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Wine Tank Cars
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soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
Thanks, Richard. Force of habit, I guess. The first place I ran into these cars (well, the Class X variant with the underframe)the Gregg reprint of the 1906 Car Builder's Dictionary, lists them as 6000 gal., obviously just the nominal capacity. Sorry, I don't have these, so I can't help.They're not lost, just MIA. They'll turn up. Dennis |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Oct 27, 2009, at 8:02 PM, <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
So when would a car like this have been removed from service?Most surviving UTL Class V cars were retired in the 1930s, though some were put back into service during WW II and a few lasted into the early 1950s. In any case, most of the survivors were restricted to carrying "non-regulatory" commodities - i.e., liquids that wouldn't explode, burn, or corrode. Richard Hendrickson |
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Steve SANDIFER
So when would a car like this have been removed from service?
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______________ J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer mailto:steve.sandifer@... Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918 Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417 ----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:19 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wine Tank Cars Richard Hendrickson wrote: > Note that this car was built - and probably converted to a three > compartment car - before the 1917 tank car specs. were adopted by > the ARA. I'm sure this is true, but lest it become accepted that double rivet-row joints = post-1917 tank cars, I'd point out that the double riveting was recommended as early as 1904, and at least some buyers of tank cars did order their cars that way. The 1910 adoption of these various "Class II" MCB recommendations as standard provided that HEAD seams (the joining of the tank ends to the cylindrical body) SHOULD be double-riveted, but that was not yet required until 1917. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Note that this car was built - and probably converted to a three compartment car - before the 1917 tank car specs. were adopted by the ARA.I'm sure this is true, but lest it become accepted that double rivet-row joints = post-1917 tank cars, I'd point out that the double riveting was recommended as early as 1904, and at least some buyers of tank cars did order their cars that way. The 1910 adoption of these various "Class II" MCB recommendations as standard provided that HEAD seams (the joining of the tank ends to the cylindrical body) SHOULD be double-riveted, but that was not yet required until 1917. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Thanks Richard. So that is an excellent spotting feature to
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recognize a pre-1917 multi-dome rebuild tank car! :-) Tim At 10/27/2009 04:25 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
On Oct 26, 2009, at 8:59 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:The majority of 3-dome tank car photos I have show twoNote that this car was built - and probably converted to a three |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Oct 26, 2009, at 9:04 PM, soolinehistory wrote:
Richard,No guesswork necessary. It was definitely a 6,500 gal. Type V (the smallest of both the Type V and Type X cars were 6,500 gal., not 6,000 gal.). The internal diaphragms were even riveted into the tank at exactly the same place as the original rivet courses for the three section tank, so it would be a pretty easy conversion. How many such cars there were is another question, however. Certainly not many. I've never seen an in-service photo of one, though I do have one photo of a Type X converted to a two compartment car (with domes the same size but one compartment larger than the other). Sorry, I don't have these, so I can't help. Richard Hendrickson |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Oct 26, 2009, at 8:59 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
The majority of 3-dome tank car photos I have show twoNote that this car was built - and probably converted to a three compartment car - before the 1917 tank car specs. were adopted by the ARA. The intermediate rivet courses were in exactly the same location as they were on the original single dome tank, so the easy way to convert the car would have been to fit single diaphragms between the compartments at the point where the tank and bottom sheet were already drilled for rivets. Later conversions done in the 1920s and '30s had two diaphragms between each compartment with a small air space in between, as required by the more rigorous 1917 specs. Richard Hendrickson |
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soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
Richard,http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/016Web.jpgSteve, that is a UTL Van Dyke tank (note the heavy bottom sheet with Want to hazard a guess if it's a 6, 8, or 10,000 gallon car? If it's a 6,000 gal, it would be an interesting conversion for the Blackstone Models frameless NG car that has supposedly been announced. From the look of the side bearings, it doesn't appear to be a 10,000 gal car; photos show those bolster / saddle castings to have differently shaped side bearing extensions. By the way, when we were both talking to Bill McKown about doing Van Dyke cars in brass, did you ever get a set (2) of my photos of the one used as a storage tank at an oil jobber? I now can't seem to locate the originals, and would sure like to have scans, if you have the images. Dennis |
