Topics

Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1


gary laakso
 

Has anyone else found that the floor does not fit any of the dimensions of the body, that it just falls inside? The floor piece is shorter and much more narrow then the cavity it is suppose to fill. LOL, how can a 36 foot long boxcar have a 34 foot long floor casting? Has anyone added styrene to get the floor to fit as opposed to sink inside the body? I have not a floor so small before!


gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


StephanP <sparachuk@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

Has anyone else found that the floor does not fit any of the dimensions of the body, that it just falls inside? The floor piece is shorter and much more narrow then the cavity it is suppose to fill. LOL, how can a 36 foot long boxcar have a 34 foot long floor casting? Has anyone added styrene to get the floor to fit as opposed to sink inside the body? I have not a floor so small before!


gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
Gary: Sorry to be so slow replying to your post but if you are going to try salvaging the floor casting, you will likely have to cut it in three pieces. That way you can ensure the bolsters will be in the right place. I've had floor casting too long before and I couldn't just cut them shorter. Your situation sounds familiar as well. You can't just a foot to each. Good luck.

Stephan Parachuk
Toronto


StephanP <sparachuk@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "StephanP" <sparachuk@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@> wrote:

Has anyone else found that the floor does not fit any of the dimensions of the body, that it just falls inside? The floor piece is shorter and much more narrow then the cavity it is suppose to fill. LOL, how can a 36 foot long boxcar have a 34 foot long floor casting? Has anyone added styrene to get the floor to fit as opposed to sink inside the body? I have not a floor so small before!


gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
Gary: Sorry to be so slow replying to your post but if you are going to try salvaging the floor casting, you will likely have to cut it in three pieces. That way you can ensure the bolsters will be in the right place. I've had floor castings too long before and I couldn't just cut them shorter. Your situation sounds familiar as well. You can't just add a foot to each. Good luck.

Stephan Parachuk
Toronto
Gary: I thought maybe the letter made more sense without the errors.

Stephan Parachuk
Toronto


jerryglow2
 

How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up and locked" manufacturing.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

Has anyone else found that the floor does not fit any of the dimensions of the body, that it just falls inside? The floor piece is shorter and much more narrow then the cavity it is suppose to fill. LOL, how can a 36 foot long boxcar have a 34 foot long floor casting? Has anyone added styrene to get the floor to fit as opposed to sink inside the body? I have not a floor so small before!


gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...



Charles Hladik
 

Tom,
An error is still an error, especially if it is as glaring as I have
read in the posts..
Chuck Hladik


In a message dated 10/1/2009 10:45:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
tgmadden@... writes:




How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not Sunshine for
errors like this? This is just plain "head up and locked" manufacturing.

Because such errors in a plastic kit are built/designed in, and every kit
will have them. With resin kits they are typically vagaries of the casting
process and affect only a few kits. Yes, there have certainly been poorly
designed resin kits, but in principle every resin kit ends up in the hands of
a builder who is can cope with such shortcomings. Also, it's one thing to
have 200 - 300 resin kits with errors, and quite another to put 10,000 -
20,000 defective plastic kits out there.

Tom Madden


pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up and locked" manufacturing.
Because such errors in a plastic kit are built/designed in, and every kit will have them. With resin kits they are typically vagaries of the casting process and affect only a few kits. Yes, there have certainly been poorly designed resin kits, but in principle every resin kit ends up in the hands of a builder who is can cope with such shortcomings. Also, it's one thing to have 200 - 300 resin kits with errors, and quite another to put 10,000 - 20,000 defective plastic kits out there.

Tom Madden


al_brown03
 

I have this kit, am ready to start some new projects. Let me see if mine has the same problem.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., "pullmanboss" <tgmadden@...> wrote:

How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up and locked" manufacturing.
Because such errors in a plastic kit are built/designed in, and every kit will have them. With resin kits they are typically vagaries of the casting process and affect only a few kits. Yes, there have certainly been poorly designed resin kits, but in principle every resin kit ends up in the hands of a builder who is can cope with such shortcomings. Also, it's one thing to have 200 - 300 resin kits with errors, and quite another to put 10,000 - 20,000 defective plastic kits out there.

Tom Madden


Paul Lyons
 

Tom,



Very eloquent! You should have bee a defense attorney.



Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, Oct 1, 2009 7:44 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1







How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up and locked" manufacturing.
Because such errors in a plastic kit are built/designed in, and every kit will have them. With resin kits they are typically vagaries of the casting process and affect only a few kits. Yes, there have certainly been poorly designed resin kits, but in principle every resin kit ends up in the hands of a builder who is can cope with such shortcomings. Also, it's one thing to have 200 - 300 resin kits with errors, and quite another to put 10,000 - 20,000 defective plastic kits out there.

Tom Madden


Tim O'Connor
 

How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not
Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up
and locked" manufacturing.
Jerry Glow
Jerry

Resin kits (esp Martin's) often have parts that don't fit well
together. I think if you check the archives you'll find we have
discussed this in the past.

What was the saying? Gettysburg was the price the South paid for
having Robert E. Lee? Well, these resin issues are the price we
pay for having such a tremendous number of prototype models from
Sunshine... errors and all.

Tim O'Connor


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not
Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up
and locked" manufacturing.
Jerry Glow
Jerry

Resin kits (esp Martin's) often have parts that don't fit well
together. I think if you check the archives you'll find we have
discussed this in the past.

What was the saying? Gettysburg was the price the South paid for
having Robert E. Lee? Well, these resin issues are the price we
pay for having such a tremendous number of prototype models from
Sunshine... errors and all.
----- Original Message -----

That assumes that having a large number of kits is fundamentally incompatible with kits that are engineered well enough to be buildable (*).

I do not believe that assumption is still valid.

KL


(*) I have made enough models - plastic, resin, and hybrid - to have a realistic understanding of what "buildable" means, so please save yourself the effort writing about how resin kits aren't Athearn blue boxes, etc., etc.


Tim O'Connor
 

Kurt, although many resin kits (and plastic kits) have problems,
I have yet to encounter a Sunshine kit that is not buildable. Hard
to build, yes, but not unbuildable.

Very, very few model trains are perfectly engineered. The Gould
(now Tichy) kits came close. Kadee PS-1 and PS-2 cars come close.
Only a few resin kits (from Railyard and SC&F) come close.

And of course, if you don't like Sunshine kits, don't buy 'em. I
don't think Martin's going to re-engineer them now.

YMMV.

----- Original Message -----

That assumes that having a large number of kits is fundamentally
incompatible with kits that are engineered well enough to be buildable (*).

I do not believe that assumption is still valid.

KL


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Whatever your definition of "buildable", poorly engineered and ill-fitting kits do not get better simply because there is a wide variety of them. Regardless of the appeal of the subject, needing to scratchbuild a new floor and underframe to replace the item you paid to acquire reduces the overall quality of the kit significantly. This is an area that demands our scrutiny, not our apologies.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor

Kurt, although many resin kits (and plastic kits) have problems,
I have yet to encounter a Sunshine kit that is not buildable. Hard
to build, yes, but not unbuildable.

Very, very few model trains are perfectly engineered. The Gould
(now Tichy) kits came close. Kadee PS-1 and PS-2 cars come close.
Only a few resin kits (from Railyard and SC&F) come close.

And of course, if you don't like Sunshine kits, don't buy 'em. I
don't think Martin's going to re-engineer them now.


chapbob@...
 

After reading the ongoing passionate discussion about Sunshine L&N boxcar
kit #85.1, I checked my model which I built a while back. Yes, the floor
was a bit undersized, and I had to add a few styrene strip shims to bring it
to the size of the carbody. This added step took me all of one or two
minutes to complete. Sure, it would be nice if all parts in every kit fit
perfectly, but I'm struggling to see what all the fuss is about.

For me, I'm delighted and amazed that Sunshine chose to produce a model of
this car; the result beats anything I could have scratchbuilt.

Bob Chapman

In a message dated 9/26/2009 11:27:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Gary
Laasko writes:

Has anyone else found that the floor does not fit any of the dimensions of
the body, that it just falls inside? The floor piece is shorter and much
more narrow then the cavity it is suppose to fill. LOL, how can a 36 foot
long boxcar have a 34 foot long floor casting? Has anyone added styrene
to get the floor to fit as opposed to sink inside the body? I have not a
floor so small before!


pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

I can't get over the feeling that Kurt does not fully understand the resin casting process and the vagaries that can arise from time to time with that medium.
The problem described with the floor can and does happen quite a bit with resin. Granted rarely to the extent indicated, but it does happen.
I also believe that a certain amount of accomodation has to be made for the reality of a small family business that has grown bigger than ever expected. I know how hard and long the Lofton's and the Westerfield's have to work to get their products out the door and I always wonder how much better the "complainers" could really do.
Finally, rather than cut the floor apart or scratch build a replacement, why not simply return the defective part with a description of the issue and I'm sure that Martin would address the problem fairly quickly.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

Whatever your definition of "buildable", poorly engineered and ill-fitting
kits do not get better simply because there is a wide variety of them.
Regardless of the appeal of the subject, needing to scratchbuild a new floor
and underframe to replace the item you paid to acquire reduces the overall
quality of the kit significantly. This is an area that demands our
scrutiny, not our apologies.

