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Western Prototype Modelers Meet 2009


Andy Carlson
 

I attended the WPM meet yesterday, and was impressed by the large number of well built models of locomotives and freight cars on display. I was struck by the TOTAL lack of any UP equipment (except some "patched SP engines) on display. Are Santa Fe and Southern Pacific modelers more social by nature than the Borg modelers?????
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Carlson wrote:
I attended the WPM meet yesterday, and was impressed by the large number of well built models of locomotives and freight cars on display. I was struck by the TOTAL lack of any UP equipment (except some "patched SP engines) on display. Are Santa Fe and Southern Pacific modelers more social by nature than the Borg modelers?????
Naw. It's just that modelers have long memories, and plenty are still boycotting UP. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

Don't know about models, but since Dick Harley was one of the
presenters, at least one UP modeler was there.

I attended the WPM meet yesterday, and was impressed by the large
number of well built models of locomotives and freight cars on
display. I was struck by the TOTAL lack of any UP equipment (except
some "patched SP engines) on display. Are Santa Fe and Southern
Pacific modelers more social by nature than the Borg modelers?????
Naw. It's just that modelers have long memories, and plenty are
still boycotting UP. <g>

Tony Thompson


Dick Harley
 

On Sun Sep 20, 2009 Tony Thompson wrote:

>>
Naw. It's just that modelers have long memories, and plenty are still
boycotting UP. <g>
<<

While Tony's comment is notably made in some jest (and he and I
highly respect each other), the amount of animosity shown toward the
UP (and by extension its modelers and proponents) continues to amaze
me. And you know there is more under the surface than is shown in
public. Life goes on, and some of us do what we want.

Tim will no doubt get some flack for referring to me as a "modeler",
but that's another story. And definitely not pertinent to this list.

Back to freight cars,
Dick Harley


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dick Harley wrote:
While Tony's comment is notably made in some jest (and he and I highly respect each other), the amount of animosity shown toward the UP (and by extension its modelers and proponents) continues to amaze me. And you know there is more under the surface than is shown in public. Life goes on, and some of us do what we want.
It was often said at the time of UP's misguided and ill-fated effort to make money from models of UP equipment that they were going to reap a tidal wave of resentment and even anger from modelers. At the time, I doubted if that would be true, but in fact I think it did happen, and remains true in many quarters. And hey, it only cost 'em around $4 million in legal fees to be straightened out.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

Americans hate a winner :-) Secretly I model UP trains, but they're all
before 1966... Long before the Borg took over.

It was often said at the time of UP's misguided and ill-fated
effort to make money from models of UP equipment that they were going
to reap a tidal wave of resentment and even anger from modelers. At
the time, I doubted if that would be true, but in fact I think it did
happen, and remains true in many quarters. And hey, it only cost 'em
around $4 million in legal fees to be straightened out.

Tony Thompson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Americans hate a winner :-)
I guess Tim means that UP took over SP and lots of other roads -- but the resentment being discussed comes from their efforts to make money on their copyrights (and to claim copyrights they turned out not to own). in the law cases they were involved in regarding their claimed copyrights, they got their head handed to them.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Dick Harley
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

>>
I guess Tim means that UP took over SP and lots of other roads -- but
the resentment being discussed comes from their efforts to make money
on their copyrights (and to claim copyrights they turned out not to
own).
<<

Actually, being on the UP side of the street, I see modeler
resentment from both factors at work. Certainly, the licensing
program made animosity toward the UP much worse, but it is not the
only reason. As I said, life goes on. Some people harbor bad
feelings and some don't. We're not likely to change that here.

Cheers,
Dick Harley


ken_olson54022 <kwolson@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Dick Harley <dick.harley4up@...> wrote:

Tony Thompson wrote:

>>
I guess Tim means that UP took over SP and lots of other roads -- but
the resentment being discussed comes from their efforts to make money
on their copyrights (and to claim copyrights they turned out not to
own).
<<

Actually, being on the UP side of the street, I see modeler
resentment from both factors at work. Certainly, the licensing
program made animosity toward the UP much worse, but it is not the
only reason. As I said, life goes on. Some people harbor bad
feelings and some don't. We're not likely to change that here.

Cheers,
Dick Harley
What I find sort of ironic is that it was the owner of Mike's Train House (MTH) who took on the U.P. and spent HIS time and money getting things resolved. Yet if I can believe the comments that I've read on the web about his HO scale products it's just about the only thing that he's ever done right.....

