gondolas w/ cement cannisters


Tim O'Connor
 

Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.

Tim O'Connor


Al and Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Tim - Unless you're doing a partial load you would never see them. If the air-activated containers it's 2 semicircles of wood per container. If rectangular ones it's just wood blocking appropriate to the size and quantity. - Al

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:17 PM
Subject: [STMFC] gondolas w/ cement cannisters



Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.

Tim O'Connor


proto48er
 

Tim & Al -

I have an erection drawing for the 6-cannister NYC cars around here somewhere. These cars had wood floors and four 6" X 6" steel angles, 24" long each, curved to fit the outer diameter of the round air-activated cement containers, attached to the flooring with four bolts each. A "top view" NYC diagram of the 6-container cars can be found here:

<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-g43.gif>

The NYC erection drawing came from Bob Parri, who obtained it from Lance Vail back in the late 1980's.

However, the 5-container NYC cars had larger capacity containers. They were taller than the 6-container car containers, but they were the same outside diameter. The NYC USRA steel gons modified to handle these 5-container cars apparently had steel floors installed in them. This was done about 1947 or so. I have no idea what the steel floor looked like in these later cars, and have asked here to no avail. I believe that the LV and D&H cars with air-activated cement containers had these larger (taller) containers.

I believe that all of these air-activated containers were made by AC&F, since they were lettered "The LCL Company, AC&F Lessor". Perhaps the modifications to the gons were also done at AC&F?? If so, perhaps Ed Hawkins might be able to help here!

There are some aerial photos of the Jersey shore areas where these NYC cars frequented, and some of the cars are empty. I have not been able to locate those photos again after exhaustive searching - and asking here!

Al is correct that the NYC USRA gons with (12) rectangular brick containers had small wood dividers in the floors, but they also had guide assemblies riveted to the car sides - making the sides have a sea of rivets!

I have completed brass models of the 6-container cement car and the 12-container brick car, but have not started on the 5-container cement car for lack of information on how the steel floor sheets were arranged. Would love to see a photo of one of these cars with the steel floor!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "Al and Patricia Westerfield" <westerfield@...> wrote:

Tim - Unless you're doing a partial load you would never see them. If the air-activated containers it's 2 semicircles of wood per container. If rectangular ones it's just wood blocking appropriate to the size and quantity. - Al
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:17 PM
Subject: [STMFC] gondolas w/ cement cannisters



Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.

Tim O'Connor





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


MDelvec952
 

I hate to admit this since time is tight lately and I don't have a slide scanner, but I have photos that will help you.? One is of a DL&W car that's derailed and on its side with the containers in it, and the photographer was looking straight into the top of the car -- couldn't ask for a better shot.? I printed this one from a negative in a private collection many years ago, so I'll scan it next time I'm home and sitting.? It clearly shows four steel supports that bolted to the car sides that supported the sides of the canisters.



I also shot slides of a few rotting DL&W ACF cement-canister gondolas for a presentation to Steamtown and elsewhere to save the cars. My effort led to the corporate lawyers owning the property?and?not wanting to bother to hastily and quietly scrap them.? But I did photograph them thoroughly, and?over the?floors?were flat steel rings about 3" wide that represented a canister?footprint. These gons were ACF-built, but converted at DL&W's Keyser Valley Shops for cement canisters, so these cannot be counted on as a standard for the other roads.



I also have photos of former-NYC fishbelly-side gons?lettered for and in service on the DL&W.? Equipment drawings make no reference as to why these are on the DL&W, so any insight there would be appreciated.? Normally, wrecked replacements are a reason, but to my knowledge DL&W canister cars weren't interchanged to other line-haul roads.? DL&W moved cement from the mills on the Bangor & Portland branch directly to tidewater where the contents were blown into covered lighters.? Cement for interchange was shipped in covered hoppers, and in bags within boxcars.