KL


----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor

Kurt, although many resin kits (and plastic kits) have problems,
I have yet to encounter a Sunshine kit that is not buildable. Hard
to build, yes, but not unbuildable.

Very, very few model trains are perfectly engineered. The Gould
(now Tichy) kits came close. Kadee PS-1 and PS-2 cars come close.
Only a few resin kits (from Railyard and SC&F) come close.

And of course, if you don't like Sunshine kits, don't buy 'em. I
don't think Martin's going to re-engineer them now.


gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@...> wrote:

Finally, rather than cut the floor apart or scratch build a replacement, why not simply return the defective part with a description of the issue and I'm sure that Martin would address the problem fairly quickly.
Pierre Oliver
Indeed. I purchased a CMO USRA rebuild and received the wrong sides with my model. I sent just the sides back to Martin with a note, expecting replacements within the expected 6-9 month timeframe. Instead, within a couple of weeks I received essentially an entirely new kit within the mail (new sides, roof, underframe and ends) with a note stating that he couldn't replace just the sides as different parts poured at different times wouldn't match.

I would send the underframe back to Martin, and I believe he will make it right. Just my experience as a satisfied customer of Sunshine.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Iowa City, Iowa


Paul Lyons
 

Bob Chapman said


Sure, it would be nice if all parts in every kit fit
perfectly, but I'm struggling to see what all the fuss is about.





HELLO BOB! Please go back and re-read the original emal. The floor is two foot short, which puts the truck blosters a foot out of position.?I personally, like the person who wrote the email,?want to be a little more acurate than this with my models. Sooo, it is a bit more than adding the few stryrene strips you suggest. However, I do agree that I am not sure what the fuss is about--send it back to Martin and he will replace it.



Paul Lyons

Laguna Niguel, CA?

-----Original Message-----
From: chapbob@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, Oct 2, 2009 8:58 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1






After reading the ongoing passionate discussion about Sunshine L&N boxcar
kit #85.1, I checked my model which I built a while back. Yes, the floor
was a bit undersized, and I had to add a few styrene strip shims to bring it
to the size of the carbody. This added step took me all of one or two
minutes to complete. Sure, it would be nice if all parts in every kit fit
perfectly, but I'm struggling to see what all the fuss is about.

For me, I'm delighted and amazed that Sunshine chose to produce a model of
this car; the result beats anything I could have scratchbuilt.

Bob Chapman



In a message dated 9/26/2009 11:27:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Gary
Laasko writes:

Has anyone else found that the floor does not fit any of the dimensions of
the body, that it just falls inside? The floor piece is shorter and much
more narrow then the cavity it is suppose to fill. LOL, how can a 36 foot
long boxcar have a 34 foot long floor casting? Has anyone added styrene
to get the floor to fit as opposed to sink inside the body? I have not a
floor so small before!


Tim O'Connor
 

Paul, a 2' difference doesn't sound like resin shrinkage -- it
sounds like the wrong floor. Incorrect packing unfortunately is
not an uncommon problem if you have a lot of Sunshine kits. I've
had to write for replacement parts too. For example I bought an
SLSF single sheathed kit with steel sides, but the kit was packed
with wood sheathed sides. And I had built an ATSF flat car before
I realized it was the wrong body for the kit.

Tim

HELLO BOB! Please go back and re-read the original emal. The floor is two foot short, which puts the truck blosters a foot out of position.?I personally, like the person who wrote the email,?want to be a little more acurate than this with my models. Sooo, it is a bit more than adding the few stryrene strips you suggest. However, I do agree that I am not sure what the fuss is about--send it back to Martin and he will replace it.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA?


Paul Lyons
 

Tim,



Agreed! Thus my point, just send it back to Martin and he will make it right.



