Tangent G-70-12 for other classes


Lee Gautreaux
 

Tony,

It's been well established that the new Tangent AC&F gon is accurate for SP's G-70-12 class, but are there any significant differences between the G-70-12 and the -8 class? They appear to be identical designs with wood floors and drop ends. Also, I know that the G-70-16 class differs in steel floor vs. wood floor and the strapped ends. Are the any other differences that you can tell?

Thanks,

Lee A. Gautreaux - The Bayou Foamer
http://www.railgoat.railfan.net/


Ed Hawkins
 

On Nov 2, 2009, at 7:36 AM, jjgotrox wrote:

Tony,

It's been well established that the new Tangent AC&F gon is accurate
for SP's G-70-12 class, but are there any significant differences
between the G-70-12 and the -8 class?
Lee,
The bodies of the cars were identical. The G-70-8 cars built in 1951
were originally painted black with white stencils. Technically, the
Tangent model is actually more accurate for the G-70-8 because these
prototype cars came with U.S. Gypsum brake steps that the model
replicates nicely. The G-70-12 cars had Kerrigan brake steps, which
were a rectangular open grid similar to Apex Tri-Lok. In addition to
coverage of these SP gondola cars in Tony's book, RP CYC Vol. 19 has a
comprehensive 53-page article covering all prototype cars in which the
model was based (PRR G31B and other copies built by AC&F), including
similar riveted cars and others having steel floors.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ed Hawkins wrote:
The bodies of the cars were identical. The G-70-8 cars built in 1951 were originally painted black with white stencils. Technically, the Tangent model is actually more accurate for the G-70-8 because these prototype cars came with U.S. Gypsum brake steps that the model replicates nicely. The G-70-12 cars had Kerrigan brake steps, which were a rectangular open grid similar to Apex Tri-Lok. In addition to coverage of these SP gondola cars in Tony's book, RP CYC Vol. 19 has a comprehensive 53-page article covering all prototype cars . . .
Ed is correct, as photos in my book show. The other, very minor difference is that different draft gear was used in the two classes, and careful examination of the draft gear opening; in the car end will show the difference, but this is below the level of significance that any but the most meticulous modeler would recognize.
I hope that Tangent will presently release a black G-70-8 too!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Lee Gautreaux wrote:
Tony,
It's been well established that the new Tangent AC&F gon is accurate for SP's G-70-12 class, but are there any significant differences between the G-70-12 and the -8 class? They appear to be identical designs with wood floors and drop ends. Also, I know that the G-70-16 class differs in steel floor vs. wood floor and the strapped ends. Are the any other differences that you can tell?
The G-70-16 is certainly similar, but it has a different end (look at the topmost and bottom ribs), including a wheeled hand brake, and lacks the little tie-down loops on the top chord of the sides. It's also a fixed-end car, thus lacking the heavy corner posts of the drop-end cars, and doesn't have the tall end sill of the G-70-8 and -12 cars. The Tangent model could certainly stand in for a G-70-16 but to my eye would be significantly different.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


sctry
 

I am totally confused with the various subclasses, welded, rivets, reverse dreadnaught, obverse dreadnaught ends, 2 gussets or 7 gussets, wood floor, NSF, etc. because on close examination of the Tangent box it is clearly stated that the all new model is a "DROP BOTTOM" gondola!!!! [NOT] ProtoPolice, Hello?

J. Greedy

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Lee Gautreaux wrote:
Tony,
It's been well established that the new Tangent AC&F gon is accurate
for SP's G-70-12 class, but are there any significant differences
between the G-70-12 and the -8 class? They appear to be identical
designs with wood floors and drop ends. Also, I know that the
G-70-16 class differs in steel floor vs. wood floor and the strapped
ends. Are the any other differences that you can tell?
The G-70-16 is certainly similar, but it has a different end
(look at the topmost and bottom ribs), including a wheeled hand brake,
and lacks the little tie-down loops on the top chord of the sides.
It's also a fixed-end car, thus lacking the heavy corner posts of the
drop-end cars, and doesn't have the tall end sill of the G-70-8 and
-12 cars. The Tangent model could certainly stand in for a G-70-16 but
to my eye would be significantly different.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John Greedy wrote:
I am totally confused with the various subclasses, welded, rivets, reverse dreadnaught, obverse dreadnaught ends, 2 gussets or 7 gussets, wood floor, NSF, etc. because on close examination of the Tangent box it is clearly stated that the all new model is a "DROP BOTTOM" gondola!!!! [NOT] ProtoPolice, Hello?
What box are you looking at? It sure does not say that on the box for the SP car.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


sctry
 

My WABASH model Tangent box stock #10712-05 clearly states "...70 ton DROP BOTTOM gondola car..."