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The majority of 3-dome tank car photos I have show two
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rivet seams between each pair of domes where the interior bulkheads are attached -- Yet a couple of them show (like this car) only a single rivet seam. Wouldn't each of the compartments require a separate bulkhead, instead of sharing a single bulkhead? Is it because this car is a rebuild? Tim O'Connor At 10/26/2009 10:10 PM Monday, you wrote:
I forgot you can't include attachments.<steve.sandifer@...> 10/26/09 8:05 PM >>> |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Oct 26, 2009, at 6:05 PM, <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
I forgot you can't include attachments.Steve, that is a UTL Van Dyke tank (note the heavy bottom sheet with the stub center sills and draft gear pockets still attached) that had been converted to a three compartment car, as attested by the smaller end domes compared to the center dome. Richard Hendrickson |
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I forgot you can't include attachments.<steve.sandifer@...> 10/26/09 8:05 PM >>> What is this http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/016Web.jpg Steve, Given the reinforced bottom sheet that sticks out beyond the end, and the hardware for the draft gear and truck bolsters, that looks like a UTL "Van Dyke" (Type V). It was clearly a single dome car that has been modified by the addition of 2 more domes. Very cool! Regards Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL |
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Rod Miller
I'll look forward to that issue even more than usual!
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Thank you Richard. Rod Richard Hendrickson wrote: On Oct 26, 2009, at 5:40 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:Rod Miller wrote:Correct. My clinic on wine tank cars has more than fifty photos of such cars. In fact, the opening photo is the one Rod cites of the SP yard at Fresno, where I count about forty wine tank cars in that one view. After I present the clinic at Naperville and then again at Cocoa Beach, all of the photos and an expanded version of the text in the handout will go to Ed and Pat at RPC for a future edition of Railway Prototype Cyclopedia.Directly behind the loco are at least two (the center two) wine tankThere were single-dome wine cars as well as multiple-dome cars. |
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Richard Hendrickson
On Oct 26, 2009, at 5:40 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:
Rod Miller wrote:Correct. My clinic on wine tank cars has more than fifty photos ofDirectly behind the loco are at least two (the center two) wine tankThere were single-dome wine cars as well as multiple-dome such cars. In fact, the opening photo is the one Rod cites of the SP yard at Fresno, where I count about forty wine tank cars in that one view. After I present the clinic at Naperville and then again at Cocoa Beach, all of the photos and an expanded version of the text in the handout will go to Ed and Pat at RPC for a future edition of Railway Prototype Cyclopedia. Richard Hendrickson |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Steve Sandifer wrote:
What is thisIt's a three-dome tank car, but the rolling qualities look like they would be really terrible <g>. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Steve SANDIFER
I forgot you can't include attachments.
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What is this http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/016Web.jpg ______________ J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer mailto:steve.sandifer@... Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918 Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417 ----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:40 PM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Wine Tank Cars Rod Miller wrote: > Directly behind the loco are at least two (the center two) wine tank > cars. It isn't possible to see if the first car has additional > domes. I suspect all four are a block of wine cars. There were single-dome wine cars as well as multiple-dome cars. > If someone knows where I can find out more about wine transport by > rail (beyond Jim Lancaster's Chateau > Martin site and what has been discussed here previously), I'd > appreciate them letting me know. Richard Hendrickson may want to chime in here--because I know he's preparing to give a clinic at Naperville ENTIRELY about wine tank cars, and a written version of it will be published in due course. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Rod Miller wrote:
Directly behind the loco are at least two (the center two) wine tank cars. It isn't possible to see if the first car has additional domes. I suspect all four are a block of wine cars.There were single-dome wine cars as well as multiple-dome cars. If someone knows where I can find out more about wine transport by rail (beyond Jim Lancaster's ChateauRichard Hendrickson may want to chime in here--because I know he's preparing to give a clinic at Naperville ENTIRELY about wine tank cars, and a written version of it will be published in due course. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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