 1956, I'm assuming that the most common usage of these cars would
have been for bulk cement. But how about bulk loading diatomite or
talc as well? Could a car be loaded with either cement, talc, or
diatomite without needing to be cleaned extensively between loads?
And can anyone reference an on-line photo of a weathered talc or
diatomite-service covered hopper?
Yes, very dominantly for cement in that year. But chemical
companies and others were beginning to use covered hoppers for other
cargos. I doubt if dolomite (limestone) would contaminate cement, but
both talc and diatomite will change the setting rate, and thus the
final strength, of concrete, so I'd doubt they would be loaded without
cleaning. And that was true for most CH cars in leased chemical or
foodstuff service AFAIK.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

I think talc was still shipped predominantly in box cars in
the 1950's. (For that matter so was cement.) Talc and portland
cement have very different densities so it seems unlikely a covered
hopper would be suited for both of those commodities. Nowadays talc
cars are almost twice as large as cement cars even thought they have
the same GRL.

Diatomite? You mean diatomaceous earth?

Tim O'Connor

I was looking for a new STMFC project last night, when I happened upon an excellent HO Intermountain ACF covered hopper car kit that I'd squirreled away. Just a nice model, though one has to follow the instructions Very Carefully. Very Carefully!

In 1956, I'm assuming that the most common usage of these cars would have been for bulk cement. But how about bulk loading diatomite or talc as well? Could a car be loaded with either cement, talc, or diatomite without needing to be cleaned extensively between loads? And can anyone reference an on-line photo of a weathered talc or diatomite-service covered hopper?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.


Jim Betz
 

Hi,

It's my belief that some of the earliest uses of covered hoppers and the
concept of "captive service" (other than coal/ore hoppers and other 'purpose
built' cars) was cement service. The earliest covered hoppers that I know
of were the small ones used on the C&O (or was it B&O ... I can never keep
those two roads straight ... *VBG*).
It was a long time later that other products began to be shipped in covered
hoppers and they gained their "ubiquitous" status.

Am I right?
- Jim


bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "stevelucas3" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

I was looking for a new STMFC project last night, when I happened upon an excellent HO Intermountain ACF covered hopper car kit that I'd squirreled away. Just a nice model, though one has to follow the instructions Very Carefully. Very Carefully!

In 1956, I'm assuming that the most common usage of these cars would have been for bulk cement. But how about bulk loading diatomite or talc as well? Could a car be loaded with either cement, talc, or diatomite without needing to be cleaned extensively between loads? And can anyone reference an on-line photo of a weathered talc or diatomite-service covered hopper?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.





Steve,
Don't know which road you are modeling but perhaps the CGW's experience might be useful to you.

The CGW had 210 covered hoppers but only 82 were assigned to cement service - 31 to Des Moines and 51 to Mason City, Iowa. Other covered hoppers were assigned to haul fertilizer, lime and livestock feed among other commodities. No cleaning was necessary for carrying different commodities because the cars always carried the same thing.

Gene Green


bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

Perhaps I should have added that the assignment of covered hoppers on the CGW began with the first series built in 1947.

Gene Green


Steve,
Don't know which road you are modeling but perhaps the CGW's experience might be useful to you.

The CGW had 210 covered hoppers but only 82 were assigned to cement service - 31 to Des Moines and 51 to Mason City, Iowa. Other covered hoppers were assigned to haul fertilizer, lime and livestock feed among other commodities. No cleaning was necessary for carrying different commodities because the cars always carried the same thing.

Gene Green


Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Steve,

On the Western Pacific, the first covered hoppers were 37' PS-1s. Most, if not all, were assigned to carry ground limestone from western Utah.

AFAIK, covered hoppers were more often assigned to the same commodity for years at a time. This avoided contamination and the need for cleaning.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

--- In STMFC@..., "stevelucas3" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

I was looking for a new STMFC project last night, when I happened upon an excellent HO Intermountain ACF covered hopper car kit that I'd squirreled away. Just a nice model, though one has to follow the instructions Very Carefully. Very Carefully!
In 1956, I'm assuming that the most common usage of these cars would have been for bulk cement. But how about bulk loading diatomite or talc as well? Could a car be loaded with either cement, talc, or diatomite without needing to be cleaned extensively between loads? And can anyone reference an on-line photo of a weathered talc or diatomite-service covered hopper?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.


stevelucas3 <stevelucas3@...>
 

I'm modelling an 87-mile-long stretch of railway line from Lindsay to Belleville in Eastern Ontario as part of a proto-freelanced system (as if the GTR had never taken the Midland Railway of Canada in in 1883) circa Sept./Oct., 1956.