J. Greedy

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

John Greedy wrote:
I am totally confused with the various subclasses, welded, rivets,
reverse dreadnaught, obverse dreadnaught ends, 2 gussets or 7
gussets, wood floor, NSF, etc. because on close examination of the
Tangent box it is clearly stated that the all new model is a "DROP
BOTTOM" gondola!!!! [NOT] ProtoPolice, Hello?
What box are you looking at? It sure does not say that on the box
for the SP car.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Tim O'Connor
 

Tony,

John refers to the text on the bottom of the box that gives a
very brief description of the product. It does say "drop-bottom".
It's obviously meant to say "drop-end".

Tim O'Connor

At 11/2/2009 11:49 PM Monday, you wrote:
My WABASH model Tangent box stock #10712-05 clearly states "...70 ton DROP BOTTOM gondola car..."

J. Greedy

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

John Greedy wrote:
I am totally confused with the various subclasses, welded, rivets,
reverse dreadnaught, obverse dreadnaught ends, 2 gussets or 7
gussets, wood floor, NSF, etc. because on close examination of the
Tangent box it is clearly stated that the all new model is a "DROP
BOTTOM" gondola!!!! [NOT] ProtoPolice, Hello?
What box are you looking at? It sure does not say that on the box
for the SP car.

Tony Thompson


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
John refers to the text on the bottom of the box that gives a very brief description of the product. It does say "drop-bottom". It's obviously meant to say "drop-end".
Yes, so it does. One HOPES it's a typo <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


bnsd45
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:
John refers to the text on the bottom of the box that gives a very
brief description of the product. It does say "drop-bottom". It's
obviously meant to say "drop-end".
Yes, so it does. One HOPES it's a typo <g>.
Yes, it is a typo that escaped me as well as a few on this list who were helping Tangent Scale Models!

I suppose it is a good thing you guys can only find defects in the writing on the bottom of the box?

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models


pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Give it time David, give it time. VBG
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "bnsd45" <bnsd45@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@> wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:
John refers to the text on the bottom of the box that gives a very
brief description of the product. It does say "drop-bottom". It's
obviously meant to say "drop-end".
Yes, so it does. One HOPES it's a typo <g>.
Yes, it is a typo that escaped me as well as a few on this list who were helping Tangent Scale Models!

I suppose it is a good thing you guys can only find defects in the writing on the bottom of the box?

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models


WILLIAM PARDIE
 

There has been quite a discussion on the similarities between the
G-70-12 and the G-70-8 gondolas for the Southern Pacific. Would
someone be kind enough tolist the differences between the G-70-12 and
the G-70-9 gondolas.
They were both built in 1953.

Thanks in advance.

Bill Pardie

On Nov 2, 2009, at 8:50 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Ed Hawkins wrote:
The bodies of the cars were identical. The G-70-8 cars built in 1951
were originally painted black with white stencils. Technically, the
Tangent model is actually more accurate for the G-70-8 because these
prototype cars came with U.S. Gypsum brake steps that the model
replicates nicely. The G-70-12 cars had Kerrigan brake steps, which
were a rectangular open grid similar to Apex Tri-Lok. In addition to
coverage of these SP gondola cars in Tony's book, RP CYC Vol. 19 has
a comprehensive 53-page article covering all prototype cars . . .
Ed is correct, as photos in my book show. The other, very
minor difference is that different draft gear was used in the two
classes, and careful examination of the draft gear opening; in the car
end will show the difference, but this is below the level of
significance that any but the most meticulous modeler would recognize.
I hope that Tangent will presently release a black G-70-8 too!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:
There has been quite a discussion on the similarities between the G-70-12 and the G-70-8 gondolas for the Southern Pacific. Would someone be kind enough to list the differences between the G-70-12 and the G-70-9 gondolas. They were both built in 1953.
Extremely similar--only really noticeable feature is the brake step on the end, which was Gypsum expanded-metal style on the -8 and Kerrigan (like Apex) rectangular grid on the -12. But they WERE NOT built at the same time. The -8 cars were built in 1951, the -12s in 1953. If you want months, I can supply.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


George Hollwedel
 

Tony,

He asked about the G-70-9, didn't they have deeper sides?

George Hollwedel

--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tangent G-70-12 for other classes
To: STMFC@...
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 6:57 PM
WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:
There has been quite a discussion on the similarities
between the 
G-70-12 and the G-70-8 gondolas for the Southern
Pacific.  Would 
someone be kind enough to list the differences between
the G-70-12 
and the G-70-9 gondolas. They were both built in
1953.