Ken Olson


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

I guess Tim means that UP took over SP and lots of other roads -- but the resentment being discussed comes from their efforts to make money on their copyrights (and to claim copyrights they turned out not to own). in the law cases they were involved in regarding their claimed copyrights, they got their head handed to them.
----- Original Message -----

Can you cite a case or so I can look them up?

KL


Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Hmmm, donning my judges robes, there appears to be a few comments on the STMFC regarding the past blunderous, idiotic moves by UP regarding trade marks with respect to MRing, etc. As many are aware, I created a Yahoo group to discuss aspects of trade mark, copyright, licensing etc...the LICEN group. It is still available for discussion if anyone feels the need for such. In the meantime, the STMFC is not the place for such discussions.

Removing my judges robes...Aaaah, much cooler...I will add that I feel sad that there weren't significant UP modeling activities at the Western meet. If I had been there...and if I could have figured out how to transport models, that would not have been the case. For those that lament that UP models weren't there, fear not for Cocoa Beach...because they WILL be there.

Interesting. On the one hand, UP acts with seeming arrogance and stupidity. On the other hand, they are the only major RR that runs a steam program.

Kinda odd...no UP models in the western meet, many in the Florida meet.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Brian Carlson <brian@...>
 

But were there any N&W Hoppers at WPM?

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Mike
Brock


Kinda odd...no UP models in the western meet, many in the Florida meet.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Can you cite a case or so I can look them up?
Kurt, this isn't the list for such a topic, though editorials in places like TRAINS magazine did present the outcomes. I'd guess the on-line RR magazine index would be a place you can find those pieces. It was also discussed at length on Mike Brock's LICEN (licensing) Yahoo forum, which you could join to search those archives.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Well, thanks anyway, but I'm not going to join another Yahoo group just to learn the second part of Union Pacific vs. _________.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

Kurt, this isn't the list for such a topic, though editorials
in places like TRAINS magazine did present the outcomes. I'd guess the
on-line RR magazine index would be a place you can find those pieces.
It was also discussed at length on Mike Brock's LICEN (licensing)
Yahoo forum, which you could join to search those archives.


William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hi Group,

Heading for the clink here... Judge, have mercy...

It seems to me that the UP is the only major railroad to not 100%
dieselized.

If I remember correctly, the 844 (or 8444) was never stricken from the
roster. This, from a Santa Fe fan, is an amazing fact as the ATSF
wrote off steam locomotion in 1959. Yes, I know that the last fires
were dropped in 1958, but it was not until 1959 that the great
scrapping of the best locomotives known to the US were sent to scrap.

And one has to admire a railroad that believes that steam era freight
cars should be coupled to a high stepping 4-8-4.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Sep 21, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Mike Brock wrote:

Hmmm, donning my judges robes, there appears to be a few comments on
the
STMFC regarding the past blunderous, idiotic moves by UP regarding
trade
marks with respect to MRing, etc. As many are aware, I created a
Yahoo group
to discuss aspects of trade mark, copyright, licensing etc...the LICEN
group. It is still available for discussion if anyone feels the need
for
such. In the meantime, the STMFC is not the place for such
discussions.

Removing my judges robes...Aaaah, much cooler...I will add that I
feel sad
that there weren't significant UP modeling activities at the Western
meet.
If I had been there...and if I could have figured out how to transport
models, that would not have been the case. For those that lament
that UP
models weren't there, fear not for Cocoa Beach...because they WILL
be there.

Interesting. On the one hand, UP acts with seeming arrogance and
stupidity.
On the other hand, they are the only major RR that runs a steam
program.

Kinda odd...no UP models in the western meet, many in the Florida
meet.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner



Tim O'Connor
 

Kurt, I got the long version from someone involved (and who
contemplated putting up $100,000 in legal fees as a -small-
part of the legal action against UP) but I don't recall this
ever going to trial, so you would not find the case. Basically
MTH retained some very heavy hitter lawyers and UP backed down
and modified its licensing -- I don't think they ever admitted
they don't own any of the trademarks. I have noticed products
that claim CSXT as well as UP licenses so UP is not the only
company to require licenses; MTH basically got them to drop
the license fees for model trains. (Books and videos, I dunno.)