This line saw mostly through grain traffic in boxcars, but branchlines connecting with this line originated talc, marble, and dolomite. I've also kept a cement plant on another connecting branchline in business for modelling purposes.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "bierglaeser" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "stevelucas3" <stevelucas3@> wrote:

I was looking for a new STMFC project last night, when I happened upon an excellent HO Intermountain ACF covered hopper car kit that I'd squirreled away. Just a nice model, though one has to follow the instructions Very Carefully. Very Carefully!

In 1956, I'm assuming that the most common usage of these cars would have been for bulk cement. But how about bulk loading diatomite or talc as well? Could a car be loaded with either cement, talc, or diatomite without needing to be cleaned extensively between loads? And can anyone reference an on-line photo of a weathered talc or diatomite-service covered hopper?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.





Steve,
Don't know which road you are modeling but perhaps the CGW's experience might be useful to you.

The CGW had 210 covered hoppers but only 82 were assigned to cement service - 31 to Des Moines and 51 to Mason City, Iowa. Other covered hoppers were assigned to haul fertilizer, lime and livestock feed among other commodities. No cleaning was necessary for carrying different commodities because the cars always carried the same thing.

Gene Green


stevelucas3 <stevelucas3@...>
 

Gene--

This is very useful info. Not because I'm modelling the CGW, but rather because your posting mentions different cars being assigned to assigned service within a small grouping of otherwise similar cars. You've given me a precedent for my own road.

Thanks for the help,

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "bierglaeser" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "stevelucas3" <stevelucas3@> wrote:

I was looking for a new STMFC project last night, when I happened upon an excellent HO Intermountain ACF covered hopper car kit that I'd squirreled away. Just a nice model, though one has to follow the instructions Very Carefully. Very Carefully!

In 1956, I'm assuming that the most common usage of these cars would have been for bulk cement. But how about bulk loading diatomite or talc as well? Could a car be loaded with either cement, talc, or diatomite without needing to be cleaned extensively between loads? And can anyone reference an on-line photo of a weathered talc or diatomite-service covered hopper?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.





Steve,
Don't know which road you are modeling but perhaps the CGW's experience might be useful to you.

The CGW had 210 covered hoppers but only 82 were assigned to cement service - 31 to Des Moines and 51 to Mason City, Iowa. Other covered hoppers were assigned to haul fertilizer, lime and livestock feed among other commodities. No cleaning was necessary for carrying different commodities because the cars always carried the same thing.

Gene Green


stevelucas3 <stevelucas3@...>
 

Garth,

Judging by the use of PS covered hoppers, the WP started using them later than other roads. But this is useful info just the same.

Thank you.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> wrote:

Steve,

On the Western Pacific, the first covered hoppers were 37' PS-1s. Most,
if not all, were assigned to carry ground limestone from western Utah.

AFAIK, covered hoppers were more often assigned to the same commodity
for years at a time. This avoided contamination and the need for cleaning.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff
--- In STMFC@..., "stevelucas3" <stevelucas3@> wrote:

I was looking for a new STMFC project last night, when I happened upon an excellent HO Intermountain ACF covered hopper car kit that I'd squirreled away. Just a nice model, though one has to follow the instructions Very Carefully. Very Carefully!

In 1956, I'm assuming that the most common usage of these cars would have been for bulk cement. But how about bulk loading diatomite or talc as well? Could a car be loaded with either cement, talc, or diatomite without needing to be cleaned extensively between loads? And can anyone reference an on-line photo of a weathered talc or diatomite-service covered hopper?

Thanks in advance,

Steve Lucas.