Paul Lyons

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor <@timboconnor>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, Oct 2, 2009 10:05 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1








Paul, a 2' difference doesn't sound like resin shrinkage -- it
sounds like the wrong floor. Incorrect packing unfortunately is
not an uncommon problem if you have a lot of Sunshine kits. I've
had to write for replacement parts too. For example I bought an
SLSF single sheathed kit with steel sides, but the kit was packed
with wood sheathed sides. And I had built an ATSF flat car before
I realized it was the wrong body for the kit.

Tim

HELLO BOB! Please go back and re-read the original emal. The floor is two foot short, which puts the truck blosters a foot out of position.?I personally, like the person who wrote the email,?want to be a little more acurate than this with my models. Sooo, it is a bit more than adding the few stryrene strips you suggest. However, I do agree that I am not sure what the fuss is about--send it back to Martin and he will replace it.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA?


charles slater
 

Ill fitting parts is usually not Martin's falt, many times it can be traced back to the pattern maker not engineerg it correctly or taking a short cut by using a part from another kit and modifing it to fit the new car instead of just making a new part.

I have done this myself using floors and roofs from other similar cars to keep from making new ones, and sometimes we have no information on exactly what a floor for a certain car actually looks like.

But if the floor is two feet short there is a real problem, it sounds like the car had the wrong floor put into the kit. On the cars I do for Martin, all the parts are cast at the same time in the same rubber mold so if there is any shrinkage all the parts still fit.

Martin has in the past put togather a kit by taking ends, floor, roof and sides all from other kits and creating a new car, and not always testing the fit or even building a finished model from the parts.
At any rate Martin will fix the problem just call him and he will take care of it.

Charlie Slater

Pattern Maker


To: STMFC@...
From: fleeta@...
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:57:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not
Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up
and locked" manufacturing.
Jerry Glow
Jerry

Resin kits (esp Martin's) often have parts that don't fit well
together. I think if you check the archives you'll find we have
discussed this in the past.

What was the saying? Gettysburg was the price the South paid for
having Robert E. Lee? Well, these resin issues are the price we
pay for having such a tremendous number of prototype models from
Sunshine... errors and all.
----- Original Message -----

That assumes that having a large number of kits is fundamentally
incompatible with kits that are engineered well enough to be buildable (*).

I do not believe that assumption is still valid.

KL

(*) I have made enough models - plastic, resin, and hybrid - to have a
realistic understanding of what "buildable" means, so please save yourself
the effort writing about how resin kits aren't Athearn blue boxes, etc.,
etc.









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charles slater
 

I just checked and I do have that kit and my floor is about .040" short, and I will just shim the ends when I assemble it.

Charlie Slater

To: stmfc@...
From: atsfcondr42@...
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:47:12 -0700
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1


Ill fitting parts is usually not Martin's falt, many times it can be traced back to the pattern maker not engineerg it correctly or taking a short cut by using a part from another kit and modifing it to fit the new car instead of just making a new part.

I have done this myself using floors and roofs from other similar cars to keep from making new ones, and sometimes we have no information on exactly what a floor for a certain car actually looks like.

But if the floor is two feet short there is a real problem, it sounds like the car had the wrong floor put into the kit. On the cars I do for Martin, all the parts are cast at the same time in the same rubber mold so if there is any shrinkage all the parts still fit.

Martin has in the past put togather a kit by taking ends, floor, roof and sides all from other kits and creating a new car, and not always testing the fit or even building a finished model from the parts.
At any rate Martin will fix the problem just call him and he will take care of it.

Charlie Slater

Pattern Maker


To: STMFC@...
From: fleeta@...
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:57:27 -0400
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine L&N Boxcar kit # 85.1





----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
How come we can crucify Intermountain (and others) but not
Sunshine for errors like this? This is just plain "head up
and locked" manufacturing.
Jerry Glow
Jerry

Resin kits (esp Martin's) often have parts that don't fit well
together. I think if you check the archives you'll find we have
discussed this in the past.

What was the saying? Gettysburg was the price the South paid for
having Robert E. Lee? Well, these resin issues are the price we
pay for having such a tremendous number of prototype models from
Sunshine... errors and all.
----- Original Message -----

That assumes that having a large number of kits is fundamentally
incompatible with kits that are engineered well enough to be buildable (*).

I do not believe that assumption is still valid.

KL

(*) I have made enough models - plastic, resin, and hybrid - to have a
realistic understanding of what "buildable" means, so please save yourself
the effort writing about how resin kits aren't Athearn blue boxes, etc.,
etc.









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