Lastly, whilst visiting the former ACF Plant in Berwick, Pa., in the 1990s?I was quite suprised to find?a genuine canister sitting next to a building. Painted light blue, it's some sort of storage container for a heating system.? But it's outdoors and easily seen from the road?within the plant and measurable. I wonder how many recognize it for what it was. These photos are slides as well.



Keep hounding me off list 'till I scan at least the overhead photo?????????????????????????? ....Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: proto48er <atkott@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, Sep 17, 2009 3:17 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: gondolas w/ cement cannisters







Tim & Al -

I have an erection drawing for the 6-cannister NYC cars around here somewhere. These cars had wood floors and four 6" X 6" steel angles, 24" long each, curved to fit the outer diameter of the round air-activated cement containers, attached to the flooring with four bolts each. A "top view" NYC diagram of the 6-container cars can be found here:

<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-g43.gif>

The NYC erection drawing came from Bob Parri, who obtained it from Lance Vail back in the late 1980's.

However, the 5-container NYC cars had larger capacity containers. They were taller than the 6-container car containers, but they were the same outside diameter. The NYC USRA steel gons modified to handle these 5-container cars apparently had steel floors installed in them. This was done about 1947 or so. I have no idea what the steel floor looked like in these later cars, and have asked here to no avail. I believe that the LV and D&H cars with air-activated cement containers had these larger (taller) containers.

I believe that all of these air-activated containers were made by AC&F, since they were lettered "The LCL Company, AC&F Lessor". Perhaps the modifications to the gons were also done at AC&F?? If so, perhaps Ed Hawkins might be able to help here!

There are some aerial photos of the Jersey shore areas where these NYC cars frequented, and some of the cars are empty. I have not been able to locate those photos again after exhaustive searching - and asking here!

Al is correct that the NYC USRA gons with (12) rectangular brick containers had small wood dividers in the floors, but they also had guide assemblies riveted to the car sides - making the sides have a sea of rivets!

I have completed brass models of the 6-container cement car and the 12-container brick car, but have not started on the 5-container cement car for lack of information on how the steel floor sheets were arranged. Would love to see a photo of one of these cars with the steel floor!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "Al and Patricia Westerfield" <westerfield@...> wrote:

Tim - Unless you're doing a partial load you would never see them. If the air-activated containers it's 2 semicircles of wood per container. If rectangular ones it's just wood blocking appropriate to the size and quantity. - Al
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:17 PM
Subject: [STMFC] gondolas w/ cement cannisters



Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.

Tim O'Connor







Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Delvecchio wrote:
Lastly, whilst visiting the former ACF Plant in Berwick, Pa., in the 1990s?I was quite suprised to find?a genuine canister sitting next to a building. Painted light blue, it's some sort of storage container for a heating system.? But it's outdoors and easily seen from the road?within the plant and measurable. I wonder how many recognize it for what it was. These photos are slides as well.
When I was there in the 1990s with Ed Kaminski, we too saw it and certainly knew what it was. I took a couple of shots of it. They are floating somewhere in my slide collection <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


proto48er
 

Mike -

I sure would like to see each of those photos! Wow! Consider yourself HOUNDED!!

Here is the link to an NYC diagram for the 5-container car (air-activated cement containers):

<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-g73.gif>

(99) of these 5-container cars were converted from USRA steel gons in March, 1946.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., MDelvec952@... wrote:

I hate to admit this since time is tight lately and I don't have a slide scanner, but I have photos that will help you.? One is of a DL&W car that's derailed and on its side with the containers in it, and the photographer was looking straight into the top of the car -- couldn't ask for a better shot.? I printed this one from a negative in a private collection many years ago, so I'll scan it next time I'm home and sitting.? It clearly shows four steel supports that bolted to the car sides that supported the sides of the canisters.



I also shot slides of a few rotting DL&W ACF cement-canister gondolas for a presentation to Steamtown and elsewhere to save the cars. My effort led to the corporate lawyers owning the property?and?not wanting to bother to hastily and quietly scrap them.? But I did photograph them thoroughly, and?over the?floors?were flat steel rings about 3" wide that represented a canister?footprint. These gons were ACF-built, but converted at DL&W's Keyser Valley Shops for cement canisters, so these cannot be counted on as a standard for the other roads.