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Betz wrote:
It was a long time later that other products began to be shipped in covered hoppers and they gained their "ubiquitous" status.
Certainly you're right that most roads were primarily using covered hoppers for cement in the first half of the 1950s, but there was chemical and other shipping almost at the outset. One way to recognize that is the numbers of leased covered hoppers fielded by SHPX, GATX (with marks GACX), NAHX and others, some no doubt in cement service but many leased to chemical companies.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


cornbeltroute <cornbeltroute@...>
 

. . . perhaps the CGW's experience might be useful to you. The CGW had 210 covered hoppers but only 82 were assigned to cement service. . . . <
Gene, hi,

Since you're talking CGW (covered) hoppers, I thought this an opportune time to ask if you have information about this animal I found in the 1943 CBC:

FILES > CGW HT Welded Blt 4-1931

It's a 1931 P-S built all-welded 70-ton hopper. There's another photo showing only the trucks and underframe, described thus: "All-welded tubular center sill and bolster of C.G.W. 70-ton hopper car."

I'm wondering if this design ever came into production, and if not, why not? Thought you might have insight. The car is described as lightweight. (And, for a modeler, it's a very neat looking car.)

I have high interest in the Iowa Class battleships. Iowa was laid down at the New York Navy Yard in June 1940. I recall reading that Iowa's 27 million pound hull was assembled with a combination of riveting and welding because welding was not yet thoroughly evaluated and trusted at the time.

This all-welded CGW hopper was built nine years before Iowa was laid down. If the design did not flourish, I'm thinking perhaps the railroad industry was not willing to accept an all-welded car at this stage. . . .

Just curious. Thanks much,

Brian

Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa


bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

Brian,
We have now strayed into open hoppers, not covered.

I really can't tell you much about those all-welded hoppers. There were 5 altogether. The remaining 295 in the order were of riveted construction. My inference has always been that those 5 hoppers were experimental. Subsequent CGW open-top hopper orders were for riveted cars.

The C&NWHS might have the car cards for these 5 hoppers. Knowing when they were retired might be very informative. I know that the C&NWHS archivist is up to his ears right now so I won't ask him to search for the cards.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., "cornbeltroute" <cornbeltroute@...> wrote:

. . . perhaps the CGW's experience might be useful to you. The CGW had 210 covered hoppers but only 82 were assigned to cement service. . . . <
Gene, hi,

Since you're talking CGW (covered) hoppers, I thought this an opportune time to ask if you have information about this animal I found in the 1943 CBC:

FILES > CGW HT Welded Blt 4-1931

It's a 1931 P-S built all-welded 70-ton hopper. There's another photo showing only the trucks and underframe, described thus: "All-welded tubular center sill and bolster of C.G.W. 70-ton hopper car."

I'm wondering if this design ever came into production, and if not, why not? Thought you might have insight. The car is described as lightweight. (And, for a modeler, it's a very neat looking car.)

I have high interest in the Iowa Class battleships. Iowa was laid down at the New York Navy Yard in June 1940. I recall reading that Iowa's 27 million pound hull was assembled with a combination of riveting and welding because welding was not yet thoroughly evaluated and trusted at the time.

This all-welded CGW hopper was built nine years before Iowa was laid down. If the design did not flourish, I'm thinking perhaps the railroad industry was not willing to accept an all-welded car at this stage. . . .

Just curious. Thanks much,

Brian

Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa


Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
 

Jim, I was under the impression the first dedicated use covered hoppers were for Carbon Black, ie the early 30's. Seems to me
there was quite a discussion of these cars on this list when models of the Carbon Black cars were issued a couple of years ago.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Doug Harding wrote:
Jim, I was under the impression the first dedicated use covered hoppers were for Carbon Black, ie the early 30's.
Back in 1911, Anheuser Busch built such a car for malt service.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


stevelucas3 <stevelucas3@...>
 

Circa 1916, the GTR built an experimental steel-frame boxcar with hinged floors and hoppers. It was designed to carry grain from Midland, ON, to Portland, ME. The floor over the hoppers could be swung upwards and secured against the inside of the side sheathing to allow the car to carry coal on the return movement from Portland, ME, to Island Pond, VT., and points west.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Doug Harding wrote:
Jim, I was under the impression the first dedicated use covered
hoppers were for Carbon Black, ie the early 30's.
Back in 1911, Anheuser Busch built such a car for malt service.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history