     Extremely similar--only really
noticeable feature is the brake 
step on the end, which was Gypsum expanded-metal style on
the -8 and 
Kerrigan (like Apex) rectangular grid on the -12. But they
WERE NOT 
built at the same time. The -8 cars were built in 1951, the
-12s in 
1953. If you want months, I can supply.

Tony Thompson         
   Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705     
   www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



------------------------------------

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Tim O'Connor
 

The SP G-70-9 was a 65' gondola -- Athearn produced their
AAR 65' gondola lettered as a G-70-9 built in 1953. They are
very similar (the model and prototype) but not exactly alike.

Tim O'Connor

At 11/5/2009 09:28 PM Thursday, you wrote:
Tony,

He asked about the G-70-9, didn't they have deeper sides?

George Hollwedel


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

George Hollwedel wrote:
He asked about the G-70-9, didn't they have deeper sides?
Good catch, George, I'd missed the G-70-9 part. But no, the -9 cars were 65-foot mill gons, nothing like the G-70-8 or -12. The recent Athearn 65-ft. car in HO is a good replica of those cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tony;

How long did the G-70-8 remain in black paint?

When were both repainted in the later scheme?

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tangent G-70-12 for other classes



WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:
There has been quite a discussion on the similarities between the
G-70-12 and the G-70-8 gondolas for the Southern Pacific. Would
someone be kind enough to list the differences between the G-70-12 and
the G-70-9 gondolas. They were both built in 1953.
Extremely similar--only really noticeable feature is the brake step on the
end, which was Gypsum expanded-metal style on the -8 and Kerrigan (like Apex)
rectangular grid on the -12. But they WERE NOT built at the same time. The -8
cars were built in 1951, the -12s in 1953. If you want months, I can supply.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gatwood, Elden wrote:
How long did the G-70-8 remain in black paint? When were both repainted in the later scheme?
Whenever they needed repainting <g>, but I'd say soon after the 1956 renumbering started. SP not only renumbered the great bulk of its large fleet in the first two years of the new system, but often repainted the entire car. LIkewise, any car receiving extensive repairs would have been repainted too. In a repaint (prior to fall, 1957), the bodies would have been BCR and the medallions would have received black backgrounds.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Thanks, Tony!

Did the fall '57 "new look" go immediately to Billboard, or were there
variations in there, too? Is the Athearn billboard-painted 65-foot gon
accurately painted, as far as you can tell?

Also, I have seen a lot of 40-foot 10' IH SP box cars (as well as earlier
ATSF 40-footers) that stayed in their earlier schemes well into the 1970's.
Was this because of their later usage primarily as seasonal grain loaders
(and sitting much of their time otherwise empty), or just because the RR
didn't want to spend money on repainting eqpt that didn't have that much
longer?

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 12:55 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tangent G-70-12 for other classes



Gatwood, Elden wrote:
How long did the G-70-8 remain in black paint? When were both
repainted in the later scheme?
Whenever they needed repainting <g>, but I'd say soon after the 1956
renumbering started. SP not only renumbered the great bulk of its large fleet
in the first two years of the new system, but often repainted the entire car.
LIkewise, any car receiving extensive repairs would have been repainted too.
In a repaint (prior to fall, 1957), the bodies would have been BCR and the
medallions would have received black backgrounds.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gatwood, Elden wrote:
Did the fall '57 "new look" go immediately to Billboard, or were there variations in there, too? Is the Athearn billboard-painted 65- foot gon accurately painted, as far as you can tell?
The renumbering we SP folk all call the 1956 renumbering really started in 1955, whereas the billboard gothic lettering came in 1956. There are examples, though not many, of repainted and renumbered cars which did not get the billboard scheme. But in general, any repainted car which was renumbered can be assumed to have the billboard lettering too. The round medallion continued to be used alongside the gothic billboard until the fall of 1957, but was discontinued thereafter.

Also, I have seen a lot of 40-foot 10' IH SP box cars (as well as earlier ATSF 40-footers) that stayed in their earlier schemes well into the 1970's. Was this because of their later usage primarily as seasonal grain loaders (and sitting much of their time otherwise empty), or just because the RR didn't want to spend money on repainting eqpt that didn't have that much longer?
I'm not privy to management perspectives on this, but certainly there were older cars which got renumbering and not repainting. I can't supply reasons. But SP didn't have that much grain service, so I don't think that rationale helps much with the SP cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history