Keep hounding me off list 'till I scan at least the overhead photo?????????????????????????? ....Mike


Charles Hladik
 

Tim,
I thought that Rich Yoder did some of these.
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 9/18/2009 8:11:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bigwiggs@... writes:




Tim,

Late to the game here, but Bob Anson has built some in 2-rail O-scale. He
lives up in Jax. Maybe someone on this list knows how to contact him. I
can't find his email address.

Davo in Orlando

-----Original Message-----

1a. gondolas w/ cement cannisters
Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" _timboconnor@timboconnor_
(mailto:timboconnor@...) cf5250
Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:17 pm ((PDT))

Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.

Tim O'Connor


David Wiggs
 

Tim,

Late to the game here, but Bob Anson has built some in 2-rail O-scale. He lives up in Jax. Maybe someone on this list knows how to contact him. I can't find his email address.

Davo in Orlando

-----Original Message-----

1a. gondolas w/ cement cannisters
Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" timboconnor@... cf5250
Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:17 pm ((PDT))


Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.

Tim O'Connor


Tim O'Connor
 

Yes I know. In fact Bob printed some beautiful HO decals for the
cement containers. That is why I was looking for photos/drawings
showing the bracing arrangement. I now have both, thanks very
much everyone!

Tim O'Connor

At 9/18/2009 08:10 PM Friday, you wrote:
Tim,

Late to the game here, but Bob Anson has built some in 2-rail O-scale. He lives up in Jax. Maybe someone on this list knows how to contact him. I can't find his email address.

Davo in Orlando


Gene <losgatos48@...>
 

Anson assembled a couple of Parri "kits" and did custom art for them. I have several sets with DL&W lettering in 1/48 scale.

Gene Deimling

--- In STMFC@..., "David" <bigwiggs@...> wrote:

Tim,

Late to the game here, but Bob Anson has built some in 2-rail O-scale. He lives up in Jax. Maybe someone on this list knows how to contact him. I can't find his email address.

Davo in Orlando

-----Original Message-----

1a. gondolas w/ cement cannisters
Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" timboconnor@... cf5250
Date: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:17 pm ((PDT))


Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.

Tim O'Connor


Al and Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Mike - Hound, hound. - Al

----- Original Message -----
From: MDelvec952@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: gondolas w/ cement cannisters




I hate to admit this since time is tight lately and I don't have a slide scanner, but I have photos that will help you.? One is of a DL&W car that's derailed and on its side with the containers in it, and the photographer was looking straight into the top of the car -- couldn't ask for a better shot.? I printed this one from a negative in a private collection many years ago, so I'll scan it next time I'm home and sitting.? It clearly shows four steel supports that bolted to the car sides that supported the sides of the canisters.

I also shot slides of a few rotting DL&W ACF cement-canister gondolas for a presentation to Steamtown and elsewhere to save the cars. My effort led to the corporate lawyers owning the property?and?not wanting to bother to hastily and quietly scrap them.? But I did photograph them thoroughly, and?over the?floors?were flat steel rings about 3" wide that represented a canister?footprint. These gons were ACF-built, but converted at DL&W's Keyser Valley Shops for cement canisters, so these cannot be counted on as a standard for the other roads.

I also have photos of former-NYC fishbelly-side gons?lettered for and in service on the DL&W.? Equipment drawings make no reference as to why these are on the DL&W, so any insight there would be appreciated.? Normally, wrecked replacements are a reason, but to my knowledge DL&W canister cars weren't interchanged to other line-haul roads.? DL&W moved cement from the mills on the Bangor & Portland branch directly to tidewater where the contents were blown into covered lighters.? Cement for interchange was shipped in covered hoppers, and in bags within boxcars.

Lastly, whilst visiting the former ACF Plant in Berwick, Pa., in the 1990s?I was quite suprised to find?a genuine canister sitting next to a building. Painted light blue, it's some sort of storage container for a heating system.? But it's outdoors and easily seen from the road?within the plant and measurable. I wonder how many recognize it for what it was. These photos are slides as well.