Tim O'Connor

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Can you cite a case or so I can look them up?
Kurt, this isn't the list for such a topic, though editorials
in places like TRAINS magazine did present the outcomes. I'd guess the
on-line RR magazine index would be a place you can find those pieces.
It was also discussed at length on Mike Brock's LICEN (licensing)
Yahoo forum, which you could join to search those archives.

Tony Thompson


jerryglow2
 

Don't forget the origin of this meet was the Western PACIFIC in which I suspect a resentment toward the UP. As a MP modeler, I sharred that resentment with a WP modeler friend. We especially resented how they included our merged roads in their copyright scheme even though the heralds and names had for all purposes been retired although they did occasionally use them to keep their use of them "active"

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:

I attended the WPM meet yesterday, and was impressed by the large number of well built models of locomotives and freight cars on display. I was struck by the TOTAL lack of any UP equipment (except some "patched SP engines) on display. Are Santa Fe and Southern Pacific modelers more social by nature than the Borg modelers?????
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


jerryglow2
 

Maybe it was a move to redirect the resentment toward him and practices he conducted.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "ken_olson54022" <kwolson@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Dick Harley <dick.harley4up@> wrote:

Tony Thompson wrote:

>>
I guess Tim means that UP took over SP and lots of other roads -- but
the resentment being discussed comes from their efforts to make money
on their copyrights (and to claim copyrights they turned out not to
own).
<<

Actually, being on the UP side of the street, I see modeler
resentment from both factors at work. Certainly, the licensing
program made animosity toward the UP much worse, but it is not the
only reason. As I said, life goes on. Some people harbor bad
feelings and some don't. We're not likely to change that here.

Cheers,
Dick Harley
What I find sort of ironic is that it was the owner of Mike's Train House (MTH) who took on the U.P. and spent HIS time and money getting things resolved. Yet if I can believe the comments that I've read on the web about his HO scale products it's just about the only thing that he's ever done right.....

Ken Olson


Tim O'Connor
 

I wouldn't read anything into the WPM meet model displays -- UP is
very popular with many modelers and Walthers just announced a batch
of UP passenger trains. California has always been home to a bevy of
SP and ATSF modelers, with WP and UP running well behind. I remember
going to an NMRA regional in Austin TX in 1989 and over 90% of the
models on display were SP even though Austin was on the MP mainline
to Mexico and MKT ran through there too. And the layout tours featured
GN and ATSF but no SP layouts. Go figure.

Tim O'Connor

Maybe it was a move to redirect the resentment toward him and practices he conducted.
Jerry Glow


Carl J. Marsico <Carlmarsico@...>
 

Jerry Glow wrote:
 
"We especially resented how they included our merged roads in their copyright scheme even though the heralds and names had for all purposes been retired although they did occasionally use them to keep their use of them "active"

UP actually hurt their protectable interest (if any) in the CNW, SP, and DRGW schemes by "patching" the motive power from these roads, which I'd say is rebuttable evidence of an intent to abandon these trademarks.  Although UP freight cars of predecessor roads dating back to the acquisitions of MP and WP are still out there in good numbers, this is clearly due to the logistics of repainting an entire freight car fleet vs. an intent to "honor the fallen flag", and could presumably be proven with internal documentation in regards to the guidelines to repaint freight cars, or depositions of supervisory staff familiar with these procedures.
 
If anything, UP seemed to get "nostalgic" after they figured this out and started keeping a few token units and painting the SD70ACe's in the "Heritage" schemes, notably in "hybrid" paint schemes in what appears to be an attempt to protect multiple paint schemes of a road on a single unit.  (This would have been a great topic to cover in law school during our Trademarks and Copyrights course.)
 
I'll join the ranks of people having contempt for "the Borg" litigating what I consider to be frivolous claims against smaller companies that don't have the resources to defend these suits, and subsequently turning around and having their in-house attorney gripe when I filed a cross-claim against them for contribution in a Small Claims property damage suit (about $2,000.00 if I remember correctly) filed against both one of their employees driving a company truck and our client, driving a different vehicle.  (The subsequent attorney assigned to the file was a very reasonable person, and I never had a problem with him)  I also called them out once for trespassing on my property (company truck in driveway of our condo building), which at that time, was adjacent to their former CNW mainline.
 
On the other hand, UP played a big role even in the pre-merger CNW that I grew up with and model, so a "boycott" of UP would be pretty much impossible for me unless I switched roads.
 
CJM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]