Keep hounding me off list 'till I scan at least the overhead photo?????????????????????????? ....Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: proto48er <atkott@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, Sep 17, 2009 3:17 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: gondolas w/ cement cannisters

Tim & Al -

I have an erection drawing for the 6-cannister NYC cars around here somewhere. These cars had wood floors and four 6" X 6" steel angles, 24" long each, curved to fit the outer diameter of the round air-activated cement containers, attached to the flooring with four bolts each. A "top view" NYC diagram of the 6-container cars can be found here:

<http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-g43.gif>

The NYC erection drawing came from Bob Parri, who obtained it from Lance Vail back in the late 1980's.

However, the 5-container NYC cars had larger capacity containers. They were taller than the 6-container car containers, but they were the same outside diameter. The NYC USRA steel gons modified to handle these 5-container cars apparently had steel floors installed in them. This was done about 1947 or so. I have no idea what the steel floor looked like in these later cars, and have asked here to no avail. I believe that the LV and D&H cars with air-activated cement containers had these larger (taller) containers.

I believe that all of these air-activated containers were made by AC&F, since they were lettered "The LCL Company, AC&F Lessor". Perhaps the modifications to the gons were also done at AC&F?? If so, perhaps Ed Hawkins might be able to help here!

There are some aerial photos of the Jersey shore areas where these NYC cars frequented, and some of the cars are empty. I have not been able to locate those photos again after exhaustive searching - and asking here!

Al is correct that the NYC USRA gons with (12) rectangular brick containers had small wood dividers in the floors, but they also had guide assemblies riveted to the car sides - making the sides have a sea of rivets!

I have completed brass models of the 6-container cement car and the 12-container brick car, but have not started on the 5-container cement car for lack of information on how the steel floor sheets were arranged. Would love to see a photo of one of these cars with the steel floor!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "Al and Patricia Westerfield" <westerfield@...> wrote:
>
> Tim - Unless you're doing a partial load you would never see them. If the air-activated containers it's 2 semicircles of wood per container. If rectangular ones it's just wood blocking appropriate to the size and quantity. - Al
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tim O'Connor
> To: STMFC@...
> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 2:17 PM
> Subject: [STMFC] gondolas w/ cement cannisters
>
>
>
> Has anyone seen a good photo looking down on one of the D&H
> or Lehigh Valley or other gondolas equipped to carry LCL cement
> containers? I want to model a couple and I'd like to know what
> kind of bracing was used to hold the cannisters in place.
>
> Tim O'Connor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Mike Kmetz
 

In N scale, Micro-Trains just announced that they are releasing two models of the NYC car. The cars that Micro-Trains is offering are good stand-ins. The cars numbered 501218 and 501226 are correct for NYC Lot 656-G. The prototype cars were originally built in 1927 by GACC in Lot 557-G, 500 cars. They were 46' (interior length) as opposed to the 50' model and were steel, straight-sided with fishbelly center sill. The model has 14 panels; the prototype had 13 panels. A vertical staff brake wheel was mounted at one end. In 1937 East Buffalo shops modified 30 of these cars to carry six air-activated containers and the cars were renumbered 501212-501241.

The containers were painted an oxide red color, not black. In fact, the car should probably be freight car red (brown). The NYC did not begin painting gondolas black until 1956. It is uncertain whether these cars ever got repainted into the black scheme.
It is too bad MTL did not paint the containers red and add the copious small lettering that is plainly visible in prototype photos, even through the rectangular openings. Since the lettering is absent, it will be easy for the modeler to correct the color of the containers.

To further improve the accuracy of these cars a modeler might want to add the support structures that were mounted to the floor and top rails and add the five large rectangular openings on both sides of the car. These were for access to the loading and unloading devices – the containers stayed in the cars. The brake wheel should be modified as well.

An additional note. In 1946 the NYC had Avis modify 60 more cars from Lot 557-G plus 40 cars from Lot 377-G (essentially the same type of 46' gondola) into Lot 755-G. These cars carried the same type of container, but carried only five per car instead of six. Similar supports were added to the floors and side rails – the containers were spaced farther apart. There were four large rectangular opening on each side for servicing the containers. These cars were numbered 501640-501739. Again, both the containers and cars were red, not black.

Can anyone point me to color photos of the prototype cars?
Any comments about the car color?

--Mike

--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:

Tim & Al -

I have an erection drawing for the 6-cannister NYC cars around here somewhere. These cars had wood floors and four 6" X 6" steel angles, 24" long each, curved to fit the outer diameter of the round air-activated cement containers, attached to the flooring with four bolts each. A "top view" NYC diagram of the 6-container cars can be found here:


Charles Hladik
 

Terry,
That's good info. Now, the NYC panel side hoppers were what color in
48?
I've read that all the open cars were red, but I thought that the hoppers
were built in black.
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 3/3/2010 4:46:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
trlink@... writes:





----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Link" <_trlink@... (mailto:trlink@...) >


----- Original Message -----
From: "MichaelK" <_kmetz@... (mailto:kmetz@...) >
In N scale, Micro-Trains just announced that they are releasing two
models
of the NYC car. The cars that Micro-Trains is offering are good
stand-ins.
The cars numbered 501218 and 501226 are correct for NYC Lot 656-G. In
1937
East Buffalo shops modified 30 of these cars to carry six air-activated
containers and the cars were renumbered 501212-501241.

The containers were painted an oxide red color, not black. In fact, the
car
should probably be freight car red (brown). The NYC did not begin
painting
gondolas black until 1956. It is uncertain whether these cars ever got
repainted into the black scheme.
The color of the car depends on what era it represents. If they are
lettered to reflect the East Buffalo 1937 modifications -
then the cars should be BLACK. If they are lettered to represent a repaint
between February 1941 and June 1956 - then they should be freight car red.

Terry Link





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Terry Link
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Link" <trlink@...>


----- Original Message -----
From: "MichaelK" <kmetz@...>
In N scale, Micro-Trains just announced that they are releasing two models
of the NYC car. The cars that Micro-Trains is offering are good stand-ins.
The cars numbered 501218 and 501226 are correct for NYC Lot 656-G. In 1937
East Buffalo shops modified 30 of these cars to carry six air-activated
containers and the cars were renumbered 501212-501241.

The containers were painted an oxide red color, not black. In fact, the car
should probably be freight car red (brown). The NYC did not begin painting
gondolas black until 1956. It is uncertain whether these cars ever got
repainted into the black scheme.


The color of the car depends on what era it represents. If they are
lettered to reflect the East Buffalo 1937 modifications -
then the cars should be BLACK. If they are lettered to represent a repaint
between February 1941 and June 1956 - then they should be freight car red.


Terry Link


Terry Link
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <RUTLANDRS@...>


Terry,
That's good info. Now, the NYC panel side hoppers were what color in
48?
I've read that all the open cars were red, but I thought that the hoppers
were built in black.

When the panel sides were applied - the cars were black. If the car was repainted anytime after 1941 - they would have been red - however - I don't believe too many would have been repainted red. Some cars had the panel sides removed and replaced with flat panels.

Terry Link


Mike Kmetz
 

I think the photo you remember might be in New York Central Lightning Stripes, by Sweetland, published by Morning Sun Books. This is the first [unnumbered] volume.
The top picture on page 33 shows a long string of those container gondolas. Some cars have the taller 5 containers and some have the shorter 6 containers. The picture below that is a slightly different view and shows a clearer image of the first car. The containers are covered with spilled cement but are clearly red and so is the car.

Thanks to Larry Weinberg for directing us to the photos.
--Mike Kmetz

--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:
There are some aerial photos of the Jersey shore areas where these NYC cars frequented, and some of the cars are empty. I have not been able to locate those photos again after exhaustive searching - and asking here!